fiveAM

Concerning the boon. the guy in the interlude mentions that you ask a boon of the Nightwatcher but the Nighwatcher only gives what he/she(?) thinks you deserve, along with a curse to boot. So it's possible that what Dalinar asked for and what he actually got are different.

Wow.. stupid internet messed up twice while posting... But basically, we actually don't know if the Shin know more about windrunning than the rest of Roshar. We know Szeth can do Lashes, but as stated by BS we also know that it's not powered by Honor but something else. We know Szeth is Truthless, but why? Because his powers are not by Honor? Because he can do Lashes? Because he uses a Blade (we don't know if Szeth was given the Blade, or if he took it)? Something else entirely? We don't know WHY he's shunned, and some of these possibilities go against your Honor connection. So you have, as you've said, made a statement "without enough evidence" as well. But that's fine, what else is the point of theorizing on forums? If we couldn't do that, might as well ban theories all together. I've felt a bit uncomfortable for a while now, as this topic has basically overrun the original one. If you want to discuss this more, feel free to make a new thread with a proper title, and maybe we'll get more people involved in this discussion too.

I always sort of saw it as Arangar sort of finding it as some sort of twisted, sarcastic pleasure. Kind of like, "Yeah, lesbian sex but guess what! i'm actually dude!" So considering that bisexual if anything but i wouldn't really call that homosexual.

Hahaha. It would probably end up warping the command somehow too. Like only going to suns?

Maybe fabrials are based on Plates and the topaz and heliodor in Dalinar's vision is just really the gems and doesn't do anything but hold stormlight.

i'm not saying that just because there're normal grass there. I'm haven't even used the grass specifically as evidence. I'm talking about Shinovar's culture, or at least what we've seen of it, show great value in farming and farming related things and how it produces so much. I'm sure BS's contrast of the farming and warrior way of life in Roshar is no accident. We see it in the Horneaters (hierarchy and occupation of the sons), Shinovar, and even Kaladin's childhood chapters. Also, the interlude where we see Shinovar shows the Shin trading horses, chicken, cloth, and dried meats (page 435). All that related to farming, having to do with animals or plants, things that grow and are cultivated. With cultivation products such in such abundance in Shinovar, why would you say that Shinovar isn't getting any benefits from Cultivation? Not everything a Shard does has to be so dramatic and obvious. Soil eventually runs out of nutrients if farmed too much, which is why fertilizer are need and farmers rotate crops, and naturally rich soil is best for farming. Farming enough to have that as nearly the sole export of a small country mean they have VERY rich soil to produce so much. You're saying that since crem isn't in Shinovar, so that doesn't make sense it can be a place of Cultivation. If Cultivation has a lot of influence in Shinovar's environment, would she limit her self to only that place? Cultivation could have easily had crem come in highstorms because the rest of Roshar would need it. Why would she have crem fall in Shinovar too? It's redundant. What if the soil in Shinovar has crem or a crem like substitute in it?

Dalinar's boon/curse or at least what he asked for seems to have something to do with Renarin however. In the scene where Navani presses Dalinar about his visit to the Nightwatcher, Daliner has trouble meeting Renarin's eyes and says something along the lines of, "how does he feel, does he blame me? is losing the memories of my wife not curse enough?". It appears the losing of the memories is the curse, so it appears Renarin must have something to do with the boon (probably something to do with his blood-sickness). Considering that, it seems unlikely that Dalinar asked to be the greatest warrior alive. On a side note, i'm not exactly sure of the timeline but I've always assumed Dalinar had been on a bunch of campaigns and established, at least the beginnings, of his reputation as the Black Thorne before he even met his wife, but i could easily be wrong on this.

Shinovar has dirt, rest of Roshar doesn't, the interlude mentions that and the narrator wonders about how it doesn't all get blown away, and then we're told there're no highstorms in Shinovar. Basically crem isn't necessary in Shinovar, so it doesn't matter if have crem or not. It actually might be harmful, who knows how crem and normal dirt nutrients differ in nourishing plants? The basic biology of absorbing nutrients could be totally different.

