ecohansen

One more speculative thread on a wonderful midweek day off work: So, in this thread ( http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/7012-elhokar-becomes-a-radiant/) there was a fair degree of disagreement over whether or not the symbolheads that Elhokar sees are in fact Cryptics, and whether, if they are, that means that he is a Lightweaver. The strongest competing theories seem to be that ( A ) he is in fact a Willshaper, or ( B ) Cryptics merely watch all important people, and Elhokar can see his watchers for some as-yet-unclear reason that doesn't require him to be a proto-radiant. I agree that the questions are far from settled, but to me, Elhokar's defining trait of manufacturing misleading scenarios (cutting the saddle-girth and lying about it) in order to reveal truths (that he is being watched) screams "lightweaver". If, for the sake of this thread, we temporarily assume that Elhokar is a Lightweaver, there is one major unresolved element of the lightweaver profile that he needs to meet: he needs to have a representational art to channel his weaving with. We've not seen any particularly notable hints about what that art might be, but why should we let that stop us from speculating? Since he is a male Alethi, he would have been strongly discouraged from painting or writing. I don't remember if there is definitive word on whether or not sculpture is a feminine art, but we can probably assume that it is (I thought I remembered a female sculpting competition in one of the feast scenes in WoR, but I can't seem to find it now). The fact that Elhokar physically manipulated the saddle-girth in order to manufacture his lie might suggest that he is a thwarted sculptor, but that is a bit tenuous. Another option, since he verbally conveys his fabrications, is that he is an oral storyteller. However, he doesn't seem to be any more gifted in this department than Shallan is, and Shallan has a separate art to channel her weaving. So how about it? Are there any hints I'm missing that might reveal which art Elhokar uses?

WoBs for Unkalaki and Herdazians being Parshendi hybrids: http://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/2ytg2h/-/crds34r?context=3 http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1084#9 WoB for Aimians being nonhuman: http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=977#179 The Parshendi Theoryland link actually says "There are *several* Roshar races that have Parshendi blood in them"--I'm now wondering, given the "eyes of red and blue" expression, if the Selay (or at least their Marebethian subgroup) might be a three-way human/Aimian/Parshendi mix.

Yeah, the translucent thing was headcanon. It seems like if the veins are visible, then the skin should be very pale and almost see-through, but it could just e straight-up varicose veins. And somehow I forgot that all the Selay were around the Purelake, hich was itself cataclysmically generated! Three peoples with blue features, three cataclysms. No wonder the Aimians have such a bad reputation, if this theory holds water. Last, I also recalled that the Marebethians are Selay, and it is the Marebethians who created the "eyes of red and blue" expression. Could the expression actually be older than its current explanation, and actually refer to what happens when a blue-featured person encounters a red spren?

So, a very simple speculation with almost no supporting evidence. It's obvious enough that I'm sure someone has come up with it before, but if so I can't find it. We know of two nonhuman intelligent races on Roshar: the Parshendi/Listeners and the Aimians. We know that the Parshendi hybridized with humans to make the Unkalaki/Horneaters and the Herdazians. The Unkalaki are typified by red hair, echoing the partially red skin of the Parshendi. The chief identifying feature of Herdazians--crystalline fingernails--is more ambiguous, but might echo the warform armor. Parshendi have red skin and left red-haired, mostly-human descendents. The Aimians have blue skin. There are two other races with blue skin: "blue skinned Natans" and Selay, with translucent skin showing a network of blue veins. The implication that Natans and Selay descend from Aimians is obvious. The Natan connection raises a few questions. First, it's on the opposite side of Roshar from Aimia. Since Derethil was from the west, maybe some of his crew was Aimian, and the Wandersail crossed the Origin and crashed in Natanatan? Second, Aimia was Scoured, and Natanatan was Shattered: two of the most violent events in Roshar history which haven't been definitively tied to desolations both happened to peoples that I'm proposing are related. Finally, having the Parshendi arise in a region belonging to a scion race of the continent's other nonhumans is intriguing. Anyway, sorry again if this has been proposed before. Discuss!

