Rakei

I'd say it's more the opposite, that Odium is the shard, the literal "Divine Hatred of God" and with Rayse it's become confused or tainted to feel like it should be passion. Like Rayse took up this shard willingly and surely it was because it was considered the most powerful of the shards, but also because Rayse believed that maybe it could be directed in a sense and that sense could be instead of hatred maybe it could present itself more like a drive, a lust for something a passion as they claim. perhaps Passion is a deep mix of feelings in a sense something hatred definitely could be a part of. I have to imagine that Divine Hatred is a different beast that mortal hatred, but perhaps when the shards were all as one it functioned as a driving force for ambition, honor, preservation survival and ruin etc.

I'm not sure that's at all what he's implying. We learn later when the dawnchant is translated that Honor went to great lengths to keep the truth from the KR so that they wouldn't foreswear their oaths as he was certain they would. Notum likely think it's much more likely to happen again when it's rediscovered that Humans are the actual Voidbringers and that they destroyed their own world. Supposedly with Surges.

I honestly think it makes the most sense, especially since it's a cultivation spren, and it's a definite sacrifice. Like do you really want a curse to revive this dead spren when you're likely to be able to attract a living one. I also think you misunderstood my meaning when I said fit? I meant literally she was bound together with a person with a spiritweb that's unique to that person, whatever bits are missing it's still never gonna be the same as the one she bonded to before.

I agree, I find it very sad that we would have an argument about is "Adolin good enough/broken enough to be a Radiant?" especially with what Oathbringer revealed about the past he has lived. I think perhaps people are confused about what it means to be broken? We've been shown over and over that there doesn't have to be any outward sign of it like both Shallan and Jashnah are for the most part outwardly fine, the same goes for the Bridgemen now. If as I suspect you only need one trauma to get broken and not necessarily a clinically identifiable condition, Adolin fits the bill. He's just been molded by the patriarchal structure not to show exactly what's wrong with him. How is he broken? We for starters for most of his youth and young adult life his father was an addict and a drunk with quick shifts in temper. Adolin was the older of the two children with a mother who was considered not a good Alethi woman, so he'd have to shoulder a lot of responsibility, especially after Evi's death which also would have come as a trauma to him, losing his mother to what he believes are assassins and having to deal with Dalinars drinking and trying to maintain outward calm and dealing with being in the spotlight as well. We're never shown how Adolin feels about these things except once when he's in a heated argument with was it Gavilar and Elhokar? Elhokar and Jashnah? anyway about his drinking which Dalinar overhears in the past. But we haven't seen any of those things from Adolins PoV. It's possible that one could leverage his shallow distractions as the anti-thesis of his pursuit of the Divine attributes associated with an Edgedancer Loving and Healing, it just needs more meat I think. Tefts third ideal deals with his feelings about himself, Adolin could have a similar personal issue to swear about. I just think it's impossible to revive Maya fully without intervention by Cultivation, I'd fully expect Adolin might seek the Nightwatcher to see if Maya can be brought back. I suspect it will be painful as hell to meld together with a puzzle piece that doesn't fit you. But I can see Adolin being willing to do that.

That's fascinating. Sadly it'll likely be ages before we get that information. However in the letter sent to Hoid by Endowment he does say If the agreement is just no interference with another, that's a very subjective thing. Interference implies hindrance and obtrusion. Honor could have seen his and Cultivations settling together not as interference at all, but a mutually beneficial partnership and therefore not something that broke the agreement. I'm not certain we know enough about the past with Aona and Skai and if they were helping on interfering with the other. Arguably Ruin and Preservation did the same as Cultivation and Honor until their shardic intents started driving them apart and to a confrontation to the death, they literally started interfering with the other. If anything Odium is the biggest oathbreaker because his entire purpose seems to involve interfering with the others and splintering them.