Well, it's possible that not all of Soulcasting behaves the same? Some are instant, some are more gradual. Also, it could have to do with affinity. When about to Soulcast Shallan's blood, Jasnah talks about how she's weak in Blood or something like (sorry no book to give quote). It seems not completely out there to say that Jasnah's strength may lie somewhere in her smokestone and smoke? She turns the huge pillar into smoke instantly, and doesn't she also turn one of the footpads into smoke (although i think i might be remembering that wrong). I know she turned one into fire, another into quartz, and were the other 2 smoke? There could also be that more difficult Transformations are more gradual. Like Soulcasting building from thin air, and rapid healing I would say be pretty high level stuff whichever way you look at it. The blood welling up for Shallan could also be because it was her first time Soulcasting and she didn't know how to properly use her power to Soulcast

I don't think so but Syl doesn't comment on Sadeas does she? For most of the book he only has the Plate so that could have made a more clear distinction. Maybe in book 2 with Renarin.

Hmm.. the fact about soulcasting being instant while Regrowth seems gradual bring a new perspective for me, I totally missed that. I am inclined to say that it is very likely that Regrowth is not soulcasting, but I don't think that necessarily puts Soulcasting completely off the table. But in any case, Regrowth seems to probably be of another Surge that like Soulcasting uses gems as a medium/catalyst/whatever, but I still think Regrowth is not an actual Surge itself but an application of it, like Basic Lashings.

Mm. I remember thinking that quote about Dalinar finding it hard to meet Renarin's eyes odd when I read it but i had totally forgotten about it. Very interesting... That makes a LOT of sense. Thanks for pointing out that thread, lots of cool stuff there. I think I might start leaning towards that theory too.

Yeah, I was thinking that too, but the theory just ends there, there's no evidence or clues to where it could be at all.

I was thinking, is Kaladin's vision of riding the storm really just a vision? Him rustling the skirts a bit of a weak argument but he seems to effect the surroundings a little. However, Szeth seems to be able to see Kaladin "riding the storm". It's a bit shaky, as the language leaves it a bit ambiguous, but IF Szeth really did see or notice something there if not concretely, Kaladin's vision could be less of a vision and more of a throwing his conscience out of his body or some thing like that. Something like him separating his spiritual form from his body, letting it ride the wind (windrunners) and see things far away. I guess it could still be called a "vision" but it seems different from Dalinar's visions. Kaladin isn't given the visions from somebody, but it seems more like an extension of his powers. Also, the voice in the vision tells him that it is dangerous and men should no longer ride the storms, and banishes him out of it. Again, things can still go either way, but somehow I feel like it's not just a vision but a form of scrying with a spiritual body. Haha, don't really know if i'm making sense.

Actually, I would say that FABRIALS aren't necessary, but gems/spheres seem to be. IF we see visiting Shadesmar as an extension of Soulcasting and not some other ability, though it appear to be the case from Jasnah's confirmation of the symbolheads to be related to Shadesmar and Soulcasting (Hardcover page 978) It appears visiting Shadesmar (Soulcasting) and surviving/manipulating the beads requires gems/spheres and it is folly to do so without any but a single dim sphere. This part is very revealing: (1) Jasnah cares for Shallan and wants to save her, and time is of the essence. (2) Jasnah needs a garnet, which her Soulcaster does not have. (3) If Jasnah did NOT need gems to Soulcast, With someone close to her dying and no one around her who knows how a Soulcaster really works(no need to hide/easily explain later) why not just go ahead and Soulcast Shallan blood? Why NEED a garnet? Jasnah's facade of not needing a Soulcaster to Soulcast is preserved either way, so why need a garnet so bad? With the 2nd quote above, and this one here, we see that Jasnah was completely unaware that her Soulcaster had been swapped. So we can safely say that Jasnah was not trying to corner Shallan into confessing/revealing her switching of the Soulcaster in that situation. Besides, that sort of round-about way of doing things doesn't seem to be Jasnah's style. Every other time we've seen Jasnah Soulcast we've seen her gems grow dim or crack, etc. I know when Jasnah attacks the footpads and kills them, it explicitly says her smokestone crystal gem cracks. In this scene, Jasnah also seems a bit lax on showing Shallan (True) Soulcasting with the lightning, not requiring to touch the object physically to Soulcast it. If that's the case, why let the smokestone crack thus making it so she needs to buy a new one? With only Shallan around, Jasnah could have not cracked the gem and keep using it to preserve the lie. Wow this reply grew long... Anyways, from all this, whether Regrowth is a part of Soulcasting or not(thought i still think it is), I would say Soulcasting does require gems, and infused gems seem to be better, if not necessary (first quote), but Soulcasting does NOT require a Soulcaster fabrial, although with this, one can also Soulcast though less effectively (no physical touch Soulcasting) and possibly to a less extent (unable to enter Shadesmar, high level Soulcasting impossible?).

