FeatherWriter

(Hehe, I'm preeeetty sure Evilnuff was joking. The line about "a stronger case for calling Sadeas a hero than I can for Renarin being sympathetic" is the giveaway. Thus my reaction of smiting.) Wow, I've not been reading these posts closely enough. Though I've disagreed with Aminar in the past, they're right in this regard. Autism isn't something broken, it's a neurotype that is different. Stormlight heals physical issues alone and does not change mental states or attributes. We have canon evidence of this. Kaladin's been surgebinding actively for a book and a half and the Stormlight hasn't done a thing to fix his depression or his seasonal affective disorder. We get plenty of hints that he's still struggling with depression even after getting out of Sadeas's camps and saving Bridge 4. We can see in the Weeping at the end of the book that his SAD is as strong as ever. There is no evidence that Renarin's ASD or his epilepsy would be any different and in fact, there's plenty of evidence to the contrary.

CUTE RENARIN PITCURES. OH NO MY ONE WEAKNESS. HEEEELP.

Yeah, Renarin joining a certain group was a... very good reaction for me. Heh. You probably will need new eardrums...

"Here lies Evilnuff, or at least the tiny charred remains that were all that could be recovered from the scene of the destruction. Let the death of this poor soul serve as a reminder to all who would incur the wrath of Feather by demeaning her darling Renarin. Evilnuff will be mourned."

Daaang those sketches are all so wonderful! Shirtless Kaladin AND lots of uniformèd Bridge 4 members? I can't quite handle all of this amazing! Next you'll start drawing more Renarin or something and then I truly will break. (Also, I feel like I should warn you that I kind of a little bit linked to the picture that you drew for FNCC last night in the Shallan shipping thread, but it didn't really get much response. These silly Sharders just don't appreciate good ship art the way the tumblr fandom does.)

Ah, this thread is making me happy now. People appreciating and empathizing with Renarin. AKA, everything I've ever wanted. I'm glad people are realizing what an amazingly sympathetic character he is. Perhaps my mad ravings are having a positive effect after all this time.

Okay, I can appreciate that. I don't think it's a point to his detriment though. Not everyone has to be a leader or to do things all on their own. I think there's something to be said for wanting a place to belong and working to find it and fit in there.

I can see where you're coming from, but I'd argue that he does take quite a bit of initiative actually. Sometimes it's reactionary: such as trying to help during the chasmfiend attack in WoK, or attempting to shore up the line in the battle as a shardbearer, or joining the duel to protect Adolin - which he did before anyone else. Everyone there knew that two more people could help Adolin out on his side, yet the first person to actually do so was Renarin, without even his Shardplate on to protect him. I think that shows a great level of initiative and bravery. As for an action that he takes on his own without any sort of external prompting, I'll put up his joining Bridge 4. No one asked him to do that and he didn't do it for anything other than himself. And he did this despite the fact that it was incredibly difficult for him, as Kaladin quickly realizes. His social anxiety and nervousness are near crippling, but he forces himself to confront his fears and be strong in order to do what he needs to do. He even leaves behind his stim box--which might have helped his anxiety--so that he can seem more focused. In similar manner at the end of the book, he finally takes the initiative to reveal himself as a Radiant, even though this is even more terrifying than asking to Bridge 4. (Though we do see that Dalinar doesn't realize how difficult this is for him, unlike Kaladin does.)

Thanks guys. I know, we have to be careful over shipping discussions. They take a certain level of extra work to stay civil and respectful than some of the other ones and it means a lot that we are attempting to do so. (I'd argue that the increased risk is worth it, as they're also some of the most fun discussions in my opinion, but they require a level of maturity and mutual respect from participants that, if lacking, can go bad very quickly.)

