cometaryorbit

I'd imagine they would recycle spikes when it was easy to do so, but not put themselves at risk to retrieve spikes.

Yeah, the battle at the end of HoA would have left something like a million spikes behind (300,000 koloss, most but not all of whom were killed ... Say 250,000 dead ... 4 spikes each). Many of these may have been recovered by kandra and turned into Pathan earrings though.

Day 49: A-Bendalloy/F-Pewter 

(Bubble of accelerated time + store/tap muscle strength)

Ok, this is a cool combo. Similar to what Wayne has in utility (trapping an opponent in your time bubble and then using your F-power to fight them) but different enough to be interesting.

As we've seen from Wayne, A-Bendalloy is really useful for a lot of things (combat, quick disguise changes, secret conversations, way more). And F-Pewter is superstrength.

Resonance: maybe reduced "diminishing returns" loss from tapping at high rates, due to the time-nature of bendalloy?

Name: Suddensmash

Rating: 8.5/10. This is a very powerful combo. Not quite up there with the strongest Compounder combinations (steel, gold, probably pewter and zinc) or A-Pewter/F-Steel, but nonetheless extremely strong.

--

I probably will not be posting these daily for a while; I won't be on here much until I can read SP3.

I think the issue in the False Desolation was that every singer alive (except the Listeners) was made into a Regal by BAM. So while the Radiants were ridiculously superior individually, they were probably outnumbered by a colossal margin - a couple thousand Radiants and maybe 10k squires against millions, maybe tens of millions, of Regals.

And even then, I don't think the issue was that the Radiants were actually at risk of outright losing.

I think it was that:

- they couldn't protect everyone everywhere, being too outnumbered (though Oathgates and rapid flight would help a lot with that)

- and more importantly, they couldnt use the Oathpact this time. So until Melishi came up with something, there seemed no way to end the war without killing all the Regals, which as far as they knew would have meant the entire singer species (I don't think they knew the Listeners existed). The epigraphs in WoR make it sound like they thought they were going to have to, until Melishi.

3 hours ago, Vissy said:

The interesting part to me is how the timelines intersect between Stormlight and here. SA5's Prologue has Kelsier still relying on tricks.

Era 2 Mistborn is after first arc Stormlight.

RoW spoilers:

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

I agree with most of your response but not this part. Before the False Desolation most spren weren't bound, they reacted to incoming threat and started to bond just as the False Desolation was starting (just like with all Desolations)

Oh, I agree most spren weren't bound during the long peace between Aharietiam and the False Desolation. But the real Desolations would have created just as much threat, and I still don't think the Fused ever fought hundreds of highly organized 4th Ideals, except maybe in those last two or three Desolations- and likely not then, since Radiants were probably dying quick and there wasn't time between Desolations to train everybody up or rebuild the organization of the Orders.

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

How many were of 4th Ideal and above? We know 2000 Honorspren bonded during the False Desolation, and at the Feverstone Keep 100 of them left their Shardblades and Shardplates - that's at minimum 5% of all bonded who were able to climb that high in their Oaths. And I don't think many more Windrunners were able to swear 4th Ideal.

Hmmm. I had figured since all the ones in that vision had Plate, that 4th ideal was basically standard in that era. Maybe not.

But even if not, 3rd ideal likely came very quick, and a couple hundred 4th + 1500 or so 3rd + a couple hundred 1st/2nd + probably 10,000+ squires would be an insanely powerful force. And that's just one Order (admittedly, one of the most numerous ... but the Stonewards were major soldiers too, and back them up with Division artillery, Progression healing, etc...)

I mean, how numerous are the Fused? I severely doubt there's more than a few thousand, and it might even be high triple digits (there are apparently 100 "important" ones, 30 of whom are available on Roshar early in RoW).

10 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Actually, depending on how you think Feruchemy works, you could maybe get more strength off of a Brute who's tapping than a regular person, even if you can't from a Pewterarm.

Yeah. I wouldn't be surprised if Feruchemy temporarily changes your Spiritweb "code" that defines a person - I don't think Pewter Feruchemy is literally storing muscles into metal, though that's the apparent effect.

