1stBondsmith

So, agreeing with and understanding @Yata, can a splinter (even a spren splinter from old Roshar) get enough investiture from Odium to become His splinter now? Could the Unmade, being spren get a massive investiture like other beings on Roshare do, become his Splinters, and carry out his directives? The only reason I even bring this up, instead of just saying "Oh, then they came after Odium came to Roshar, and do his bidding, independently", is that they are referred to as Old Gods, "one will likely betray the rest", and the uncertainty from the Old Songs of the listeners about their roles, quoted by @Spoolofwhool above. Seems enough there not to dismiss the idea.

As do I. But is there more to that pattern of settings? Also I really would like insight on the rest of the questions I posited. Any ideas on the spren?

With all the discussions about the Surgebinding charts that are the Front and Back leaf drawings, I have a burning question. Why are the Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers so set apart in both charts. Early on I thought this was artistic backdrops, but knowing what we do now, here are some observations and questions: In the "Physical Chart" (I like the Theory), The two orders are inverted in the otherwise symmetrical pattern They are also the only orders that have the creatures' jaws and claws making any interaction with the sphere glyphs. The rest are all on the outer shells, no overlap. in the "Cognitive Chart", the two orders are very exclusive. They are obviously the only ones inside the store infused with stormlight. They are also the only ones with lightning (blue and purple) coming to or from them an are intentionally interwoven. They also notibly have no other surge connections to them, which is unlike the other 8. The other orders are all outside this in the misty clouds. My soft theory (because there is no other proof yet) is that the other orders are not seen by the spren in Shadesmar. This is why they lose their memories today when they bond a human, and have to slowly rebuild it. Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers get fully cognizant spren. Also there is some interplay of power or investiture available between these that is too vague for me to speculate details. Any good thoughts?

Look at the prongs on the mountings of the stones. One has 2 prongs, one has three, etc...Do the location of the prongs refer to a number on the Surgebinding chart of significance? This is the kind of thing Brandon would do to leave us a clue.

Yeah, I read those. What is not discussed (or rather, no evidence brought up) is what the symbol means. They tried to call it a locator for Urithiru, the Oathgates and other things, but its occurrence does not lend itself to that (I liked the Oathgate idea myself, but I don't think it is so). Other translations gave no better idea. So given the strange locations, and multi locations in the Thaylen Map, what is it denoting?

In both of Navani's drawings in WoK, she shows fabrials for two devices (Pain gun and mood reader). Love the code breaking and the past posts, which I have researched. A new point that ties to some older ones is the following: Navani notes in her drawing and in a discussion with Dalinar and Adolin that fabrials work with stormlight in a stone. The stones cutting and SETTING determine the fabrials use, and they are being discovered, not intended. (yes, i paraphrased). Also that they are just now categorizing these and beginning to predict what they will do. That is a big jump. In the mood reader drawing, I had not heard that anyone noticed the pattern on the fabrial was similar to the surgebinding chart in shape. Nor did I read that someone had found on close review that the settings numbered 2, 3, 4, 5, etc prongs on each different stone setting. I wonder if the numbers are clues to other numbers in this familiar setting? Next, I noticed that the setting prongs had different shapes and connections. The pain knife fabrial even has oddly bent wires across the top. I believe the patterns of light through the settings are much more complex that a flat paper view and either make a sybol, or attract a certain spren type. That opens the spren discussion. Since Shallan and Jasnah each have a spren to help them surgebind. I think that the Ardent surgebinders (oh, so secretive even about their deformed looks), must also know it requires spren, which means they are lying to everyone else about how it is done, and that would be a good reason for Jasnah to not believe them at all, and have groups of them trying to kill her. It would also explain why groups like the Ghostbloods are secret and have the same knowledge. But back to the spren. Do you need a captured spren to make the fabrial work? Or for that matter, do you need a spren to keep stormlight in cut gem? Are fabrials trapping spren, or are the spren tied to a patterns on stormlight? And Hey! why are ardent surgebinders deformed so badly? Are the spren they are attracting binding to them and changing them, or are they doing it wrong?

What an embarrassment! I did not read the Caption! With that in mind now though, Why is this included if not to show the power given by an Honorblade? and Who are the people surrounding Nalan'Elin? Ardents or others?

Yes, I got the WoB, but I am not fully convinced a splinter is only made of power that becomes self aware. I don't know if a being, most particularly a spren, could become a splinter with high investiture. My example is the Stormfather. If he can, when why not the Unmade? I am nNOT arguing that it happened that way, but that the WoB you are referring to did not limit the way it was done, just that no Human was made into a Splinter. Spren are different.

