Argel

Didn't Brandon split some of Dalinar's aspects off into Adolin between TWOK Prime and TWoK?

4 hours ago, kaellok said:

The fight ended minutes before the others arrived.

True, but they were much closer by then, not still far away at the camp. They'd have to finish Adolin off and then get back to Notum, or carry Notum off. A few minutes is really pushing it at that point, especially given how many Adolin had taken out. Do you just assume Adolin was the only competent one at that point, or assume you might have a tough fight on your hands if you stick around?

55 minutes ago, FollowYourMuse said:

If he is getting a benefit, it may be more along the lines of having an edge in speed, agility. 

Thanks, I was thinking along those lines as well.

I was starting to wonder what the back five would be about as it seemed like there was a way to deal with Odium in the front five. Then Mr. T ascended, and then I was thinking how eff'd Dalinar is goign to be in ten days, and if he's going to be the antagonist in the back 5. Seems too obvious, but on the other hand, Adolin having to take on his father..... Ouch.

Also, anyone else think Renarin only foresaw Seth killing Mr. T and that's what the "sorry" was for? Not sure he saw the ascension.

13 hours ago, kaellok said:

Adolin going 20v1 and not just surviving, but winning, was a little much for me; it was a great scene that would have been improved upon if he'd actually been gravely wounded and they had to rush to Honorbound Windbags and beg for Light to save him through Regrowth.  I was more scared for Adolin dying in that scene than I was for any of Kal's fights in RoW

Well, they did get him healed afterwards. As was mentioned elsewhere in the book, more soldiers die from battlefield wounds than on the battlefield. And he didn't go it alone -- Maya and Gallant joined in and then the rest of team started catching up. If he actually beat all 20 that would have been a bit much, but an extremely experienced soldier + duelist  managing to barely hold out against poorly trained thugs wasn't too much of a stretch. He clearly would have died if the others had not arrived. With that said, he has some kind of bond with Maya and might be getting some additional benefits from it, much like Radiants do.

4 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

It felt like the flashbacks were more included out of a sense of obligation than narrative necessity.

Brandon indicated he originally planned to reveal Listener culture in this book, but realized he had to reveal it sooner. So, yeah, felt more like he was obligated to do them because of the structure he set for the series. It doesn't help that Eshonai was the far more interesting character and one fans were bonding with, then she gets killed off and we get her selfish sister as a replacement. Just not enough time for the emotional investment. He needed to start showing Venli's good side much, much more in OB so that these flashbacks to her previous self would contract tot he current Venli, not highlight how far she has to go yet (making her a less likeable character). The flashbacks seemed shorter this time, and maybe that's because Brandon accounted for less interest (from the beta reads).

It could have happened so fast that Testament didn't have time to leave.

Thought this was clear from the book: Pattern told Wit about the corrupted Spren and Mraize learned about it because he was spying on Jasnah+Wit.

Quote

“I was so worried about you. I didn’t know what to do. So I went to him, and he said we could talk with the cube, if I was worried. Mmm … About what was happening with you. He said I was very funny! But when I talked to him last, he warned me. He’s been spied on by the Ghostbloods. The things I told him, another heard. That was how Mraize knew things.”

“You talked to Wit,” Shallan whispered. “And a spy overheard? That … That means…”

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

We know Pattern was talking to Wit -- that was confirmed later on, so I see no reason to doubt the above is what happened. Rest was Mraize being cagey, keeping Shallan off balance, etc.  He needed to keep Shallan interested in joining the Ghostbloods so she would complete the mission, etc. 

Could also be due to experience --  she's been a Lightweaver since childhood.

According to a recent YouTube video, Brandon originally planned to have it be a magical malady but then ended up going the more realistic DID approach. He had to do a massive rewrite in the revision process to fix her scenes. But earlier this year I think he mentioned she'd have her own special version of DID. So, magical malady with realistic vibes.

Killing Sadeas fits in with Alethi culture and the general Rosharan setting. Sadeas was boasting about the the crimes he planned to commit, which is what set Adolin off. There's nothing hypothetical about that. The only damning thing about the incident is Adolin losing his temper.

Shallan was the one that volunteered to go to the Honorspren. Adolin naturally volunteered after that.  And the job was to deliver the message, to start a dialog to rebuild the relationship, not to be a full on ambassador. It was Adolin that took it upon himself to do more, because he didn't want to return a failure to his father yet again.  Plus sending Adolin made sense since he had been to Shadesmar before plus has ties to Dalinar and Jasnah. Plus if Shallan was going, he pretty much had to go. 

And he wasn't some legal genius -- he was destined to lose the trial without outside intervention. It was Blended that convinced the prosecution to call Maya as a witness, after she had looked up Maya's name, that lent considerable credibility to Adolin's claim that Maya told him her name.  It wasn't trial brilliance on Adolin's part.   