Ah confirmation is good. I suppose the humans could have been from before the shattering of Adonalsium too. Two shards settling in the same system but not on same planets seems like it could be one of those situations where the letter of the law was kept but the spirit was disregarded, which is in line with Honors make up. Thus Odium couldn't really shield himself from disregard from other shards if he'd gone in directly after one of the other. After the fall of Ashyn he'd be able to say, well look they broke our agreement, now two shards are in the same place. Then he got himself played a bit. I do so hope more history is revealed so we can get a better understanding of how this whole situation came about.

I've always found this highly suspect. We are told that humans brought the void with them to Roshar by the Dawnsingers, who wouldn't exactly be unbiased. They say that humans brought odium and he was their god. While Syl agrees with this. There just seems like something is missing, Like why would he invest anything in a place with no shard at all to defeat? I'm wondering if the humans from Ashyn weren't Cultivations people, they talk about the Old Magic which would make sense from that kind of view, as that's the system she's implicated in. It seems weird that Honor and Cultivation would take in the people of their enemy and give them shelter especially when they destroyed their own home with the same kind of magic but twisted to the magic granted by spren bond. Still think the Dawnshards are voidbound fabrials. There is some good reason why the Aimians don't want anyone coming to Aimia where we're told the Soulcasters came from.

Now before saying anything I have to preface this with I'm trash. But personally the only person I've shipped Kaladin with is Adolin. There is just such wealth of potential there, the fanfic'er in me just melts at the thought. Both have strong personalities that bump against each other without directly clashing, there is growing respect between them as they've learned more about the other. There is good balance betwixt them too on a personal level, making up for the "defects" of the other in certain ways, Kaladin primarily being terrible at expressing himself, Adolin being much better, Adolin lacks leadership ability and he's not as good as Kaladin in big picture thinking. Ah the ship sails it self... Of course that's never going to happen. On a canon level, I honestly don't think there is a good possibility, I never cared for Shalladin. It just seems like it could be easily very toxic, the way Syl talked about Kaladin engaging in something with Shallan was horrifying to me. It sounded like she just doesn't have any concern for Shallan and really only views her as a convenient way to make sure Kaladin is distracted from the Depression. Kind of like how Tien helped, but like I said more toxic. Jashnah is one that feels very aunt like to me, their interaction has been explosive and not really in a good way, I don't think there is much chance there. But perhaps she and Venli... Ah an idea. The other women is about the same. They all have very obvious issues that can easily be exacerbated by rushing into anything. Before Tarah was fully introduced I just saw Kaladin as Ace and kinda left it at that. ace representation matters. But obvious that's not where things will go, but I'd prefer him to remain apart for now. It just seems a shame to mix in a relationship. especially as I've always felt that Sanderson isn't lets say gifted in writing them. Overall my impression has been rather meh about them at least.

There is certainly a lot of things that are hidden from us right now about the history. I'm not surprised by this turn of events at all, Brandon does like to shake things up with the unexpected. I think there is a hidden implication to the story of "The Girl Who Looked Up" the whole story seems to describe the early days of humans on Roshar. Let me explain. So we know the Dawnsingers at the word of the Gods (Cultivation and Honor?) took in the humans that fled the destruction of their home world like a combination of Odium and Voidbinding (Which I don't know if we have a theory on yet, but I get the sense that it's likely about binding surges (Spren) in perfect crystals so they can be used again and again and with no bonds to temper the power and Odium around they destroyed the world.) So Humans destroyed their world and the Dawnsingers take them in. But they're not taken in with open arms, they know the humans are dangerous (monsters) and so they put them in a place that's encircled by a mountain range (a wall) and they're told they must not leave and never step foot on stone (hence the Shin aversion to anyone standing on stone). At some point some humans decide why should we not explore the world? They cross the mountains (climb the wall) and find the world filled with wonder. So they broke whatever promise had been made. Likely war started up. So the cycle of war began, and Odium became involved and on and on it goes. It does seem like the story is about trying to break that cycle and coexist and through coexistence progress. I hope we get more pieces of the story later like we did with Mistborn.