On page 944 of WoK there is a drawing of a man raising a sword, and "shining". He is barely dressed, and in surrounded by people all dressed alike and all but one of them saluting with the LEFT hand. Questions: 1. Is this a radiant ascending or a Truthless getting an Honorblade? 2. Are these ardents bowing, or Stone Shamans granting the sword. 3. What is the lefthanded salute about and why is one only holding two hands together? Any good ideas?

OK. This weekends' work is done, and I got an hour to go over the glyphs in the two SA books. There are three main things I discoverd. 1st, I want to discuss the Symbol shown below This symbol is first found on the Compass rose for the Map of Roshar in black and white prior to the Prologue. It appears to form 6 arrows, but is lines from it are not limited to six or the four cardinal directions like most roses. I just searched the past forums on the compass rose and could not find a discussion that covered what I am about to. This symbol has a left to right reflective symmetry, and left to right and top to bottom symmetry and a Horizon point symmetry. HOWEVER, on a careful review, its shape is also a three plane reflexive symmetry (a repeated symbol 6 times). So really, I cannot tell what type of symbol I would classify this as. Then, I began to notice the repetition. In addition to this map where it looks like the Compass rose, it is also found on P.274 drawing of the warcamps. It is on the left in the middle of 10 other symbols. It is not used as a compass rose and has no lines showing navigation or direction. Then it appears again in a very surprising place. On the drawing of Karbranth on P.454 it appears to be the glyph on the sail of a ship AND... wait for it.. IN WHITE INK AT THE TOP OF THE PALLENIUM. Neither one could be used as a map rose. I had originally thought this a drawing by Shallan, but the style is different and she does not use glyphs except to copy the ones on swords. Finally, we see the symbol repeatedly on the Theylen map of the Frostlands on P.138 in WoR. It is surrounded by a ring of glyphs repeated 8 times in a band. This ring appears elsewhere, including the borders of two other maps. (on an aside, the 6 to 8 repeated symmetry also happens to appear in the drawings of Pattern, with six and eight repeated patterns). The first use looks like the compass rose, but there are a total of 5 of these, with connecting lines to them. So I assumed them to be navigation points, but they are not connected to cities or ports. Then I noticed that there are other navigation points where these lines intersect without this symbol. So I had to throw out that idea. This leaves me with only speculation. Are these a notation of important historical spots? Are they Perpendiculars? Are they something else?...likely. Just don't know. Secondly, I could not find any other examples of the Cognitive glyphs other than the end cover sheet. Unless you include the chapter heading drawing of Shadesmar (which is think is indicative, but not a hidden glyph), pattern's symbol, However, on reviewing the drawing of the Shattered Plains on P.950 of WoR, I noticed, that unlike the maps of the Dawncities, which have various symmetries, the Shattered Plains have a 2 plane reflective OR a 1 plane reflective and second plane flipped symmetry like the cognitive symbols. My reason for seeing it the second way is the diagonal and crossing axial notes added by Nazh on the trip out to the center. Very interesting, but doesn't help us understand how the plains were made, shattered, or which symmetry is the most correct. Third I no longer think there are filler glyphs on any map or drawing.Each of these, repeated or stylized appears to have meaning and even precedence on other maps. See the Rear endsheet map on WoR and make particular notice of the slightly different design in the four inner corners of the map. (At first I though these were a repetition error, but they are specific to the corners. Also note that this appears to be a ceiling map).

Thank you for bringing this post to the subject it was written for. I find the same holes in our information as @comentaryorbit just listed, so I still don't know if there is a firm connection between Listener Gods and the Unmade. I still don't know to what degree they are controlled by Odium, and still don't know if they predate his arrival. To a few of the other points. It appears, because of what I just stated, that there is little to be gained knowledgewise if they are slivers, splinters, or possessed spren. Their actions remain and their connection tot he Listeners is still cloudy. I do not believe the Oathpact occurred after Honor's death. What a strange reinterpretation of what I said. I think the Oathpact was made as a deal to limit Oduim and resulted in the death of Honor; giving of himself to protect others. Prediction for the future... The Unmade: "There going to be big!"

Sorry, I have to delay my post. I got swamped by my kids last night. I will have updates Monday morning on the location of the glyphs and their symmetry. The rest of life intrudes...