I think Brandon is channeling the "innate optimism" he talked about on his YouTube channel through Adolin, and is trying to show that good people can do good things. And maybe that a generally good person can still be an interesting (enough) character.

We'll have to see what comes next. The Shadesmar events may have significant ramifications in future books. Maybe in the back 5 books even.

2 hours ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

The screams.  We never heard Doomslug scream, did we?  That could be a reaction to traveling the nowhere.

He's using cytonics to move around all the time, so it has to be tied to being forced to use cytonics in some way. 

Great first read but a bit trope heavy, that may detract from re-rereads. Brade in particular was disappointing. Spensa waking up just in time to derail the coup hurt the ending. I really enjoyed how the Superiority was portrayed -- the hypocrisy, etc. was all really well done. Hope we see more Cobb in book 3!! 

14 hours ago, Kalaksbreath said:

Then why doesn’t she have plate yet because the skybreakers tell szeth that after the 4th ideal you get plate

Do we know that Lightweavers are supposed to get armor at rank 4?

Most obvious answer is Shallan is the one repressing her progression. She is in the order steeped in lies and truths after all. Though it's worth noting that Kaladin fast forwarded back to where he was once he got past his regression, so the perceptions of the radiant may be the most relevant factor (kind of like how Kaladin still has the slave brands).

Or they knew the children were of more interest (I think Mraize alludes to this at one point -- they just thought it was Heleran). They would need to plant the seeds for blackmail, control, etc. Also, taking advantage of one goal to achieve another as well plus providing a better cover for the ultimate goal (radiants).

On 9/21/2019 at 1:36 PM, Quantus said:

IN shallan's case there's also the complicating factor that she apparently progressed pretty far the first time, but regressed after she started repressing her memories of her parents.

We know from a WoB she was one oath/truth ahead of Kaladin at the end of WoR (putting her at 4), so we can also infer that Lightweaver's get their armor after the 5th truth and that regressing requires new truths to be spoken or she'd be at 5 already. If the trend follows then Kaladin finally speaks his 4th and Shallan her 5th in the next book. And hopefully we figure out where Jasnah is, though with a back 5 book, one has to wonder how many reach the 5th in the front 5.

Back on topic, Renarin and Adolin are wildcards. At a guess the third oath applies to Renarin. Assuming Adolin awakens his blade, how far will he have progressed by then? Given how hard that's supposed to be, he may need to reach the 4th or 5th before his blade awakens.

On 9/12/2019 at 8:44 AM, Quantus said:

True, but we're talking about the back half of Stormlight, which if Im not mistaken is going to happen a good bit down the road in terms of overall cosmere publication timeline.  We know there will be heaving worldhopping in Scadrial era4, and a decent chance at it playing a role in Era3.  Besides that Roshar is really the only other one with established worldhopping with all the Shadesmar spren civilization and trade routes (and whatnot). Worldhopping is going to have to start playing a bigger role, if only to give a chance to establish its rules before things start to really get moving on endgame story lines. 

Last I heard the back half are a fairly short time after, like maybe 30 years.  And the Stormlight Archive is supposed to be self-contained so that Cosmere knowledge is not needed to enjoy the series.  Mistborn Era 4 is where the main Cosmere end game will happen (as further evidenced by Secret History, which targets die hard fans).

11 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

.... I'm just trying to understand how someone can possibly think that Venli/her situation isn't interesting.  She was secretly scheming behind the Parshendi's backs, and unwittingly was aiding the enemy, which resulted in the deaths of almost everyone she knew.  Now she's a secret agent in the midst of Odium's forces, hiding the fact that she's a Surgebinder, and will (presumably) be working against them.  

Her situation is interesting and that helped carry those scenes even when they felt trope heavy. They just didn't make her interesting. More screen time to flesh things out could have helped (and then another pass or two to tighten the writing up to get the page count down again). I don't think Brandon had time to to do that, and as you say, it may be taken care of in SA4, which may be fine.

12 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

... I find it difficult to see how Venli isn’t considered an interesting character. 

She’s the first-ever Parshendi Surgebinder, who’s also a double agent right under Odium/the Fused’s noses. 

Neither of those make her interesting.  You're just implying that magic is interesting and the situation is interesting. And neither of those are that interesting to me. I'm not a die hard fanatic of the magic systems so that doesn't do anything for me. And having to keep the spren a secret felt like a way to create artificial drama at times. 

12 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

She was also secretly working for Odium originally, and is responsible for the current Desolation. 

That's not enough to make the character interesting on it's own, and Brandon hasn't done much with it that doesn't feel like a trope.

