FeatherWriter

Oh hey, maybe I should be on the forums more often, there's fellow FFXIV fans out here! I admit, I spend more time than I probably should in the FFXIV thread on our 17S discord (we've got a good crew over there, and some lovely sprouts playing through for the first time) but I love this game to bits, I think it's got some absolutely amazing storytelling and Ishikawa is a cruel and wonderful writing genius. Love the story, love the gameplay, love the community. Spend far too many of my waking hours hunting down streamers doing first time MSQ playthroughs so that I can feed off their reactions like an emotional vampire (the true endgame of XIV, of course).

I've got a couple of viera that I play, because viera are the best, hands down, I love all bnuuys deeply and with my whole heart and soul. I hard main red mage because I think it's got an awesome aesthetic, great raid utility, and a very snappy build-and-spend cycle to its rotation, big fan. I do also dabble in Dancer and Sage on occasion though.

Props to @Zurvanite for keeping this topic going for so long, fighting the good fight! If anybody's on Crystal, we've got a CWLS set up for a few of the 17S folks to keep in touch though it doesn't see a huge amount of use on a day to day basis.

In conclusion: bnnuuuuyyyyyyy.

That is all.

@Wittless If you're curious about the experiences of plural readers and how they read Shallan and her role as representation, there's a few good threads discussing this already. The Winter System started one here that had some good responses on this topic: 

I am singlet (not-plural) myself, but will say I think you are getting some more brusque responses because some of the things you've said regarding the story and plurality are close to some of the more harmful ideas about it, even though I assume that was not your intent. Things like saying that you find this weird or uncomfortable, or that it's "an issue that needs to be dealt with" or that plurality is "dangerous" are harmful stereotypes, and the people who are affected by these things are understandably upset. 

One of the criticisms in that thread of Shallan's arc was that it ended in integration, and while some systems see integration as a goal, others prefer to find stability amongst themselves, and having Shallan persist as a stable system in a loving relationship would have been very good positive representation for plurality. I found that very interesting, as it wasn't something I'd thought about, as a singlet, but I could see the point that was made in that, it made sense. There's plenty of cheap horror portrayals of plurality where "gasp, a 'normal' person some of the time, and a crazy murderer others! how frightening and terrible!" but there's plenty of actual plural systems out there living their lives as normal people and when their only representation is as a horror monster, well... obviously that's a pretty bad thing. 

Anyway, I'd encourage you to read that thread, and some of the others that are around on this topic, and also just read online about the experiences of real plural systems if you want to know more. I'd encourage you to be careful about the way you phrase things and remember that there are real people out there with similar experiences to Shallan's when you talk and ask about her storyline. That's good advice anywhere, but it's especially important for things like this. 

I hope that helps!

44 minutes ago, the_archduke said:

Shallan is happily married to Adolin.  She internally comments on how much she enjoys her marital activities with Adolin.  She specifically has told Adolin that, regardless of how Veil may talk or act, the Three have set a line that will not be crossed when it comes to intimacy with anyone other than him.  Her only other romatic attractions have been with Kabsal (male) and Kaladin (also male).

So, notwithstanding how Veil may talk or act, what evidence is there that Shallan is anything other than happily heterosexual?

As Shallan has said (of Veil and Radiant) she might occasionally be them, but they are not her.

 

-edit- Additional though I just had.

Could Veil's ogling of women be a choice for Adolin's benefit?  Adolin was understandably upset when Veil was mooning over Kaladin.  If Veil is no longer interested in men, could that be a subconscious effort to reassure her husband that she wouldn't consort with any other man?

I mean, the original speculation regarding Shallan being bi was because there were a lot of interactions and descriptions in WoK with Jasnah that easily read as Shallan having a crush. In all honesty, Shallan doesn't really ever express attraction to Kabsal, it's just that he expresses attraction toward her, which she finds both flattering and a bit frightening.

I think, as we said, that probably wasn't Brandon's original intent, but hey authorial intent changes! And when Silver sent that tweet, Brandon acknowledged that the reading was valid and now, it seems, is moving to make that reading more explicitly canon. The bi Shallan reading started long before Veil even existed.

Sure, Veil has an easier time talking about finding people attractive or flirting because she's a darkeyed, streetwise con woman. She's rough and tumble, she drinks Horneater white, she asks salacious questions about the pretty girl across the bar. Shallan the lighteyed Highprincess, as a person, is far less likely to say things like that in a public setting. She's got to be a little more reserved and refined, because that's who she is.

But it doesn't change the fact that it was Shallan who was always all flustered about how gorgeous and perfect and well-endowed her mentor in Kharbranth was. The one who said that Jasnah "opened a box of storms in [her]" and all that. 

I will say, I really like that Shallan and Veil seem to have the kind of relationship with Adolin where they talk about former crushes or who they find attractive. Even in a light, teasing sort of way to make Adolin blush about his old girlfriends. I think it's much healthier for a relationship to be able to discuss things like that rather than acting like monogamy means you're never allowed to find anyone else attractive for the rest of your life. 