I don't believe anything is incompatible with the first oath tbh. It's extremely accessible, many of our mains actively battle self-destructive tendencies, in fact it's basically a requirement. It's when a certain spren gets involved that things gets more tricky. Like Kaladin mentions about Syl taking away his abilities when he's going against his word. It seems like it's a function of the both of them together knowing what he's doing is wrong.

That's actually rather interesting and it might be the other way around. So it could be that the Recreance and the breaking of oaths ripped identity from the spren, we haven't seen another deadeye to contrast and compare I think? So if they all become similar, with "ragged clothing" it could be that Mayalaran is becoming a cultivationspren in response to Adolin. Which could mean that all the dead Blades are like blank slates onto which the bearer needs to pour identity so they can gain life anew.

Anyone could swear the first ideal, it's just a general one, I don't think any of the Bridge crew had a certain spren interested in them, and the Skybreakers swear that one before, it's like a statement of intent? The Skybreakers name it the Ideal of Radiance. It's like a precursor to everything, like I'm willing to try to become a Radiant. I think at the very least Adolin would have to speak those words, put it out in the world. Just so we're clear I have no issue either way. Adolin does love his family and those close to him, but is that enough? The Second Ideal (Lift swears, they all seem rather fluid about what works) is remembering those who are forgotten, the question is does Adolin try to remember more than just his Mom and those close to him? And is it something he wants to do? The Healing attribute is a little harder to deal with, is it a wish to be able to heal? is it a commitment to provide healing? physical, mental or spiritual, all three or just one? Well I certainly hope we actually get to see some of the struggles and we don't timeskip to a place where anything is just handwaved.

It is possible to fit into multiple orders I think the most important aspect is what the person strives and aspires to be, not so much the thing they inherently are? I find it telling that the WoB is I think so, cause it just seems like it's not decided yet. It's an interesting thing because many of the others struggle against a character flaw that's the opposite of whatever they're striving for. Some more so than others, but I'd like to see more of Adolin's internal struggles, maybe it's been too long since I read the first two books. The one thing that's for sure is that something interesting is bound to happen with the whole situation. It would be fascinating if a shardblade could be brought back without having to be bonded to the one who brought it back. If I'm correct Adolin hasn't even sworn the first general Radience Ideal, so he might not become a Radient at all, plot twist.

See that was my sense of Adolin, he's working on improving himself, from WoK where he was a foppish mess, who couldn't really be depended upon for much. But he's been progressing in a direction of being available and steady for his father, his brother, Shallan and everyone. The killing of Sadeas is inline with it to some extend but I also think it is a deviation from the right path like letting Elhokar be killed deviated Kaladin from his path. We don't know much about Stonewards, and Selfsacrifice might be part of it, but it also seems there is some latitude in what qualifies a person on their path, Like Szeth choosing a different kind of Justice to seek and follow. The one or two edgedancers we know of both seem to embrace a sort of selflessness and a deep love of life. I don't see much similarity between Lift and Adolin, and though I said there was some latitude in how you take the oaths, I just feel like Adolin has been built more for towards dependable, even though he's also shown some selfless actions.

So I'm on the fence. Like the idea of a spren coming back from oblivion and unlife is very interesting, and I do think Adolin has the potential for Radiance. What I'm not sure I feel from him is an aspiration towards the Divine Attributes of Loving and Healing outside of feeling a connection to Maya. Is that just me? All the others I feel like seek to embody the attributes associated with their Order in general, they also all seem to battle in some sense the antithesis of those Attributes, so take Shallan, she strives for creativity and honesty (when she has to come clean about things she usually feels good about it, and she dislikes not being truthful) and she's constantly in a battle against her own dishonesty. In some way I can see it, but I also think it would require more character growth in that direction.