I'm starting to think Brandon never planned to develop her in SA3 -- it's just setup for SA4 for her. Or maybe it's the result of not wanting to delay the book another year (I'm assuming that Tor does not want a mid-year release, so e.g. even if Brandon needed a month or two more on it, those would still result delaying it a year).

The problem with Szeth is Brandon is doing too much handwaving with him (like how he joins up with Team Dalinar, the retcon at the end of WoR). It detracts from the character. Feels like Brandon is rushing these novels a bit too much.

As for my favorites, I've been a big Shallan fan, because of her personality, the art angle, and her struggles. Though Dalinar may have edged her out in OB. After them, Adolin and Kaladin. Kaladin's depression drags him down for me a little bit (and similarly, Shallan's most recent problems are starting to wear a little thin). Adolin has been a source of interesting perspectives throughout, and I'm looking forward to him awakening his blade.  I cringed at the thought of a novella for Lift, as she's too silly for my tastes, but Brandon did a good job making that novella interesting and making Lift interesting. Her pairing with Szeth was interesting, though in some ways it makes sense since there's no bad blood there and I don't see her getting hung up on past mistakes. Ship once Lift is older anyone?

I agree Brandon needs to commit to it now, but like I said above, I think he needs to use Eshonai's flashbacks to help draw the readers in that don't like or care about Venli. Maybe we'll see Venli faced with a tough decision and she'll reflect back on something Eshonai did to help her decide which choice to make. That could work (i.e. a Venli flashback of Eshonai).

Dang, Adolin vs. Renarin could work. I hope it doesn't play out that way, but they've been in all three books, it's tragic on so many levels, and even keeps it all within the Kholin family.  Though Justin had some good points up above about Odium not even being aware of Renarin that makes it less likely.

Given SA's slightly Anime/Manga vibe, it could make sense for the two champions to have had past encounters. That favors Moash again, though Adolin vs. Moash could work. Though I have to admit that bxcnch's suggestion that  Kaladin vs. Moash works better for SA4 makes a lot of sense to me. Though if Kaladin decides he has to sacrifice others to stop Moash from doing something, that would still work for a SA5 climax. 

What about Adolin vs. Moash? That whole killing Elokhar thing could come into play. 

I wonder if Brandon wants it to be more diverse, such as a male vs. female battle? That would favor Jasnah, Shallan, Venli (tragic she fighting her own people and would be a story of redemption) or  probably getting too crazy, even Lift.

Eshonai was an extremely interesting character I wanted to see much much more of. I sadly couldn't care less about Venli, and currently prefer she gets killed off so interesting characters get more screen time.  So he needs to either find a way to make Venli interesting as a character fast or make sure there's enough interesting stuff going on that the book can carry her along the way while he catches up on developing her. And I don't see how Venli flashbacks will help with that given readers that dislike her or don't care about her are going to feel like her flashbacks are a grind.  Better to start with Eshonai flashbacks to help pull those readers in. I could see round-robin flashbacks, or starting with Eshonai flashbacks then shifting to Venli ones, but starting with Venli flashbacks for a character that he's failed to develop properly risks compounding that mistake.

Brandon does like his tragedies, but Dalinar vs. Renarin feels too forced and more in line with a truly brutal epic series like Malazan Book of the Fallen. Why does Kaladin vs. Moash feel too obvious?  Because we've had three books of character development leading to that conclusion, including all the back story and ancillary interactions such as with Elokhar and Amaram.  Dalinar seems like the other obvious choice for human champion, but I wonder if his ties with Honor have made him too powerful to take on that role now.  There are plenty of other opportunities for surprises, tragedies, etc.  and of the characters that have been in all three books, it feels like Kaladin and Moash are being written for those roles. I wouldn't put it past Brandon to want something more straightforward for "casual" fans, and at some point, you should go with the flow of the arcs you've written vs. forcing a change.

With that said, I think odds of Adolin going rogue dropped considerably after OB, leaving him as another possibility to represent humanity. I just don't know what pairing makes sense (other than bringing Sadeas back somehow).  Jasnah has enough sorceress vibe going on that I think it could be flashy enough, but she has her own book in the back 5, so if the champion battle is in the front five I think that that rules her out. Doesn't Renarin have a book in the back five as well? That probably rules him out, especially if the books focus on "good" or "neutral" characters like they have so far.  Still feels like Kaladin vs. Moash even though it does feel too obvious. But if the hardcore fans think it's too obvious to believe, then that may be good enough for Brandon to go with it (no doubt cackling with glee at having played his fans so well  )

I don't recall any use of mushrooms in Defending Elysium, and it didn't sound like they were used on the colony ship before being forced to the planet.