He did use it in Elantris somewhat, which was... eugh, as I said. I completely agree with what you're saying here. I want that Renarin's magic is disconnected from his autism. He's not magical because he's got autism, he's an autistic person who also has magic. That even though he's not neurotypical, he can still be a hero and can do amazing things. That's the kind of arc we want to see. And again, I like Taravangian's future sight being math and intelligence based because again, there's a magical aspect to it here. Taravangian is not autistic. And his abilities are due to a magical influence, not a divergent neurotype. I also really liked that Taravangian's compassion/intelligence thing was specifically a magical influence thing. Because that's another trope that can be gross sometimes: that intelligent people are cold and evil. I feel like by explicitly making these things magical Brandon is showing and saying that "things are not always this way normally, the magic is what's doing this." And those are good perceptions to break down.

Agreed. This discussion is going bad places and we should call it off. If it absolutely must continue, take it to private chat, please.

Well, Shallarin as a ship isn't fully dependent upon a secret relationship dynamic. That was just a version of it that I wanted to explore. Ships are wonderfully fluid and flexible things. They work through AUs and various situations and there's lots of fun ways to explore things. As for Renarin, I don't think he is really. I mentioned this in the Renarin thread thing, but I think he likes feelng useful more than following orders themselves. Well, the canonicity of a ship is only a part of it's appeal. Something doesn't have to be likely or even plausible to be an enjoyable idea. Kalarin and Shasnah shippers have been going strong for years well aware that that ship is probably not going to happen in canon (though both of them got WAY more cute ship teasings in this book than Shallarin—which was infinitely more likely— did. Shallan's descriptions of Jasnah at the beginning read much differently to a shipper, and the Renarin joins Bridge 4 scene was what finally swayed me over to join the Kalarin-ers once and for all. Speaking of enjoyable ships which are probably not going to be canon, I think ExMachina has the right idea on how to settle this Kaladin versus Adolin debate once and for all. I definitely mentioned that the Kaladin/Adolin dynamic was my favorite in this book. Of course, amazing art like this is only going to make me enjoy it more. ExMachina is a gift, y'all.

The others have kinda said this but... what would you rather have him do? He feels useless and has a desperate need to feel worthwhile and to help. He takes chances to try to prove himself because he has such a need to feel valuable. There's an exchange that he has with Dalinar about this very thing in WoK which takes a turn for the sad very quickly, so I'll just let Renarin speak for himself here: You'd prefer that he just sit back and feel useless as opposed to trying to do something about it? That's not an existence I would wish on anyone. Renarin has so many wonderful talents and is such a wonderful person. He deserves to feel useful and worthwhile and I am so very proud of him for rushing into even dangerous situations to try to find some way to prove himself. Especially when he does so to try to help those he cares about and his family. He wants to help them so much, he wants to make sure they're safe, and he's willing to risk himself in hopes that he might be able to do something to help. I'd say this is possibly a liiiiitle bit of a misconstruction. It's not that Renarin enjoys being ordered around persay, so much as it is the wanting to feel useful. He wants to contribute to the world around him. He wants to be able to do worthwhile things to help out. If someone gives him a task that he can do that is going to be helpful and actually something he can accomplish, he's going to relish that feeling and do it with happiness. Eugh. That seems... really terribly close to the "Autistic savant" cliche. Which is... kind of a gross and problematic trope. I'm almost completely sure Brandon wouldn't put something like that in. It'd be disappointing and in very bad taste, I think.

Yeem. Interesting. (And yes. There are quite a few parts which are VERY amusing after you know what's coming.) Oh naive first-readthrough Feather. You know so little.

I can't begin to convey how excited I am to see real Alethi words. This is incredible.

