Nedyah Drallid

That sounds very plausible, except that it should make you a Nicrosil misting. Also, where would the blowing up come from?

I would be a Chromium compounder. (Still technically one magic.) You would have endless good fortune, to the point that your basically Seven. (Whoever got that reference rocks.) My other choice would be Willshaping, for the primary purpose of Teleportation. (The other main reason for choosing Willshaping is that I personally decided it's spren. It is a Mindspren, mine is named Tern. It is shaped like a floating perfect cube, but will change into different geometric shapes depending on its current mood.)

Thanks for asking Brandon, I agree, we are arguing in circles. In your last post I have some points I disagree with, but if I pointed them out, it would just start circular arguing again. We will have to wait for Mr. Sanderson (Is that how we are supposed to address him? Brandon is too formal, whereas Brandon Sanderson is a mouthful to repeat. Sanderson sounds too vague.) to answer your questions. Thanks for welcoming me to the Forums, I never thought my first post would start this particular discussion. Thank you for debating me.

My point is, you accused me of headcanon, whilst you were doing the same thing. Do you know that a spren's spiritual cannot change for a fact? It would be great if you did, it would be very useful to know. If you do know, please provide relevant WoB. (The WoB you provided shows that there is an ideal, not that the ideal can't change.) I think there are a few things you are ignoring here. If Dalinar saw a tiny purple slug, he would assume it is fearspren. That doesn't mean it is. Also, the visions aren't for sure in the past. He makes it seem that way, but based on how the shards can see the future, are we 100% sure they are in the past? (I'm looking at you Purelake vision.) I'm not saying they are in the future, I'm saying that is a possibility. (I may have just accidentally introduced a new topic of argument.) Finally, you assume Mr. Sanderson would show us spren if it was important, but he has been known to hide things in the past. I agree, Nalan shows integrity and doesn't show dishonesty. But there were three parts to that definition. Nalan did not show fairness. To be fair, he would have had to hear their side, he couldn't just murder cobblers in the street. Unless you can show me a time when someone is all three of the traits and cruel, I either have to believe that your definition is wrong, or Honorspren can act against the definition. Either one helps my stance on liespren. Lets deal with the elephant in the room. I did not in the slightest think that Honor was against people flying. (Just like I don't think he is againts lying.) I was just trying to show, through analogy, that just because Syl doesn't do something, it doesn't mean Honor doesn't do it either. I see your first definition making sense, not the second one. Coincidentally, the first one doesn't interfere with my stance on Cryptics coming from Honor. Your final WoB actually helps my stance. He says those are their fundamental laws of physics. The ones they categorize. Wouldn't it make sense for people to categorize forces based on the orders of the Knight's Radiant? Just like, even though there are more metals than just the sixteen, those are the ones Scadrialites (?) would classify,

Aah, right. If you encase metal in plastic then swallow it, can you still burn it? If yes, you could do that to the metal. This made me think of a death pill made of ettmetal being covered in a thin degrading substance, then swallowed. After a few minutes... Boom!

I like your idea, ettmetal does make sense. So it said it is poisonous to eat, does that include allomancers? Allomancers eat a lot of stuff that isn't technically "good" for you. Besides, even if it is poisonous to eat, I bet you could store stuff in it. I too like Sazedium much better than Harmonium. But this made me think of something. If the other shards had metals, what would they be? (I'm pretty sure WoB say that they don't) Edglium/Endowmentium Raysium/Odiumium Tanavastium/Honorium ?ium/Cultivationium ...