I'm still not sure if it would be stealable by Hemalurgy, though.

I'd tend to think that Feruchemy boosts are too ephemeral to steal as permanent - at best, the charge would be trapped in the spike and then immediately run out (as the pewtermind is no longer being tapped).

I think you are largely right in the big picture of her psychology and approach, but I disagree she intends to consolidate power herself - I think her comments to Dalinar about intending to be the last real Alethi monarch, and her respect for the Azish and Thaylen systems,  are honest. I think she wants something like a 19th century British constitutional monarchy system, with a strong parliament/council/something more powerful than the actual monarch.

I do think that consolidation of power is likely to be the real outcome, though, at least in the near- to medium-term.

The basis of power of traditional feudal nobility system of the hereditary high lighteyes is IMO already essentially completely broken by the loss of Alethkar's land + the rise of Radiants in warfare above dead-Shardbearers as the ultimate force + transition to a hyper-urban life in Urithiru. I don't think abolishing slavery will make it much more so (as I think it's already completely doomed regardless); but I think consolidation of power in the Kholins is the natural result of the Queen of Alethkar and two Bondsmiths, and thus leadership of the Radiants and control of Urithiru, all being close family.

The question is what will happen in the next generation...

On 6/28/2023 at 6:04 AM, alder24 said:

Moreover one of their Unmade - Ba-Ado-Mishram - was imprisoned as well. We don't know what she was doing during previous Desolations, but she was regarded as a Highprice among Odium forces. It's likely she played an important role back then, and her absence restricted Odium's forces to some degree. Another Unmade, Sja-Anat, is now plotting to change sides and join humanity in their fight against Odium. She has already acted directly against Odium by Enlightening Glys who bonded with Renaring (giving him the ability to see the future and cloud Odium's vision, which significantly impaired Odium's planning), and saved Shallan and Co from Kholinar trap. Third Unmade, the Thrill, was imprisoned within a few first months of Desolation, and is now lost. This effectively means that 3 out of 9 Unmades are unavailable to Odium and possibly a few more haven't been active yet. 

To add even more, most Fused are now insane. Repeated cycle of death and rebirth has broken their mind and they are unable to aid in most ways except for fighting (how well we don't know). This severely limits what Odium can do with them and 4500 years of waiting didn't help at all. The longer a Cognitive Shadow like Fused is alive, the more broken their mind becomes. They can't help Singers in training and rebuilding. In my opinion their presence even harms the morale of Odium’s army.

Another factor is that the True Desolation just started. In OB it was said that most of Fused haven't returned yet - this is still the case in RoW as Pursuer was just awoken and got back on Roshar. As of the end of RoW, there are still 2 types of Fused that haven't returned yet. Fused weren't fighting at full force yet.

Re-Shephir may also be unwilling to confront Radiants (or at least any group of Radiants that might include a Lightweaver) now.

The Unmade also are at risk now in a way they weren't in previous Desolations. Humans know how to imprison them now, and after Nightblood perma-killed a thunderclast at Thaylen Field, Odium might be being way more cautious with them. If Szeth had been in Kholinar, Ashertmarn would probably be gone.

Yeah. Radiants are rare, but there are not that many actually functional Fused currently available either. Only about 30% have arrived as of RoW, and if say half are nonfunctional... Odium really only has 15% of the total Fused force actually available.

And even the highly functional ones are not reliable for Odium. Leshwi outright betrayed him, Lezian ignored strategy to pursue a personal vendetta, Raboniel cared more about ending the war than which side won.

The Skybreakers and some Dustbringers are probably going to be more valuable (especially for T-Odium) than the Fused. The execution of Lezian at the end of RoW might show that T-Odium has realized that the Fused are often more a liability than an asset.

(Also, Raboniel's claims to Venli aside, 3rd+ Ideal Radiants are vastly more powerful than Fused on an individual basis. Two Surges + combination effects vs one; far more effective healing; inherent live Shardblade... at 4th ideal, Shardplate makes it ridiculously one sided.)

The Radiants developed slowly over the Desolations; in Nohadon's time, they had Radiant-style Surgebinders but not full Radiants yet. Those early Surgebinders (IMO) probably lacked things like Shardplate and the other "cousinspren" based effects (like Kaladin splitting the storm).