By the way, Aluminum, welcome! Magnificent question, and I wish I had relevant input. Have some welcome-upvotes instead!

I wasn't so much thinking of errors as I was really abstruse stuff like most of my threads, or some of Skaa's. I recognize that Brandon probably didn't consider the plate-tectonic implications of juxtaposing temperate and tropical zones near Hallandren. But, he did describe a world with such a juxtaposition. Is it therefore worthwhile to speculate about ways in which that world's magic could suppress earthquakes? Or, since I recognize that that was not an originally-intended part of the story, should I refrain? In other words, lots of Trekkies spend a lot of time explaining things in that universe even after the show's writers explicitly state that they put their efforts elsewhere--often, a trekkie will use scientific findings that didn't even exist at the time the show was written. If a trekkie uses a 2015 finding from Cern to explain warp drive behavior in an episode of the original series, is he still being true to the nature of the series, or is he betraying the series by inserting things the original writers couldn't possibly have intended?

Welcome! Upvotes or everyone!

Couldn't decide if this belonged here or in General Brandon, but decided on here.... So you're reading one of Brandon's books, and you come across something odd. Something intriguing. Time to start coming up with a Fan Theory! Woohoo! But how do you do it? In general, there are two broad options, with a spectrum in between them. Where do you think a reader should fall on the spectrum? First, you could can read exegetically (this is the approach I usually prefer). You assume that Sanderson is much, much smarter than you (probably a safe assumption), and therefore anything that appears anomalous or contradictory only SEEMS that way, and it is your job to find the truth resolving the problem. Because you trust the author absolutely, you don't really care what he intended: he gave you a universe with rules, and he gave you events that occurred in that universe, and it's your job to determine how the rules explain the events. The second approach is to read critically. You realize that, as awesome a worldbuilder as Brandon is, he's said he prefers to "err on the side of not enough worldbuilding" (http://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/1ced7z/iamstilla_novelist_named_brandon_sanderson_ama/).%C2'> You realize that it's impossible for any human to write a fully-detailed and self-consistent world into existence, and you respect the work too much to insert your own half-baked ideas into the universe when there's no evidence that that is what the author actually intended. I've always gotten a kick out of the fact that while the exegetical approach descends from monks reading holy texts, it tends to produce incredibly rigorous and scientific explanations of fictional universes--meanwhile, while critical reading derives from a more hard-scientific approach to a text, it tends to result in the explanation "it had to happen that way because of the plot." But what's y'all's opinion on the way we should read the Cosmere?

Maxal: Since adolin is the only one of the original mains who isn't getting his own book, do you think it is at all possible that the entire series is "his," following his character evolution through the POVs of others?

Venture, since you request no boon, you get no Boone: you are made Daniel Boone's neighbor, but he moves away as soon as he sees your chimney-smoke. I wish for a global economic system that ensures that 1000 years from now, there will still be bonobo-filled jungles and whales frolicking through the waves.

In my thread Speculation: Horneater Nuatoma have Lift-like magic , Weirywriter awesomely cited WoB that Lift is the only person with a nonstandard method of using stormlight. But there are still two described magic systems on Roshar that don't have an obvious connection to Stormlight: The Nightwatcher, and the Purelakers' consumption of magic fish. So, we have two food-based magics: Lift's Nightwatcher/(Cultivation(?))-mediated use of Stormlight, and the Purelakers' (probably Old Magic- related) consumption of fish. And then we notice that several minor cultures in WoK are unusually devoted to food. Specifically: 1. The Shin grant very high status to farmers (WoK Interlude 6) 2. Among the Unkaaki/Horneaters, first and second sons "make food", third sons are craftsmen, and fourth sons (if any) are soldiers. (WoK chapter 49) 3. All we know of the modern "blue skinned Natans" is that they gave information on chasmfiend hunting-grounds in exchange for "gifts of food". (WoK chapter 36) 4. The Marebethians feed criminals to greatshells, and these greatshells are noted as having "succulent flesh." The Marebethians therefore perform indirect cannibalism. (WoK chapter 40) 5. The Alethi male/female food-taboos are not descended from classical Vorinism, and might come from an Old Magical cultural substrate. Could any or all of these cultures have a group practicing Purelake-like food magic? I've not done a recent re-read of WoR--can anyone who has think of any cultures in that book that pay unusual attention to food, or have particularly strange eating habits? How about any hints that any of the cultures listed above do in fact have non-stormlight-based magic? How likely is it that the chef-scholar-Ardent Ashir is heading towards a major breakthrough in food-magic?