So I'm reading Oathbringer again and I was just reading the bit where Dalinar is observing the soldiers carrying around spheres "for luck" to try to become radiant and the storm father says. So what I took that to mean is to swear the first oath and become radiant you must strive for a specific divine attribute, and then start drawing in light to fulfill the promise. So every order and their oaths are connected to a divine attribute and once they swear that second oath they bind the spren truly I believe that one of the third one I'm not quite certain. But we've seen what happens with Kaladin and Syl when he veers off his divine purpose their bond breaks. Perhaps it's stronger now with greater oaths and that leads to greater flexibility.

No problem I just found the section.

I was reading the chapter with the confrontation between Re-shepir and Shallan and she makes the grim observation that She seems like a creation-spren, a dark twisted creation spren. So I had the thought that perhaps the unmade are all spren related to the radiants, but twisted by Odium into something different. When you look at their descriptions and names, there are some things that could hint at that, where a type of spren that might be linked to a Knight Radiant they do do similar or opposin/twisted things. Sja-anat could for instance be a twisted spren associted with elsecallers, perhaps an inkspren, something that gave her the ability to transform and bring "insight" (related to wisdom which is related to Elsecallers) Chemoarish is called the Dust mother (similar to Dust bringer) There is also Yelig-nar called Blightwind again the wind like Windrunner. Some of them are considered mindless, and others seem like individuals, so it could be that the former were secondary spren, like creation spren and the latter were primary spren. Ba-ado-mishram is considered intelligent, and It gave singers connection and such, the Lightspren of willshapers can seemingly communicate in someway that means they all seem to know the same thing (at least on the ship in shadesmar) It's just something I was thinking about, but it seems as plausible as anything as we really know so little about them.

Sure, the comparison was meant to be relatable to more people. But It's exceptionally difficult to imagine Shallan being open to a romantic entanglement with the person who killed her brother. Sure she got vaguely over Amaram having killed him, but she still resented him, and that's based on her speculation that her brother was trying to kill him in war. Now that she's part of the Ghostbloods she's likely to discover that Amaram was trying to bring about the desolation and her brother was trying to stop it. You'd figure her feelings might change based on that discovery. So she'd have to truly and deeply forgive Kaladin from the depths of her soul, she'd have to somehow manage to not bear any resentment or anger towards him for Killing her brother. Not just logically understand that he was acting in his own context as a soldier. I think it'd would be a fools errand to try to make that believable. That's not even considering Kaladin and his weird world view, I'm not quite certain we know exactly how he feels about the fact that he killed Heleran. It was clearly laid out that Kaladin blame(s?/ed?) Elhokar and Dalinar in some part for the death of Tien (because they sent Roshone out to wreak havoc away from the court), so he's certainly capable of holding something of a grudge for the death of his men that Amaram killed because Heleran was there and had shardplate and was defeated which made Amaram kill them. Kaladin has a very strange view of responsibility and such. At the top of those things are is the fact that they're diametrical opposites when it comes to Spren and way of viewing the world.

So I've been interpreting Kaladin as ace. He doesn't seem to have any real interest in love, I just interpret him as completely uninterested in any kind of relationship, he didn't consider the fact that the men of the Bridge Crews might need family housing, he found the date he was along on a complete waste of time. That's just my interpretation of him. Regardless of that, when this comes up I always stumble at what I consider the greatest hurdle (besides the Ace factor) the fact that Kaladin killed Shallan's favourite brother. It especially surprises me when people think Adolin's murder of Sadeas will make her just fall into Kaladin's arms... I just wouldn't be able to believe it, It's like if you found out the person you were going out with was the one responsible for a traffic accident that killed one of your family members, you wouldn't feel the same about that after that.

I assume the lighteyes change will become permanent when all the oaths are spoken, because we know at least darkeyes that link with a shardblade have their eyes lightened to some extent, because Moash's eyes turned tan from a very dark brown.