Full modern powered Radiants probably didn't appear until the Desolations were very close together; otherwise they would have made them far more one-sided than we see (and the Heralds basically obsolete). I'm pretty sure that the Fused never had to go up against a False Desolation-era setup with probably thousands of Radiants, mostly 4th ideal, plus more thousands of Squires, trained and organized into Orders.

That would have been very one-sided; the Fused would just have been whack-a-moled upon respawn until the singers gave up seeing these laughable failures as gods (and thus giving up their bodies).

A single 4th ideal Windrunner could probably kill a huge number of Heavenly Ones without anti-Light or similar; their Stormlight-drain fabrials wouldn't work through Shardplate, so the Windrunner is incredibly hard to hurt, while one hit to the gemheart and the Fused is dead (bypassing healing). Soulcasting Radiants in numbers would make mundane logistics essentially irrelevant for any center of power. Etc.

Day 48: A-Aluminum/F-Nicrosil

(Burn away own metals + store/tap Investiture)

...OK, wow, Aluminum Gnat with the Feruchemical ability to ... store the power to be an Aluminum Gnat. This is possibly the weakest combination there is. At least both metals are on the Spiritual/Enhancement quadrant, so it's easier to see possible Resonances.

Resonance: This one's a bit of a stretch, but ... clearing self of metals/foreign Investiture plus storing Investiture... maybe increased Investiture soul-interference? So it would be harder than default to Push on metals inside this Twinborn's body?

Name: Double Gnat? Or (if my resonance suggestion is valid) Soulblock?

Rating: 0.5/10. This is probably the second-worst possible Twinborn*, unless F-Nicrosil does something other than store your Metallic Arts powers.

*A-Duralumin/F-Nicrosil is arguably worse since it makes a much more desirable Hemalurgic victim.

Day 47: A-Iron and F-Electrum

(Pull metals + store/tap "determination")

One good but probably not quite top tier power, one very niche/weak power. Not a ton of synergy either.

Resonance: hard to see a sensible combination of pulling metals and determination. Suggestions?

Name: I got nothing

Rating: maybe 4/10, depending on Resonance or if there's a synergy I missed.

10 hours ago, Isilel said:

 

Ability not to breathe for extended periods of time would help with being a sniper. Also, in addition to the physical enhancement via hyper-oxygenation of the blood, it would also help to keep going with some otherwise debilitating/mortal wounds for as long as the stores last. After all, blood loss and even a stopped heart wouldn't be lethal if tissues could be oxygenated by other means. For that matter, outside of combat F-Cadmium would be helpful for surviving heart attacks and general circulatory system breakdowns until medical assistance can be provided as well. And shouldn't routine storing over a period of time improve one's lung capacity? It has much more potential and is much less niche than it looks at a first glance.

 

As to A-Electrum, I would claim that we got some idea of it's usefulness even in a limited context in cosmere spoiler

  Reveal hidden contents

"Sixth of the Dusk".

I don't see why the broader application on Scadrial,  with mental training and  experie

nce, can't be much more useful still. After all, we have seen how such things can make the use of A-Tin, A-Steel and A-Brass  much more flexible and nuanced than just what the mere ability to burn provides.

Ok, yeah, F-Cadmium might have much broader utility than I'd thought.

Electrum... I don't know, because

I don't know if future children of Wax and Steris would have that much chance of being Mistborn. Spook's weren't, and he was probably a stronger Mistborn - also, Beldre was a Misting, Steris isn't.

I am not sure if koloss-blooded have better muscles than default human (ie more strength per muscle mass/cross-sectional area), or just larger muscles.

Apparently the difference in musculature isn't always blatant because Elizandra could hide her koloss-blooded nature.

Day 46: A-Duralumin and F-Cadmium 

(useless without other Allomancy + store/tap oxygen or breath)

 A useless power plus a very niche power. Basically just a Gasper Ferring who gets the "badge of honor" of being a Twinborn.  Even if you can use A-duralumin while tapping a metalmind to escape the diminishing returns of tapping at high rates (as discussed earlier on this thread), this isn't a Feruchemical attribute that would really be useful for - unlike something like speed or health, oxygen you'll likely want running over long time spans rather than one huge burst.