it's not really about being impressive or not is it? It's not as if what i'm saying is that Cultivation effects only things in Shinovar. If we look at Scadrial, Ruin and Preservation's powers is seen everywhere. From the book we see that there is a place "closest to Honor". Also, there seems to be some implication that the Origin could be "a place close to Odium" though very debatable. So even if a place of Odium is not existent per se, if there IS a place of Honor, couldn't there also be a place of Cultivation? If that is the case, all I'm saying is that Shinovar seems more likely a place of Cultivation than the entirety of Roshar but Shinovar, being one and by elimination not a place of Honor. Also, yes, the crem could be of Cultivation, as it acts like some sort of fertilizer, but the highstorms don't seem to be of Cultivation, at least not ONLY of Cultivation.

I've actually always thought that Dalinar's boon and curse were the same. He couldn't bear the pain of losing his wife, so he asked the Nightwatcher to erase his memory of her, but it also ended being his curse (like the Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind).

what does "dumb plants" have anything to do with cultivation? it's not like the plants in the rest of Roshar are "smart". many flowers lean towards light sources does that make them smart? no it's just reaction to stimuli. the plants in the rest of Roshar have developed/evolved way to deal with highstorms, in Shinovar there are no highstorms, so wouldnt the plants be more "dumb" to be the same as the plants elsewhere? Also, Shinovar is a rich, fertile land where farmers are of high social status, meaning they hold importance to their way of life and therefore probably lots of farming happens there. Cultivation and farming are much closer to each other than any other occupation, and it is difficult to cultivate land that is ravaged by highstorms constantly. Just because the plants "grow normally" as you put it doesn't make the plants there less of Cultivation than the other plants. Also, we don't know if spren are of Cultivation or not. Spren aren't limited to things that could be associated with Cultivation, there're firespren, windspren, even deathspren. Spren could be due to the interaction between Honor and Cultivation and Odium, or not have to do with them at all. So the absence of spren doesn't mean absence of Cultivation. Are there lifespren? I know there are deathspren but i don't recall any mention of lifespren. sidenote: If there is Honorspren (ie. Syl) does that mean there could be Cultivationspren or Odiumspren?

Also, Hoid has many, many identities and he could have had one that was associated somehow with the Heralds, thus the preserving the connection of the Worldsingers, the Heralds, and Hoid.

I always thought Regrowth was part of Soulcasting.. I never really thought of it as a separate Surge. I don't know about you but the way the Radiant mentioned Regrowth seemed more like it to be a specific ability within her Ability/Surge. She doesn't say, "I should save my strength" but that she should save Regrowth. It sounds like Regrowth is limited in use, but the way she specifically mentions it makes it sound like she could run out of Regrowth but still be able to use other skills. This makes sense since she needed to use the topaz and heliodor to cast Regrowth. This action makes it like Soulcasting, which requires use of gems as a catalyst/power source(as the gem is sacrificed). Of course other Surges may require gems too, but I still think Regrowth is just a part of Soulcasting in the Blood category probably). Descriptions of the use of Soulcasting nowadays make it seem like Soulcasting is a sort of a lost art and people are still discovering how to do stuff that the Radiants knew long ago, and like the One Power in WoT where they call certain weaves by a name, like Traveling and Healing, it could just be a name for a particular skill in Soulcasting.