I'm... technically the theory leader. And I can't quite bring myself to remove it. Like I said, I still think it's got long-term potential in there. The points I've made about it are still valid. Shallan's just not where I thought she was in her arc thus far. Recalculations must be made. I wasn't expecting them to have feelings for each other before meeting, no. That wouldn't make sense.Yeah, actually! It's a different kind of shipping than others might imagine, but in my mind it's one that's rather more fun. Shipping characters who haven't met is like playing matchmaker. It's about compatibility and—in a narrative setting—it's about growth arcs. I'm not going to rehash my Shallarin arguments here, but there was a lot of thought and effort that went into my analysis of their potential... which was partially why it hurt so bad that they started off this way. I know. I know. That's what Brandon said when I brought it up too... (Yes I complained about my being upset o ver Shallarin to Brandon. Yes this was a good use of my time with him. Shut up. I was trying to remember how to breathe at the time.) I'm well aware that I'm biased. Doesn't make it feel any less real though. I'm not saying everyone should think Shallan is awful for what she did. I'm saying I am personally upset with her from a very biased and individualized standpoint. Eh, no different from any other theory! Y'all will extrapolate and pull strings from here to the moon over cosmere theories and other kinds of predictions. Why need shipping be any different? *blinks* *brain breaks* (And I know it was a joke but to be honest, I really don't feel like Renarin's the BDSM type. Shallan... maybe. Renarin, probably not. Mraize on the other hand... *quietly tries to make Mraize/Shallan a thing*)

Whoops. Forgot to mention. Underage. (By a few months yet). Does this mean I lose? Dang. Okay though, for my 21st Birthday: wine tasting with Renarin. My baby's a little wine conoisseur, awwwww. Seriously though, that would be so the best way to spend an afternoon.

You made the horse smirk. You beautiful person, Ex, you MADE THE HORSE SMIRK.

Okay I'm just now finding this thread so I'm going to respond to a bunch of things, sorry. Evidence for Shallarin has always been speculative and based on possible growth arcs and compatibility rather than interaction. That said. They do have a "conversation" in the book. One in which she first calls him "creepy and weird" and then tells the people with her to "Shut him up. Gag him if you must." *seethes and hisses* So, on that note: I know the Splintercast recordings are not anywhere near revealing this part of the book yet, so y'all haven't heard my first-reactions but... I'm... not entirely sure that I'm still a Shallarin shipper. Okay, I mean, I kinda am. The things I've said about their growth arcs and gender role stuff is still valid. But that girl is on thin ice. I was ready to strangle her at the end of the book and at the moment, thinking of Shallan and Renarin together makes me hiss protectively while clutching Renarin, followed by an immediate pain that these were two people that I thought were going to be wonderful and kind to one another. Yeah. Not so much. So, I'm a Shallarin shipper with a disgustingly huge asterisk beside the ship name because Shallan is apparently not as ready for him as I thought she might be. At this point, she doesn't deserve Renarin and she's got some making up to do before I'm willing to trust her around him without my hackles raising and getting ready to snatch him away. Until then, I am going to enjoy all kinds of cute imaginings of him with Bridge 4 and adorable, fluffy, protective Kaladin/Renarin scenes. The Kalarin shippers have welcomed me with open arms already, though I don't go nearly as far as most of them do with the ship. Natans it's really cute how you think the ship wars have only now officially begun. Shallarin, Kalarin, and Shasnah have been trading blows for almost a year now. Haha. Speaking of. No Jasnah on this poll? I mean, I'm not personally a Shasnah shipper (obviously), but it's got a pretty huge following! Shallarin and Shasnah were the two main Shallan ships before WoR dropped! I went ahead and hid those spoilers for you, but in the future, you can type: [ spoiler] PUT YOUR SPOILERS IN HERE [ /spoiler] without the spaces in the brackets to hide them. Anyway, to respond to that line of thought, I'll have to talk about Mistborn spoilers too, so Contrast that with Shallan and Kaladin, who have long major narrative arcs completely independent of each other for a book and a half. And they don't start getting ship teased until Part 4. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I don't like this ship. it's dreadfully obvious. Main male character and main female character who do their own thing for books on books and then all of a sudden they meet and "feelings are happening." I really hope it ends up subverted or inverted or something because otherwise, it's going to feel disappointing. I just can't appreciate them as a couple at all. In addition to this, (aside from the Kalarin cutes that I ended up latching onto because BRAIZE IT, I'M GOING TO FIND SOMETHING RENARIN-RELATIONSHIP RELATED TO ENJOY IN THIS BOOK), Kadolin was my fave relationship in this book. It was perfect. And I couldn't have asked for a better progression or development of their interactions. Bickery rivals to bickery best friends was absolutely stunning and I adored every moment of it. Seriously, those of you listening to Splintercast be prepared to hear me cackle madly over everything Kaladin and Adolin do with each other because it was spot on and hilarious and wonderful. And the idea of them on opposite sides of a love triangle with Shallan in the middle is just... euuuuuuuugh no. Do not destroy my one perfect relationship in this book over girl rivalry please. I'm mostly joking, but let's just have Adolin and Kaladin find out that she said we should GAG RENARIN and she goes and sits in the corner and thinks about what she's done until she's ready to apologize. Then we'll see about getting her a love interest. I will say that if she ameliorates her behavior, choosing Renarin would be a satisfactory way for this little triangle to get solved. "You have options A and B." "Okay, I'm taking C." That's always a fun way to solve issues, whether they be romance related or not. Who knows, perhaps her initial dislike and rudeness toward Renarin is setting up a growth thing to come. Maybe. I'm still not entirely sure I want her around him, even if she does get better. I'm slightly more okay with Shadolin than Shalladin I guess, but I'm still not a huge fan of that one either. Let's be honest, I was disappointed ship-wise with this book majorly and I'm still nursing my wounds. It wasn't a writing issue so much as a personal one. I'm not saying the ending was bad - far from it! - but it was one that hurt me a lot and deeply upset me and I'm still not over it. It's hard to appreciate the cute scenes or merits of another ship after getting kicked in the teeth over something you spent years pouring time and effort into caring about and creating things for. Which means... I'm probably not voting for the moment. Maybe I'll bring myself to be able to click Renarin in a few months but for the moment thinking of her being around Renarin makes my vision go red and I feel the urge to flip a table. At her. (Oh hey though. This just occured to me... Other characters she's had significant interaction with with overtones of flirtiness and mutual respect? Who wants to start the Shallan/Mraize ship with me, hm? He even knows who she actually is now. That's a fun dynamic to think about and play with, and I have the most wonderful villian crush on Mraize already... He's even got a deliciously sinister little pet name for her, "little knife.")