Look to the other Thread called "Unmade" as the most recent. Other threads from WoK time frame also included these. You would be right if the Unmade appeared after Odium's arrival, which is still a strong possibility and even likelihood. But if the forms of power existed from the Unmade prior to their getting made splinters, then there were no Honorblades yet. And yes, I do believe Honor was killed before the Knight Radiant and the Honor Blades were formed. I BELIEVE (no proof) that was part of the Oathpact. But I may very well be wrong and of there is a WoB about this, I would like to have it, as it would settle many of these questions I have.This leads to the final... Splinters are also a sentient piece of a Shard's power (from Adonalsium). Shards have taken the bodies of humans as a vessel, as well as Slivers, like the Stormfather for his cognitive shadow. I see no restriction on them taking other existing, strong spren (which is what Brandon called the Unmade in the book- see the "Unmade" thread again) as vessels. We even have precedence on the same planet. So, yes I do think Oduim could use an existing spren (the Umade) for his Splinters. I just don't know if he did, and that would change the timeline.

I'll get to my books again tonight, and give you page references. You will need to glance through the sections for context. I am working on a computer today till late. Expect an update in the morning.

Awesome. Have an upvote for the courtesy shown to give this information to us here without us having to search it out as well. I love the care he gives each world. I love that math is very important here, because of what we see in the geography (continent, Dawncities, matched number of people and powers, and kingdoms.) It just makes it more fun to read because of the thoroughness in his planning. I wonder now is there is some mathmatical formula for the storms' frequency and path, the stormlight and recharge times for gems and larger creatures hearts? Would that be asking for way too much worldbuilding of an already awesome author?

I have paper copies of all the books for the glyphs I studied. I would have to research electronic ones to show the relationship from location in the book and context in the story to the glyph used. That would take a very long time to document electronically. Looking up the context of the glyph, with the assumptions from this Thread's original author about the Cognitive Surgebinding chart, and the locations and uses of the glyphs will show this. I would be interested in exceptions, but I checked over 28 glyphs and glyph types in maps, drawing, and other locations, and this seems to be accurate. We only have three examples of what I am now calling Spiritual glyphs, I'm sorry, but finding all this electronically, or giving each reference would take too long for me. Try the paper way. It is much quicker for this kind of reference. (at least for me).

I believe they changed forms with the spren from the very beginning, and since they were the only numerous people we know of at the beginning, they were likely the cognitive source for the spren. When Honor and Cultivation show up, they bring man (or man is driven there, either way), and man's emotions and passions are tempting to the spren, but man cannot bond yet. Oduim shows up, the Unmade are either taken over as splinters, or created as splinters (not sure which I believe still), and the Unmade show new forms and new powers to the Listeners (Is this where they become their Gods or was it long before? Depends on when the Unmade were made). Lots of strife...Honor makes the Heralds and gives them the Honor Blades to counter Odium and Odium is somehow bound and Honor killed. Spren see the working of the Honorblades, and want more sentience. They bond to men and thus form the Knights Radiant (this is the treason of the spren to the Listeners). Helralds organize and codify the Knights. Parshendi take on dull form to escape the power forms of their terrible Gods. Power of the Unmade very diminished since there are no Parsh-hosts. With Oduim bound, and Oathpact not in full effect (we don't know why yet), things stay in stasis until the event of the Stormlight Archive. So I still need to get a better grip on if the Unmade predate the arrival of Odium (I think this sounds good with the name Unmade), or after when he splintered them. I understand the definitional difference between a sliver and a splinter, which would incline me toward Odium making them, but the story goes much better if they were there first. Also, do we have any firm information that a shard cannot use an being (not human) to make a splinter. The WoB I saw, states that a human could not. Since Humans were supposedly made everywhere but Yolen by the Shards, that makes sense. But what of pre-existing beings? We have seen many powerful splinters that were sentient and not human.

Another thought on the glyphs, and something to watch for in all the glyphs... I have gone back and looked at a large collection of the published glyphs, and I think this is very solid; All glyphs relating to the Physical plane have a mirrored symmetry, left to right. This is true for old and new glyph types. Styles change and the shape of modern glyphs appear to be more important than they used to be (probably to make them more "Male friendly" to read), but they must all have the bilateral symmetry. This is also a way to identify which Realm the glyph is referring to. All glyphs with bilateral and inverted symmetry (left to right, then flip the right side top to bottom) refer to the Cognitaive Realm. Additionally, the glyphs with Point symmetry, (plane across the middle and bend the the glyph to the "infinite point") appear to be how beings in the cognitive world have made their glyphs. They also appear to have a different thickness to the glyphs. All glyphs (and there are only a few demonstrated so far) with Dual-axis bilateral symmetry (also called 2nd order symmetry- mirrored left to right and top to bottom both) appear to be related to the Spiritual realm. I would love to get more info on tangent theories to support or disprove, as I don't have enough time to complete the study of the glyphs, but this appears to be the construct.