Resonance: no idea

Name: Deep Breath? (if duralumin does work with tapping metalminds)

Rating: 1/10. Probably the third or fourth least useful combination out there, only above A-Aluminum / F-Electrum and such.

40 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

It's something anyone should be able to do with practice. It has less to do with how well you can burn Electrum and more about how well you can interpret and glean information from Electrum Shadows, which is a learned ability separate from how well you can burn it. Obviously, being able to better burn Electrum will push how far forward into the future you can see, and so being able to burn Electrum better will enable you to anticipate things further in advance, but while it boosts the ability, it isn't necessary to be able to get information from the Shadows. Non-center Ironpulling/Steelpushing is difficult because Pushing and Pulling from the center of self is a feature of the ability, you need to be very skilled (which almost certainly requires you to have your soul warped by the power) and know what to do and how to do it. For Electrum, it's something you yourself are doing separate from the ability itself, so it isn't nearly so hard, you just need to know what to do and practice. Does that make sense?

That does make sense.

The reason I'm not 100% convinced is the 'all Allomancy expands the mind to some degree' principle and the Spiritual nature of A-Electrum (theoretically, truly extreme strength in it could give the full Spiritual Realm vision, but this is probably not attainable in practice).

I'm not sure if interpreting a cloud of electrum shadows in real time is something that is possible for the average human mind, without help from your soul being warped & mind expanded from the power.

It totally could be! But I think both models (just practice is enough vs. it takes something special) are compatible with the extremely limited information we have (basically just the couple sentences in the AAs and a few WoBs, all we've seen it used for on-page is countering atium).

Hopefully we'll see it in Era 3.

49 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

And A-Electrum can be extremely useful for a Twinborn, since you can train yourself to use it extremely effectively in combat.

Quite possible. My big question is whether getting that level of use out of A-Electrum is something that basically any Electrum Misting or Twinborn can achieve with just training/practice, or if it is more of a theoretical possibility / takes exceptional skill not available to default Allomancers of that type (like non-center-of-mass Steelpushing). We know it's possible, but not how feasible / generally available it is.

Vin didn't know it could be used for anything except countering atium, despite truly exceptional levels of Allomantic intuition. But she did have 11 other metals to work with at that point.

Quote

Large stores of breath can be used to achieve oxygen doping, which will basically give you A-Petwer-esque unlimited stamina (until your breath runs out, that is), which is a huge advantage in a fight. You essentially get a tireless, unhittable opponent, which is gonna be a nightmare to beat, if you even can.

Hmmm. If that works, F-Cadmium would be way more useful / less niche than I thought. I had thought it was only useful for surviving underwater / buried / etc.

Day 45: A-Electrum and F-Iron

(See one's own future shadows + store/tap weight)

Another A-Electrum combo. That's a tricky metal, because it's potentially quite powerful but really hard to use.

Resonance: no idea. Suggestions, please?

Name: Mistborn Adventure Game says "Whimflitter". I could also suggest Fateweight?

Rating: Again, hard to rate because of A-Electrum, but F-Iron strikes me as more broadly usable than F-Cadmium, so if th e last one was 3/10, maybe 4/10?

11 hours ago, ftl said:

I think even after being released, he was held back by Preservation. Yes, Preservation was weaker, but he at least could prevent Ruin from, like, just destroying the world with a snap of his fingers; Ruin was able to intensify processes that were already there (power up the volcanoes and the mists), which would have been enough after about a year or two, but couldn't just be like "and now the oceans boil".

This is correct. Ruin needed to find and absorb the atium to super-quickly destroy the world. What we see in HoA is what he could do with the power he could get past (the remnants of) Preservation. 

HoA epigraph ch. 47

Quote

Releasing the power at the Well tipped the aforementioned balance back toward Ruin, but he was still too weak to destroy the world in the blink of an eye as he yearned to do. This weakness was caused by part of Ruin's power—his very body—having been taken and hidden from him.