I don't actually have a problem with you using definitions of Honor that you think match the book. I did it too. My point is that that is not totally confirmed, so you are basing it on your own assumptions and theories. Your definition actually make sense, but they are not confirmed. My statement that the spren change based on human perception follows those same lines. We see perception influence most of investiture in the cosmere, most notably the aons. Stormlight is also influenced by perception, (Kaladin's brands). So why shouldn't spren be victims of perception too? You brought up two points against it, neither of which I think actually count. 1.WoB Your WoB state that spren can't act outside of their nature. I'm not saying they can. I'm saying that their nature actually changes 2. Fearspren, Painspren, Rotspren, etc. Do you know for a fact that they mean the same now that they did 1000 years ago? Could you please give me an example of how someone could be honest, integrous, and fair, and still be cruel? You know what else Syl can't do? She can't fly when in a human shape. Sure she hovers, but Kaladin makes special note of how she seems to walk down stairs in human form instead of flying (or falling) around. Does that mean Honor is against people flying(or falling) around. Because if he did, he sure messed up when he made an Honorblade that grants the surge of gravitation. Last note about something you said earlier. You said illumination was one of the 10 natural forces on Roshar. Where did you get that information? Conversations from the book? Isn't it a bit "naive" to assume that just because people in the book view something one way, that is the right way?

Oh, I didn't realize that.

I don't believe Harmony has a metal, but if he did, wouldn't if be Sazedium? (Lerasium and Atium)

That would be absolutely terrifying and amazing

I also forgot about Tien and Shallan's father. There is a literary technique called helplessness. You know how a story is going to end, but you can't do anything to stop it. In Romeo and Juliet, at the very beginning, it tells you the outcome of the story. Also when you watch Titanic, you know how it's going to end, but there is nothing you can do about it. At the beginnings of their respective books, you knew they were going to die, so every flashback you wonder, is this it? Overall, it leads to a stunning finale.

Do you really want to get into a theology debate here?