Intantwalrus: Great question. Nan Balat's axehound is a "she". I hadn't thought of that.

Derp. I'm an idiot. Ignore everything I said on this thread.

For scale: it's about 280 miles as the crow flies from the Bhutan border to the Indian ocean, and the band between "29" and "blue" seems to be about 1/6 of that distance, so I'd say it's about 50 miles from seasonal Bhutan to tropical rainforest. Wow, right? And yes, it definitely could be that Hallandren is warmer than it should e, rather than the other way around.

I'd forgotten the 1/5 number! Now we have a way to work from the opposite direction. When Elend met the Terris refugees near the end of WoA, their group had "almost a thousand" members. Unfortunately, there wasn't a number attached when Sazed visited the refugees at the Pits of Hathsin in Hero of Ages. So, if most of the refugees survived the journey to the pits, and if only negligible numbers of other surviving Terrismen trickled in later (either assumption could be challenged), then there were a thousand Terrismen survivors, so there were a total of 5000 originators.

For bronze, there's always gnawing on a sculpture. For tin, there's solder. For zinc, there's galvanc zinc plating. I'm sure you've heard the well-publicised story of the Catholic monastary that supported itself by making galvanized animal figurines. Monks who adhered well to monastic discipline and never broke their vows of silence got to galvanize noble animals like lions and eagles. "Loose lips", however, zinc sheeps. Thanks. I'll be here all week, folks.

A large proportion of the survivors would have been Terrismen, who had been supporting themselves by herding for a number of years. Moreover, agriculture had become Elend's chief domestic/economic preoccupation by the time of WoA: even city skaa had probably taken a turn in the fields. Further, the storehouses didn't just have canned goods: lumber and other items were listed as well. I would certainly think this would be comparable to the inflow of manufacuted goods from wooden sailing ships. Finally, given Sazed's benevolence, and that half of his Investiture is from Preservation, I can certainly see some ruins of the old civilisation having been preserved, providing things like metal plows. It'd be a garden of eden.

One big advantage of having a haploid stage is that it weeds out harmful recessive traits. Since there isn't another gene at the same locus to cover up the bad effects, there are no haploid "carriers" of recessive diseases like cystic fibrosis. So if you just mutated up a diseased gene, a few of your many many skyeel children will die off, but all of your chasmfiend grandchildren will be completely healthy. A second benefit is the same as the benefits of metamorphosis: it allows your population to utilize a wider range of habitats and resources, making you more resilient to any given perterbation. No earth animals have full-on alternation of generations, but male bees, ants, and wasps are haploid. My basic idea was skyeel--->pre-chrysalis chasmfiend--->post-chrysalis chasmfiend--->skyeel, with the transition from skyeel to pre-chrysalis chasmfiend being either metamorphosis or reproduction, and the transition from full chasmfiend to skyeel being reproduction.

Yeah, the more I think about this the stranger it gets. There are some famously-stalled technological advancements in human history: gunpowder in China is an ovious example. But, there you have the fact that there were plausible alternatives to gunpowder in its early development: crossbows were often a better choice than muskets. But Awakening is obviously the best thing going, so that can't be a parallel. One other thing that could have slowed things down, but not enough to explain everything, is the transformation of Breath into a status symbol. The main purpose of having breath was to show other people how awsome and rich you are. If someone with half your breath suddenly figures out how to do something only you should be able to do, then that person is breaking the basis of the status hierarchy, and the gentleman's club is likely to regard him as a cheater and throw him out. And so, people devote all their intellectual energy to getting more breath, rather than figuring out how to use the breath they have. But it seems like there should still have been a few incurably curious people, and a few rebels, to keep things moving along...