AWESOME! I always wanted to check out the correlation of the faces with characters and plot stuff. I think the Interlude at the Pure Lake could have to do with Hoid specifically still because the 2 strangers are looking for Hoid.

They are/were called the Envisagers. It would make sense, a secret society to preserve the old knowledge.

IF this were true, what kind of curse would have been put on Dalinar? They boon and curse are supposed to balance out evenly, to a point that apparently no1 ever feels like they were cheated or got a really good deal. Considering how that would TOTALLY mess with the 'real' Navani's life (kidnapping, imprisonment, memory change?), and warp the memories of thousands of people... the curse would have to include more than just Dalinar not being able to remember his wife. I feel the curse would have to be on the level of Dalinar losing someone else too but as happyman has said there's no evidence of anyone other than the person asking being directly affected with a curse/boon.

I've read a theory somewhere that puts Shinovar to Cultivation's domain/area. It sort of makes sense with all the lush wildlife there and the grass. Also, lots of honor is found on the battlefield, people thought that especially in medieval times, where honor was basically equated with war and they even had jousting and fighting tournaments when there wasn't any wars where honor was waged and won, and we've seen similar conventions with Adolin and his dueling. So if you look at it that way, it seems very odd that Shinovar would be a place of honor/Honor where warriors are so lowly of a social class. We have also seen that the farmers are of a very HIGH social class which feeds more into Shinovar being of Cultivation. Also, if you think about it, the people of Alethkar/Alethala are the fighters, I believe this is mentioned in one of the visions(?) I forget exactly where, but the quote goes something along the lines of, "a group of people to grow strong and fight, fight so that the rest may live in peace..." (This goes into my theory that the Thrill is NOT an Odium corruption but something built in to them either naturally or by Honor/Cultivation. The Thrill helps them fight, they feel less fatigued, and more strength to strike their foe down, also Kaladin does NOT feel the Thrill, which may suggest it is built into the light eyes only). I would argue that Dalinar's sickening feeling during the battle could be the realization of the corrupt use of the Thrill, which was (given by Honor? and) meant to be used to help them protect people but is used for simple killing, but i digress.) For whatever reason that Radiants' home base could not be built in Alethala, why would they place it as far as possible from the battle front? It almost seems like the mountains in the middle of the map where Nighwatcher is supposed to be is as likely a place. People who go there seem to not talk about it with other people, they are secretive about the whole affair, and people in general don't pry, so it seem possible they are going into the ruins of Urithiru but don't talk about it so Urithiru remains "lost". And... to contribute to the thread... (1)I feel Rock's abilities with the bow (although he's not supposed to have handled them) could play a part. and (2) GAZ!!!! and.. maybe (3) Hoid/Wit's apprentice, I forget his name

I'm of the opinion that it seems irresponsible to jump to the conclusion that Plates previously didn't need gems. There just isn't evidence of that. In Dalinar's visions, the differences in the Plates of the Radiants and the Plates now that he mentions are: (1) the glow, (2) the glyphs (the description says "etched" into the plate, not part of the glow) (3) the summoning/un-summoning nature of the helms. He does NOT mention anything else different, if the Radiants' Plates didn't require gems, then wouldn't have mentioned something? He sees the Radiants' armor when it is worn AND when they being taken off too. He also looks at the Plates closely enough in both the first vision and the Recreance vision to comment on the glyphs, etc. To me, there is NO evidence supporting the lack of gems used in the Radiants armor, and everything else points to the gems being there, except for it being explicitly mentioned, but why would he mention that? "The Radiants' Plates are different, they glow, there are glyphs, but they have gems..." This kind of thought doesn't make sense at all. Also, I agree in the thought that Syl is only aversive to the Blades, not the Plates.