Hello Blightsong, A while back you accused me o basing my arguments with my own theories. But, I would like to post something interesting. Here is the complete Google definition of Honor. honour ˈɒnə/ noun noun: honor 1. high respect; great esteem. "his portrait hangs in the place of honour" synonyms: distinction, privilege, glory, tribute, kudos, cachet, prestige, fame, renown, merit,credit, importance, illustriousness, notability; More antonyms: disgrace a person or thing that brings esteem. "you are an honour to our profession" a title of respect or form of address given to a circuit judge, a US mayor, and (in Irish or rustic speech) any person of rank. noun: His Honour; noun: His Honor; noun: Her Honour; noun: Her Honor; noun: Your Honour; noun: Your Honor 2. the quality of knowing and doing what is morally right. "I must as a matter of honour avoid any taint of dishonesty" synonyms: integrity, honourableness, honesty, uprightness, ethics, morals, morality, principle,(high) principles, righteousness, rectitude, nobility, high-mindedness, right-mindedness, noble-mindedness; More antonyms: dishonour dated a woman's chastity or her reputation for being chaste. "she died defending her honour" synonyms: chastity, virginity, virtue, maidenhood, maidenhead, purity, innocence, modesty;More 3. something regarded as a rare opportunity and bringing pride and pleasure; a privilege. "Mrs Young had the honour of being received by the Queen" synonyms: privilege, pleasure, pride, satisfaction, joy, compliment, favour, source of pleasure,source of pride "Mrs Young had the honour of being received by the Queen" antonyms: shame a thing conferred as a distinction, especially an official award for bravery or achievement. "the highest military honours" synonyms: accolade, award, reward, prize, decoration, distinction, order, title, medal, ribbon,star, laurel, laurel wreath, bay, palm; More a special distinction for proficiency in an examination. "she passed with honours" a course of degree studies more specialized than for an ordinary pass. noun: honours degree; plural noun: honours degrees; noun: honors degree; plural noun:honors degrees "an honours degree in mathematics" GOLF the right of driving off first, having won the previous hole. "Kyle had the honour at the last hole" 4. BRIDGE an ace, king, queen, jack, or ten. possession in one's hand of at least four of the ace, king, queen, jack, and ten of trumps, or of all four aces in no trumps, for which a bonus is scored. (in whist) an ace, king, queen, or jack of trumps. verb verb: honor 1. regard with great respect. "Joyce has now learned to honour her father's memory" synonyms: hold in great respect, hold in high esteem, have a high regard for, esteem, respect,admire, defer to, look up to, think highly of; More antonyms: dishonour pay public respect to. "talented writers were honoured at a special ceremony" synonyms: applaud, acclaim, praise, salute, recognize, celebrate, commemorate, commend,glorify, hail, lionize, exalt, fete, eulogize, give credit to, pay homage to, pay tribute to, show appreciation of, give accolades to, sing the praises of, sing paeans to;More antonyms: disgrace, criticize 2. fulfil (an obligation) or keep (an agreement). "make sure the franchisees honour the terms of the contract" synonyms: fulfil, observe, keep, discharge, implement, perform, execute, effect, obey, heed,follow, carry out, carry through, keep to, abide by, adhere to, comply with, conform to,act in accordance with, be true to, be faithful to, live up to; rareeffectuate "make sure the franchisees honour the terms of the contract" antonyms: disobey accept (a bill) or pay (a cheque) when due. "the bank informed him that the cheque would not be honoured" synonyms: cash, accept, take, clear, pass, encash, convert into cash, convert into money "the bank informed him that the cheque would not be honoured" antonyms: bounce (By the way, I can put this in a spoiler to make it easier to read, if someone can tell me how to do that. It would also be helpful to know how to put something in a quote box. Thanks.) This has about eight definitions of Honor in it, but you choose to acknowledge only two of them. I am not saying you are definitely wrong, I am saying you are assuming you know which of the definitions Honor definitively is. Unless you have WoB, if so, I would love to see those. Now, I am not saying Honor is an ace, king, queen, jack, or ten. I am just saying you can't assume you know which one it is. Using the books, we could probably show evidences for a lot of these. Also, none of these definitions is inherently against lying. They are against breaking oaths, but not lying. My point is, you don't know for sure that those mean what you think they do. Sometimes I had trouble finding the connections between the quotes and what you were saying. One last point. The definition you have; honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs or actions, means you have to be wrong in some part of your arguing. You repeatedly proved that honor spren can be cruel. And I totally believe you. You showed WoB that I think proves it completely. But for an honorspren to be cruel, they would have to go against that definition. So, one of three of your points is wrong. 1. Honorspren can be cruel (I strongly doubt this one is false based on your evidence) 2.Your most recent definition of Honor or 3.No spren of honor could ever lie All three of those statements could not stand together. If they are all true, honorspren would have to against the shardic intent. Then, if that is the case, there would be no reason at all that a spren that originally came from Honor would be unable to lie.

I actually think Devotion would be devoted to Dominion, not the other way around. We see preservation want to preserve, not make ruin want to preserve hime, savvy?

I personally chose Amaram's death. In advance. That death is going to be something special. He'll probably get some form of magic and battle Kaladin and Kaladin will destroy and stomp on his remains. It's going to be beautiful. By the way, Deus ex Machina, literally means God out of the machine. (For the Cosmere we should call it shard ex Machina)

Ruin/Preservation Dominion/Devotion Honor/Odium? Endowment/Ruin Autonomy/Devotion Cultivation/Ruin I don't know if this fully works, as ruin seems to be the opposite of a lot of them) (This also made me think, if Dominion and Devotion were in a relationship, who would be in charge? )