To bring this back on track... I've been studying the charts some more and I think that @BlackYeti is on solid ground here with the Cognitive (Shadesmar) surgebinding chart. As Brandon likes to give us world with real world science mixed in, here are some thoughts on the cognitive realm that might help this make sense. Consider: 1. We know that space has different bounds and areas of less cognition are smaller space in Shadesmar vs. the Physical realm. 2. With a spherical bending of space, specifically instead of three or two dimensional planar space, we have space represented as a "bent back on itself" space where straight lines connect to themselves at infinity. This is a common representation of a 4th dimensional or even more dimensional train of thought. I do not want other physicists to argue the representation, as I know these are endless topics for decades, but I want you to consider if Brandon and his illustrators want us to see this as a different dimensional plane, we have a lot of clues here. 1. All the lines in the sky going to one point 2. spheres representing the tangible ideas of objects, 3. the spherical shape of all the glyphs, 4. the point symmetry to the glyphs, 4. Kelsier's ability to cross the plane and have a tie to the plane still. Gravity still pushed him to the plane from below implying a spherical plane symmetry. 3. Travel there is very relativistic, with cognitively active areas taking up space, and other areas not. This also implies other dimensional representation. (like a Thought =Space direct or secondary correlation), and thus transcends planetary boundaries. I would assume this is true for the Spiritual Realm as well. This is a strong train of thought and needs to be considered more. There is a lot to add, but I really like the connotations. It gives a good scientific flavor to the Realmatic Theory. PS. This would be a more complete picture with a spiritual chart of surgebinding. Imagine the lines and connections we would see and not see that would give a three-plane view of surgebinging. I think I will make this someday when we get the surge connections completed. WOW! Brandon is very cool to have thought of this from way back when! Simply astounding!

Boy, I agree. I am very anxious to know about Bondsmiths' powers and work. Sounds like the Unmade as splinters and the Nightwatcher ties to Cultivation is pretty set, So what about the the Parshendi "Gods"? Who are they if not the Unmade and not the Greatshells? Not Adonalsium, because they are plural. So what then?

To clarify the symmetry question- Draw a horizontal line for the inflection plane (for artists, this is flat ground. Then, by picking any point above that plane as the infinite reference, all parallel lines leading away from the viewer fo to that point. All perspective shots use this as a construct. Now instead of only one infinite point, place one below the plane directly mirroring the first. It would be like the chapter heading picture of Shadesmar mirrored downward. Now, take the Surgebinding glyphs, and bend them towards the horizon (with a little artistic leeway,) and you get the "Cognative" glyphs. Most of my connection to Renarin not getting a live blade is from your observations, but also in his apparent inability to engage in battle. I think this is really fighting the spren he has bonded to. We will likely get more of this shortly. Dalinar can fight, (and well), but as a Bondsmith he will not use a shardblade, nor remain bonded to a dead one.

Sorry, I did put Sliver when I meant Splinter. Where do we have that a Splinter cannot be made of an existing being? I will go look up the connection to NightWatcher and Midnight Essence. It was in book. Give me a bit. I don't have it electronically. I was referring to the IRE, but what is the process that makes you like they are, or the unmade like they are? Is it related?