HoA epigraph ch 48

Quote

Once "freed," Ruin was able to affect the world more directly. The most obvious way he did this was by making the ashmounts emit more ash and the earth begin to break apart. As a matter of fact, I believe that much of Ruin's energy during those last days was dedicated to these tasks.

17 hours ago, AllomanticChainDude said:

The Crescent and Remote Dominances, and the Southern islands, seems  to have been outside of Empire control. So Ruin could’ve taught them how to make advancements in technology.

They weren't that outside of control. Even the actual bandits/rebels out in the burnlands, while they were not directly governed by TLR, got crushed whenever they became a problem. That's where Human the koloss came from (he was a bandit leader successful enough to draw real attention).

They did have some things a bit more advanced than the FE mainstream, but not enough to make a difference. Inventing a few crude guns wouldn't make a difference against a huge koloss army led by Inquisitors, and then the knowledge would be suppressed again. That's what TLR did the first time around.

17 hours ago, AllomanticChainDude said:

I don’t think Ruin is truly malicious, but his gloating(ugh) comes across that way.

Theres a difference between Ruin the Shard itself, the power, which is not inherently evil - it's essentially entropy - and Ruin the person that we see in HoA. I think the imprisonment has warped him, not just the pressure of the Shard itself. Scadrial's destruction is "overdue" to him, and he's gloating because he's finally overcome Preservation.

 Day 44: A-Electrum and F-Cadmium

2 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

Hmmmm. This one is interesting! The thing that I’m wondering is how is this power set different than A-Tin and A-Pewter, like what Spook had?

F-Pewter is a lot different in detail from A-Pewter. On the positive side, it allows bursts of much greater strength; pewter burn/flare is equivalent to about an x2/x3 tap.

On the negative side, it doesn't give all the other benefits of A-Pewter (balance/agility, endurance/speed, general toughness - resistance to wounds, cold/heat, alcohol/toxins, etc.), and at the higher end the hugely enlarged muscles can get in your way mobility-wise.

So F-Pewter is a less broad power (since it's just muscular strength; you can't use it to endure cold or heat or walk a narrow balance beam) but stronger at the top end.

So this Twinborn couldn't really do the "jump from a second story and land with cat-like perfection" that Spook could (that used A-Pewter balance/grace), but they could lift cars and such (which Spook's Pewter strength wouldn't have been enough for).

2 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

For the name, I would think Bouncer is a pretty okay name!

Sounds good.

Sorry for the delay, a lot has been happening for me in RL.

Day 43: A-Tin and F-Pewter

(Increase all five senses + store/tap muscular strength)

An interesting combination. Two powers which I'd say are each good but not top tier for their Metallic Art (like A-Pewter/A-Steel or F-Gold/F-Steel are). Some synergy (they're both Physical powers), but not a *really* good synergy like Wax's.

Resonance: Hmmm... better resistance to sensory shock when burning tin, like the "soundsticks" used against Tin Allomancy in Era 1? Or maybe more precise proprioception (perception of body parts' position)?

Name: Muscle-eye? Anyone have a better idea?

Rating: 6/10, slightly above median. Two decent powers, with some synergy but not great synergy.

On 6/24/2023 at 5:12 AM, alder24 said:

That can't be the case. We know Rashek gained detailed understanding of Allomancy and Feruchemy while holding the power of the Well, we know he spoke directly to his friends mind and offered them immortality in exchange for their Feruchemy, a decision which they made for every Feruchemist alive - he knew they will be a threat to him, he turned every Feruchemist alive to prevent them from mixing with Allomancy.

I don't think this is correct. He got rid of Feruchemists to control information: HoA CH 65 epigraph (relevant bits, because it's a long one)

Quote

 He saw the power of Feruchemy, and rightly feared it. Many of the Terris people, he knew, would reject him as the Hero, for he didn't fulfill their prophecies well. They'd see him as a usurper who killed the Hero they sent. Which, in truth, he was.

and

Quote

 However, I think he was wise to choose as he did. Feruchemists, by the nature of their powers, have a tendency toward scholarship. With their incredible memories, they would have been very difficult to control over the centuries. Indeed, they were difficult to control, even when he suppressed them.