You did not call them Liespren, but you acted as if lying was their natural nature when we see that it is not. Let's review the evidence. Jasnah brings up the name Liespren, and then immediately corrects that and calls them Cryptics. To advance, a Lightrunner must say truths. We only ever see a Cryptic lie once, and he was terrible at it. You seem to say that because Pattern lied once, he obviously has a nature of lying. Well, by that same logic, shouldn't Syl be a prankspren, or a mockspren, as we see her do both more than once. First off, good point with the spren. It is really late right now where I live, and I can't think of a suitable answer right now. Moving on, you accuse me of basing arguments with me own theories while you argue using only facts. But every WoB you have listed only partially supports your claim. Either you didn't give us the full answer, or you are somehow understanding stuff he doesn't say. Finally, where do you get the idea that Honor is fully opposed to lying. Even your definition of honor isn't against lying, it is against breaking oaths. Those are two entirely different things. They have some connections, but it doesn't make them the same thing. For the sake of bringing cheese into this argument, it's like saying that if someone hates cheddar cheese, they hate all cheese. I think you are talking about Illumination here? I think if I was more awake, I could answer this, but my tired brain is telling me to got to slwwp, so I will answer this another time. Thanks for Responding

WarriorMark16, I like a lot of your suggestions, but I do have a few suggestions for your suggestions. The reason I didn't do Vivenna is because she wouldn't add much to actual combat. She would be useful in campaign mode, but not battle. Thanks for the catch with the mistake, I copy-pasted each box so I wouldn't have to format each, and I forgot to change that part. That is a possible use for Forgery, although the Rose Empire frown on Soul-forging. I also couldn't remember Shan's name, thanks for reminding me. Hrathen would be perfect, I don't know why I didn't think of him before. There is also that annoying Dak-hor Monk who would work. Shallan doesn't seen to have much combat experience, but she could also be useful in campaign mode. Why would Szeth be with Jah Keved? Thanks for responding.

Definitely, although other armies would need to have some ways to cross the chasms.

I'm not sure this is exactly a theory, but it relates to the Cosmere as a whole, and I've seen other posts like this, so I'm going for it. What if there was a total war game based on the books of the cosmere. (It would function similar to Medieval 2: total war, with the ability to play on multiple planets.) Here are some ideas for armies with their pros and cons. Warning, there will be very minor spoilers to almost everyone of his cosmere books. I will be ignoring White Sand unfortunately. A few categories have ?s feel free to tell me how to fix those. (I am also adding heroes who could possibly be part of the armies.) (Last note, obviously the shardbearers would win any battle, but, for evenness sake, imagine slightly more balanced) Mistborn The Lord Ruler's Army Pros: Inquisitors, Kaandra, Mistborn, Mistings, Kollos Cons: Generally expensive, Normal soldiers are fairly low on skill Possible Heroes: The Lord Ruler Skaa Rebellion Pros: Very cheap troops, Huge numbers, A few mistings Cons: Poorly trained, Low morale Possible Heroes: Kelsier, Vin Elend's Army Pros: Fairly cheap troops, Kollos Cons: Low morale, Koloss will ocassionaly disobey Possible Heroes: Elend, Vin, Tensoon, Spook Ruin's Army Pros: Koloss, Inquisitors, Infinite morale Cons: ? Possible Heroes: Marsh Alloy of Law (I don't know the name of the series as a whole) The Roughs Pros: Cheap troops, Twinborn, Outlaws, Koloss blooded Cons: Disobedience Possible Heroes: Wax, Wayne Elendel Pros: Constable troops? Good Morale, Disciplined Cons: Lack of magic Possible Heroes: Wax, Wayne Southern People Pros: Good at lowering morale on opposing troops, Higher technology, Aircraft, ? Cons: Expensive Possible Heroes: ? Sixth of the Dusk Patji Pros: Trappers, Aviar, Fairly high technology Cons: Low numbers Possible Heroes: Sixth of the Dusk Shadow for Silence in the Forests of Hell Colonists Pros: Well trained troops Cons: Low morale at night- like really, really low morale Possible Heroes: ? Warbreaker Hallandren Pros: Lifeless, Returned? Kalad's Phantoms, Awakeners Cons: Very, very expensive Phantoms Possible Heroes: The God King, Vasher? Idris Pros: Good Cavalry, Good guerilla warfare Cons: Low troops, unaesthetic Possible Heroes: ? Elantris Arelon Pros: Elantrians Cons: Not very many troops Possible Heroes: Raoden Teod Pros: Awesome Navy, Decent land troops Cons: Small troop numbers Possible Heroes: Rose Empire Pros: Trained troops, Large numbers (I can't think of how forgers would be useful in a battle, if you can think of any, please tell me) Cons: ? Possible Heroes: ? Fjordell Empire Pros: Huge troop numbers, Cheap troops, Gyorns, Dakhor, Monasteries... Cons: Slightly rebellious troops? Possible Heroes: ? The Stormlight Archives Alethkar Pros: Shardblades, Large numbers, Shardblades, Soulcasters, Archers, Shardblades! Cons: Discontent, Tendency to occasionally disobey orders, Expensive Possible Heroes: Kaladin, Dalinar, Adolin Jah Keved Pros: Large numbers, Shardblades Cons: Expensive Possible Heroes: ? Parshendi Pros: Warform, Stormform Cons: Not very many troops Possible Heroes: Eshonai If anyone has ideas for maps for battles, I'd love to hear them.