Constant, inexplicable, disembodied screaming is more traumatizing than an accusation of something he didn't do? Not to mention, if we're saying that a surgebinder hears screams when they touch a blade and the bonded person hears accusations of murder... Renarin would possibly hear both. And again. He experienced it for days on end. Whereas Kaladin and the duelist only got a tiny little moment. So yeah, I'm gonna argue that on the "traumatic experience involving screaming Shardblades" scale of 1-10, Kaladin and the Duelist are at like a 3 and Renarin's sitting over around 600.

Well then. That's cool!

Oh I know. And its a wonderful argument. But it was also painful to think about. (Not that that's hard to do with me when Renarin's involved.)

See... That one probably goes to Hoid/Renarin. Which is an actual thing that my friend Fruity ships. I mean, on one hand like... it's completely ridiculous and could never happen and I just sorta shake my head at her.... But the scenes between them in WoK are overwhelmingly adorable and sweet and are pretty much my favorites.

Hehehe. Yes, I was joking. Though really, once you've seen Vin/Human crack shipping everything else just starts to look normal.

Well, there's a difference between seeing the past and seeing the future. In fact, I think someone specifically tells Dalinar "You see the past, that is not forbidden" at one point during WoK. In fact, hearing things like that: "Oh it's okay that Dalinar is having visions because they're not the future. If he were seeing the future that would be awful and terrible"? That's probably going to make Renarin even less likely to tell people. Glad I could convince you about his courage. Like I said. I need more peple appreciating Renarin! Oh thanks. I didn't need my heart anyway. That's nice. I was just compaining that I wasn't upset enough about Renarin.