I am aware of the deep discussions about the unmade, but I would posit a few new theories- To use a lame sport metaphor... FIRMLY IN THE FAIRWAY: (very well discussed and some documentation- arguing details about these would really just make this a necro thread) A. The name Unmade could mean 1. they were made, but are not now, or 2. they exist but were not "made". B. They exist now and still wield influence at least over mortals (Thrill, Death Rattles, etc). C. We have a WoB stating that they are splinters of Odium NOW. D. We know that the Parshendi (or other forms of Parshmen) were there before mortals and before heralds. We have a WoB stating that they were not made by Honor or Cultivation, and they are called the "Old People", likely they and spren were made by Adonalsium earlier. They bonded spren and had many forms that were not the "God forms" which betrayed them to Odium's control later (it could be argued to "Their Gods", not Odium, but is was really bad either way, and they did things they disliked so much that they preferred to become Dull rather than continue this way). Rolling into the Rough: (Where I want this discussion to start) a. in A above, calling them the unmade because they were never made doesn't make sense to me. So to call them the Unmade must be that they were not made the same as everyone else. I think this lends itself to mean not made by Honor or Cultivation. Since we know that they came before Oduim, we are left with the following theory options: 1. They were made earlier by Adonalsuim when the Parshendi were made. I think this is likely since they have "Their Gods" from an incredibly long oral tradition, and they felt betrayed by spren that bonded to them previously and subsequently bonded to Knight Radiant. OR 2. They were made later by Odium directly and brought to (born into) the world under his control (I think we know they are mostly under his control by the desolation scenes and other historical info, but we can't be sure) We do know that as slivers, they would be strongly influenced by his Aspect. b. We don't know who all of them are, what their influences are, or what damage they can do in the physical world. Obviously, they are tied to cognitive and Spiritual realms, affecting dreams, emotions, and when soul is leaving body. So how do they have access to men's minds in all three realms? Just taking advantage of a cracked spirit web implies they are specialized spren...could be. Are there deeper powers we do not have descriptions of yet? Likely. c. Is the Nightwatcher one of the Unmade, or do we assume she is because she is the mother of Midnight Essence? She is also called the mother of Wyndal's type of spren, is she not? Is the first statement really true or characters' perspective in story? This is a common misdirection by Brandon. d. When were the Unmade made Slivers? Was it at their creation? Were thy brought in, or were they taken over? (my favorite theory is the last, hence the ability to be treacherous to they other, like the Diagram mentions.) e. No other being is mentioned as good potentials for Early Parshendi Gods than the Unmade. They derisively refer to mortals thinking that the greatshells were their gods. So who else would that leave? Way in the Weeds: (Speculation with very incomplete education) I. Could these Unmade be old spren originally given other talents that helped the Parshendi? Now, their Gods are turned in purpose by Odium and they fear them and bond to spren to make themselves dull to fill cracks in their spirit webs and hide from their Gods? Or or the Unmade a different kind of entity (the Old Magic type?) that influence all being on Roshar. Were they built to destroy and punish, or to hint and supplement? Has their original focus for living changed, or is it consistent, just not understood by our characters? II. Can a Sliver actually turn against the intent of the Shard? Kelsier seems to have been able to... Was this what was hinted at by the Diagram or was it relating to the relation with the Parshendi? III. Will the Unmade be critical to the upcoming battles with the Parshendi, or will they be part of the New Desolation?. Do they care about a side, or just their dominion? Stuck in the Sand: (Wild speculation that likely will dead end, but might get lucky) --One of the Unmade turns and helps either the Parshendi or KR in the upcoming battles against Odium's forces. --They are spren bonded to Odium and invested to make them powerful Slivers, and the distraction of the treachery is part of Oduim's undoing, much like Kelsier Connected to Ruin helped end Ruin. --Unmade are the source of the strange bonds to the Voidbringer of various types, and are key to their return. --Cultivation can also influence Unmade as She once did before Odium, and uses them for purposes we do not yet have any visibility to. --The Unmade are the physical manifestation of things that do not really exist, and are no danger in the Physical realm, except what we fear (cognative of sprirtual) --Why does "The Unmade" sound a lot like "Those who died but did not"? Is there an initiation to the state that the IRE are in that might relate to the Unmade. I strongly doubt it, but made mention of it here. And with that, PLEASE use you best brilliance in giving ideas for GOOD therories on this. If you explained your idea well before, please just post the link for details. If you get brain cannons from this or have a completely undiscussed idea, this is where we want them! I salute you!

Talked about a lot. I believe it is Kaladin (the subject of a few death rattles) who wears the tower and crown adding a spear to his office badge now that he is a lighteyes/radiant, and taking up the title of KR.

@BlackYeti, This appears to be very well thought out. It is strongly tangential to theories I have been working on. I had a couple of observations that the glyph crackers and the Order buffs might like to pursue. In addition to the bilateral symmetry, and the 2nd order on the Truthwatchers, the larger glyphs appear to have a dual point symmetry. Specifically, when an artist pick the horizon point of a picture. that point is used to establish all parallel lines and curve directions. It is a critical part of technical illustration. In the original glyph for the Orders is given a horizon at the midplane, then -not one but two- points are selected as the infinity point, the glyphs very nearly represent what we see in the Cognitive chart. Make the lines have a thickness, and bend the lines to the infinite horizon point, and they are very close to the same. Having these lines go to a point in the sky, rather than the horizontal plane is not artiscally correct, and seems to very indicative of the way the sky in Shadesmar is always described. To me this is some validation of the glyph theory. I am going to work on this some more in my spare time, which is rare, and than start a new post, but I very much like the border as the key to the orders and powers, and the Cognitive rather than the Voidbringer's chart. Additionally, Your explanation of the Exceptions for the two orders mentioned seems well thought and plausible. I had been wondering if the bonds might not also describe spren powers, which is why Renarin and Dalinar will not be carrying live spren swords. Thanks for the jump in observation! Have a big upvote!