First of all, I feel you are ignoring a major point I have brought up multiple times. Pattern is not a liespren. He is a cryptic. Calling a Cryptic a liespren is equivalent to calling a group of people a derogatory name. That is not what they are, it is whatt other spren call them. And, let me say it again, being cryptic does not mean lying. Those are not the same thing. Being cryptic is akin to being mysterious. Secondly, I'm likening spren to aons, where over time the aons changed to mean other things, based on perception. We see basically all magic in the cosmere is based on perception. I'm not saying they act outside of their nature, I'm saying, over time, their nature changes. The theory of evolution is a gradual change, so small you couldn't even notice it. If perception changed over time, including their own perceptions, would that not change it too. I think you are missing something here. Yes all the shards follow their own intent, but they don't necessarily invest their own intent. In fact the only shard who does this fully is Endowment, with her Biochromatic breaths. Ruin slightly follows his intent with hemalurgy, but if he followed it fully, wouldn't the power be fully destroyed, i.e. ruined? Preservation doesn't make sense at all, when you burn metals, they are gone, not preserved. Even the given powers aren't preserving, besides the fact that there are multiple seemingly combat oriented powers, the fact that the powers go away would mean not be preserved. Dominion could make sense if you stretch, you have dominion over the Dor, or your powers give you dominion. Point being, investiture doen't always fully match up with the Shard who created it. Finally, by that same reasoning, you could say Honor spren are of Cultivation too, because, by urging you to keep oaths, they are cultivating a sense of honor in you. You could also say that allomancy is of ruin, because aluminum destroys a reserve of power. The arguments that you give for Kaladin not following the attributes are because of his depression. Also, even without Syl, he still ended up protecting Elhokar. Also I am going to assume that dorm is an autocorrect, and your not talking about the Bridge Four barracks. Because, if you are, that is a whole other argument. Yes spren do lead the Radiants to become more like their attributes, but the attributes are already there before. I think it is a mix, with the sprouts of those attributes being there, but the spren cultivating those in them. My definition was also from Google, by the way. Back to my previous example of the Jews hiding in your attic, and you had promised them you weren't going to tell the Nazis. Using your definition, wouldn't it be honorable to lie to the Nazis? I was originally talking about Wyndle's nature, but it has evolved into so much more. You know what's interesting about this, is wouldn't lightweaving be considered lying? What possibilities are there of lightweaving not being used for lying. I can't think of one, but if you can, I would be happy to hear it. But lightweaving is originally from Honor, unless Cultivation made an Honorblade. I think that it is in the book when it says that honorblades are made from Honor. Unfortunately, I am missing the book, so I can't find the quote. If someone else could find the quote, that would be extremely useful. Point being, I don't think Honor is separate from lying.