Oudeis, here's a map of Indian ecoregions. "29" is true rainforest, and "31" and "32" are pretty close. You can see they are pretty darn close to the blue Himalayan Plateau: 160 miles would be generous. Also, Nepal has had 7 earthquakes with significant fatalities since 1934, but there was a truly devastating quake in 1255 which hasn't been repeated since. So there's definitely no guarantee of a city-toppling quake in recorded Hallandren history, but quakes with hundreds or thousands of deaths should occur several times a century, if it's at all comparable. By the way, thanks for the distance estimate. My random gut-feel had the two places a it closer.

One quick thought: before the manywar, there were probably more people at higher heightenings. In the modern system, you have the God-king with an enormous storehouse of breaths, but no capacity to use it and learn from it. You also have a very large number of people with the First Heightening, which isn't enough to do much of anything. Between these two extremes, there's a pretty small pool of people. Before Peacegiver collected all those breaths, suppose they were distributed among several Awakeners at intermediate Heightenings. They would have been able to learn far more far more quickly than people at the lower heightenings of modern-day Hallandren. It would be like our descendents trying to carry on supercollider particle physics while only being equipped with light-microscopes.

I also agree that a 1% growth rate is too low. You used the world population growth rate, but remember that most of the world was not industrial in the late 1700s. Here, the population was expanding into new lands freshly prepared by a benevelolent god, well-stocked with the Lord Ruler's canned goods, and having the collected wisdom of the ages in the transcripts of Sazeds metalminds. Those are certainly more ideal conditions than were present in colonial America. After adjusting for immigration, colonial america had a natural growth rate (that is, a growth rate from boinkin' rather than immigratin') of about 2.9%. I really can't imagine the Scadrial rate being lower than that. So, if they did have that 2.9% growth rate, the initial population couldn't have been higher than 2,498 people.

derp. ah well. edit: But OOOOOOOO! I just remembered that there is ANOTHER food-based magic system on Roshar: the purelakers and their magic fish! Maybe all Cultivation-linked Old Magic is tied to food. The above WoB only says that Lift is the only nonstandard user of Stormlight, but doesn't say anything about food and Old Magic. Lift is unique because she combines Stormlight and food-magic, but food-magic itself might be ubiquitous. SHAZAM!

Thanks LabRat!

It seems like earthquakes should be as important in Hallandren history as war is, but no historical quake is mentioned. Any ideas on why? Why do I think Hllandren is in a tectonically active area? Well, we know that Idris has four seasons--one of the main impetusses for the marriage is to delay Hallandren troop movements until winter. We also know that Hallandren is surrounded by jungle--not forest, but jungle, with parrots and monkeys. Third, we know that Idris and Hallandren are in easy travelling distance for a largely preindustrial civilisation. On Earth, there are only two places where a jungle is that close to a place with temperate seasons: A thin strip of northern Argentina on the east side of the Andes, and the border between the Himalayan nation of Bhutan and the Indian state of Assam. If you wanted to stretch, you might also include the Xishuangbanna rainforest in southern Yunnan and its quasi-proximity to the edges of the Qinghai Plateau in northern Yunnan. All of these places are enormously tectonically active, suffering some of the world's most severe and deadly quakes. When you're substituting elevation for enough latitude to basically skip the subtropics, you need the tallest mountains Earth can provide, and in general mountains only get that high while they're still growing. So the Idrian mountains must be very tall indeed, and it certainly seems like they should be making quakes or volcanos. Moreover, Hallandren is in an oceanside flatland bordered by mountains. That's the sort of situation that screams that there's a collision of tectonic plates going on: think of the Andes and the Nazca plate, or think of Hallandren as a miniature version of the Indian subcontinent. But there don't seem to be any quakes in Hallandren history. Why? Are Returned sacrificing themselves to heal the land? Do the Pahn Kahl have a secret ritual to ward off quakes? Is Endowment so interested in Hallandren that she is preventing quakes via direct Shardic intervention? Or something else?