Ok I'll concede T could possibly know of worldhopping, but it also stands to reason that T might not be aware that humanity exists elsewhere in the cosmere, He could believe that the wanderer and the ghostbloods are originally from Roshar. Or and this is an interesting theory I just thought of, perhaps the ancestors of the Rosharan people were humans that fled from Yolen (Yolen = Tranquilline Halls) and T has the belief that they're therefore part of the original humans and therefore special in a different way from others, and more important to maintain that seed of humanity. I remember at least on Scadrial humans were created by the shards there, Roshar has a mythology about a mysterious heavenly place from which they were displaced, so far on Roshar the theology/mythology has been uncannily true, the myths of voidbringers and heralds and Knights Radiants and desolations all true (though more fiction to some than others). Anyhow yes I concede T likely knew of worldhopping (also knew it was very obscure and not a viable solution to his issues)

I see most of the argument is that the plan is outdated, but I see very little proof that it necessarily is outdated. The Diagram seems on a large scale highly non-specific and more general, with few specific details that are of importance. The diagram isn't completely correct anymore, somethings that have happened have been off by a slight degree according to what we've been shown so far. Now assuming you know and can account for all variables and parameters prediction of the future would be possible, that's how I assume the diagram came to be, by taravangian having access to knowledge on all of those parameters and variables, he's able to make a model a Diagram that predicts the future to such a degree that it's like he can see it, then suppose he knew of the possibility of KR's and the unpredictability of them, he'd scatter them in various forms through his calculations and still come to believe it's unreliable to try to rely on KR's perhaps because 7/10 times they fail, so he determines it'd be better for humanity if they didn't interfere with the "correct path". Think of the diagram as a weather-climate model, we can to some degree predict with a high level of certainty where and how weather will act in the near future, we can also with a very high degree of certainty predict, global climate many years into the future (we've been doing so since the 80s) We can't know the exact shape of the weather at any given time, but it's possible to say how it's most likely going to look like. I think the same sort of logic applies to the diagram, and they do speak of having to adjust it and take into account different things, as I understood that's what T tries to do on his brightest days, but he'd ideally like another burst to revisit the whole thing and update it to be more accurate again. It also could be that it's accurate enough to keep following and it allows for enough deviation for it's goal to still be reachable even if the variations mean more/less people are saved. Azir falling out of the more direct control of T's hands might just be an allowable deviation, that doesn't matter too much in the long run. of course I also think the gathering of the knights will be the end of the diagram as a viable path.

Almost entirely certain Shallan has no grasp of how soul-casting works, she had to beg and plead with the ship to do something of it's own will, coaxing it to change to save the beings that gave it purpose. Then with the stick she had nothing to "offer" and no will to enforce the change she wanted. Also, shallan is barely a con woman, she mostly skated by through her lightweaving ability and the few pieces of advice given to her by Jasnah and Tyn about perception.

I have to disagree on a few points. I don't personally think Taravangian was influenced by odium when writing the diagram, there is no reason for Taravangian to have knowledge of worldhopping, perhaps he has an inkling of the possibility, but to him Roshar would be the only place where humanity exists, and his primary motivation throughout the Diagram is the survival of the human species. The Diagram as I'm understanding it was on statistics and probability, Taravangian in his one day of supreme capacity saw the future laid out for him as a series of branching rivers with probability of those futures laid out as well. Taravangian writing the diagram found the best solution, the one with the most probability of succeeding in his purpose - to save a seed of humanity. Were there futures that were more dire or even futures of great success? I'd assume yes, but the likelyhood of these futures would be worse than the one he picked for the diagram, they probably included the rise of new KR's to try and save humanity, as well as the division of humans, which is the reason for his removing the figures of power to take control and forge humanity together while trying to keep KRs out of it. Humans don't act rationally at all levels, I mean we can just look at our own world, the issues we're faced with don't make us do the rational thing, because of other interests. Taravangian decided, to hell with the middle part, we don't have the luxury to squabble, I'll take the reins and save a seed of humanity to survive what's coming. I don't think that's evil, it's just a very amoral way of thinking, but something that might be necessary.