Feruchemical chromium (fortune) would be extremely useful, the only problem would be storing. Like you have bad luck for a week, win a lottery ticket, then start storing again and lose your ticket due to a technicality. Cadmium would be a useful side power, as you could create a speed bubble and store a lot, very fast. Unfortunately, bad luck would probably happen inside the bubble. I can only imagine what could go on in there if your storing luck.

First of all, I can't remember where pattern actually lies. If you could show me where, that would be great. Secondly, imagine there was something Americans did that was extremely offensive to Canadians. (Which I am sure there are.) Both of these countries come from the UK, but their cultures are entirely different. Why couldn't spren from Honor have the same differences? Both of these cultures have been around for quite some time, so why couldn't they have evolved differently. Now, before somebody tells me that spren are based on certain characteristics that they couldn't deviate from, that is wrong. Spren, like much other investiture, is based on perceptions. So, if perceptions of Cryptics change over time, they would too. Lastly for this topic, once again, they are not Liespren, they are Cryptics. Being cryptic does not mean lying. Besides, Brandon Sanderson emphasizes in the book that Pattern doesn't ask for lies, he asks for truths and lies. Moving on, the reason I said that they are drawn to honesty is because of the Heralds. Each of the Heralds are connected with two attributes, Shallash's being creativity and honesty. I took those two atrributes to mean that spren are attracted to those attributes. For instance, Jesrien, Windrunner Herald, is protecting and leading. Kaladin seems to have those two nailed. Ishar, the Truthwatcher Herald, is pious and guiding. Ym, may he rest in peace, seems to have had those two attributes too. Battar, Elsecalling Herald, is wise and careful. Sound like any teleporting scholar to you? Maybe the spren grant these too their Knights, but we see Kaladin leading and protecting even after Syl is gone. The definition of honor is knowing and doing what is morally right. I can think of scenarios where lying would be morally right. Example, which would be more morally right: lying to a nazi and telling them you hat Jews as much as he does, or betraying the Jewish family hidden in your attic? Also, why do you think liespren aren't honorable? Isn't sending of your own people into the real world where he would probably die so that you can save the world and study humans pretty honorable? The reason I put them into those categories is because Jasnah and Shallan talked about it and decided that is probably what the classification system is. Until proven otherwise, I am going to follow their system. Of course, there are some outliers. The Stormfather most notably. Lastly, I am saing Wyndle would call himself a cultivationspren, and that is what the book will probably call him. Just like the book calls Syl an honor spren. This topic was not designed as a study of sprens' nature and what they should really be called, it's just what they would be called in the books. (P.S. By saying this, aren't you destroying your earlier claim about the liespren being naturally liars because of their names?)

Adding to this, cryptics/lightweaver are attracted to honesty, not lies. And Syl is very specifically not a truth spren, but an honor spren. So what if cryptics are actually more truth spren than lie spren. Besides all that, the definition of cryptic is: having a meaning that is mysterious or obscure. Notice how the definition doesn't say anything about lies. Liespren don't necessarily have to be connected to the Stormfather to be connected to Honor, remember, the Stormfather is a part of Honor, not all of him.

Hello Blightsong, Okay, Brandon Sanderson has been intentionally vague about the Nightwatcher's nature, answering questions in a very roundabout way. There is clearly some relationship between the Nightwatcher and Cultivation, but Mr. Sanderson seems to hide it. Moving on, when I said elemental vs emotional, I was basing that on a discussion between Jasnah and Shallan, (I don't know exactly where) where they talk about the classification of spren. They say that elemental are from Cultivation and the human-based are from Honor. They could be wrong, but for now I'm going with that. Based on that, painspren and fearspren and probably even liespren would be from Honor. The Stormfather doesn't make sense with this classification, unless he represents something other storms. Lastly, how does this say that Wyndle is not the Cultivationspren. In fact, that last WoB seems to prove my theory even further. (By the way, I could not find anything discussing Cultivation before I wrote this, so I didn't know it had been asked before.) He says that Wyndle considers himself the purest form of Cultivation spren, so why does that say that he is not?