Sounds like the purpose was to obscure the truth about the Hero of Ages and the past generally (and to remove the Terris Feruchemists as a source of religious authority), nothing about Feruchemy mixing with Allomancy.

On 6/24/2023 at 5:12 AM, alder24 said:

Yes, that can't work, because Malwish would have strong Allomantic and Feruchemical genes, resulting in having almost as many Metalborn as in the North. That isn't the case, Metalborn there are very rare. They only have the seed of metallic arts in them.

Actually, my primary concern there was that (after the Well was used up) he couldn't get them there alive. Rashek himself could probably have crossed the blazing deserts by dumping heat into F-Brass, and either using Gold Compounding to heal the damage from thirst and starvation or using Steel Compounding to get there within the amount of water he could carry (using A-Pewter and/or compounded F-Pewter strength to carry more gold, if necessary), F-Steel speed, and so on... but he didn't have a way to protect anyone else.

Feruchemy and Allomancy genes interfere, so the effect on a population a thousand years on might be much less than introducing pure Lerasium Mistborn.

Day 42b: A-Pewter and F-Pewter (Double Pewter) 

(Increase strength, balance, toughness, etc + store/tap muscle strength) 

A powerful Compounding combo, and including a top tier Allomantic power as well.

A-Pewter does a lot, not just strength - balance/agility/grace, physical toughness and health (harder to break bones etc, enduring wounds, probably better healing though it's "medical recovery" not "combat-time healing" like f-Gold, etc), resistance to heat/cold, resistance to intoxication and probably poison, etc.

 In modern era, the biggest weakness of A-Pewter (lack of ranged capacity) can be made up for with guns, and A-Pewter's increased balance/grace probably can improve accuracy.

Resonance:  By storing the physical strength from A-Pewter in F-Pewter, a double Pewter Twinborn can probably tap strength without the increased muscle size of normal F-Pewter. But I don't think that really counts as a Resonance. So I'm not sure.

Name: Mistborn Adventure Game suggests "Hefter".  That seems insufficiently cool for this combo, which is basically a superhero, though. Musclemaster?

Rating: 9/10. One of the most powerful Twinborn, though not the absolute best.

In the interest of getting this going again, since the first random combo was unimpressive, there's two today...

Day 42a: A-Nicrosil and F-Bronze

(Super-burst others' Allomancy + store/tap wakefulness)

An interesting but not awesome combo; two potentially useful, but somewhat niche, powers.

Resonance:  More efficient tapping of large amounts of wakefulness (burst-style)? Seems pretty useless, wakefulness is something you'd want to use over time not in one big sudden burst.

More symbolically, faster reaction time? (Alertness from f-bronze + sudden action from a-nicrosil).

Name: Depending on the Resonance, maybe Fastburst?

Rating: 3/10 ish ... maybe up or down a little depending on whether the Resonance is useful. Neither power is the *best*, and there's no great synergy, but they're also not among the most useless in either Metallic Art (A-Aluminum/Duralumin/Gold, F-Electrum and maybe Aluminum?).

Role: perhaps military support?

18 hours ago, alder24 said:

It's about power, how much you can fuel with it (liquid can fuel a lot, solid does one specific thing, potent vs rigid), not about investiture density. Physical investiture, like matter, is the most dense in solid state. 

Edit: For resisting a Shardblade investiture density matters the most, not potency.

That's possible, but I don't think we know that liquid Investiture is less dense than solid. That's not an universal rule even with regular matter - water is more dense than ice - though it is the usual trend.

We really can't compare the same Shard's liquid vs solid Investiture - the only Shard we've seen both from is Preservation, and we have no idea of the density of either Well of Ascension liquid* or lerasium. The only god metals we have a decent idea of properties for are harmonium (alkali metal like) and atium (platinum group like), and we haven't really seen the liquid form of either (except one mention of the black lake in Alendi's journal).

But you could totally be right - liquid Investiture could be "most potent" because it's the best balance of being less locked-down in form than solid, but denser than gas.

*the Well of Ascension probably links to the Shard, not just burning the liquid itself? Enough energy to move a planet would translate to so much mass that it'd be many orders of magnitude denser than any normal matter (it'd be a neutron star liquid Well).