I think Lady said it very well, but yeah I definitely think an over-reliance on what is explicitly canon hinders the experience. Canon is the basis, it tells us who these characters are, what they value, what they want. But I as a reader and a fandom member get to take that canon and build on it, explore it in my own ways. Shipping is about dynamics, chemistry, charisma. Regardless of whether or not I think Brandon's going to write these characters being in a relationship together in the books, do I as a reader see them as compatible? Kaladin and Adolin have great chemistry, they're opposites in many ways that fit together nicely, but they're also just very supportive of each other and care about each other. Sure, plenty of people are never going to read anything deeper into their on-screen interactions, but for those of us who resonate with that dynamic, those canon moments feel more special. 

Shipping is something that gets written off by a lot of communities as something silly, it's just for people who want to see characters kiss each other, or be sexy or whatever. But shipping done well is character appreciation. It's learning to explore characters in such a deep way that you start to extrapolate that character's bonds with others. Like mixing two shades of paint to see what new color results. How could these characters make each other better? How can they make each other's problems worse? What are their strengths, flaws, wishes, and how do those things interact with the other person's strengths, flaws, wishes? What would happen if they were in a different setting? What would happen if they'd met in a different way? Who are they in relation to themselves, and who are they in relation to the other person? Thinking about these sorts of extrapolations as separate or divorced from canon isn't really accurate, rather I would say they help you understand the characters in their canon state better. 

If we think of canon as moving in a clean line in one direction, theorizing is trying to guess where that line is going next. If it's not on the line or not going to be on the line, the theorizing side doesn't care. Shipping and other creative fandom endeavors is more like exploring all the other angles the line could have taken, filling in the empty spaces around. We appreciate canon more deeply because we can keep coming back to it as a starting place, playing with its implications, using Brandon's story and set-up as the clay to sculpt whatever we want to see. 

I am driven by characters in the books, it's why I read cosmere. Realmatic theory, WoBs, those aren't what get me excited about reading Brandon's books. It's his rich characters, who are people I like and people I'm interested in reading about. I want to dig into the motivations and struggles and all that nitty gritty of what makes each character themselves, and how that drives them through the plot. There's plenty of fans who don't think this way, who are fine sticking to the line Brandon gives and taking the books and characters at face value and being satisfied with that. But for those of us who love the story and character's potential to be more, who show our love of the cosmere by exploring possibilities rather than staying fixed on the set canon, well... most of us end up as shippers. 

I hope that maybe helps clarify some of the mindset? It really saddens me that 17s doesn't really have the same rich shipping communities that I've loved in other fandoms or other cosmere groups. I think the more people are used to the idea of shipping and speculative creativity as an expression of fandom and the way those conversations can be valuable and engaging—even if they don't really get into those discussions themselves—I think the 17s fandom side would be a richer, more interesting place.

Sorry OP, but unfortunately, I cannot be the Shalladin friend you search for. Shalladin is a hard nOTP for me, and I was very relieved at the end of OB when they decided they weren't right for each other. That topic's been talked to death and I feel like it's rude to talk about why you don't like someone else's ship to them, so I won't go into all the reasons I didn't like it, but I definitely felt like the story had dodged a bullet when she chose Adolin at the end.

In terms of my own Stormlight ships, Kadolin is waaaaay up there. Kaladin and Adolin have such a magnetic, addictive chemistry and it feels like their relationship has just grown stronger and stronger as the books progress. Is it going to be canon? Probably not. But it's amazing regardless. The only correct solution to the "love triangle" is with Adolin in the middle, if you ask me, ha.

A diagram, for reference:

Shadolin is... fine, I guess? It's better than Shalladin for me but also I don't really get excited about it. Probably wouldn't ever really make content for them. In terms of canon ships, it's decent. No complaints, at least.

After Kadolin, Kalarin (Kaladin/Renarin) would probably be my next favorite ship. Much as I love Kadolin, I've probably written more stuff for Kalarin, though I blame the fact that I hung out with lots of Kalarin shippers for a while and they rubbed off on me. It's just such a different dynamic. Kadolin has that great rivals-to-lovers, bonded-in-combat-together kind of vibe, and Adolin is just so good at looking out for Kaladin's mental health too; but every so often you just want a ship that's fluffy and gentle, and that's Kalarin all the way. The scene where Renarin works up the courage to ask to join Bridge Four and Kaladin just... immediately understands how hard it was for him, and how much he just really needs a place to belong, ohh my heart just melts. I have a reputation around the fandom for Renarin being my favorite character of all time and I just get teary when people are nice to him and think he's a valuable person, and Kaladin was so great about that.

I have written some things for Shasnah, though those were more for friends than necessarily it being my own ship. Personally, I think Jasnah is definitely Shallan's type (and that she absolutely had a baby bi crush on Jasnah in WoK), but Shallan doesn't really strike me as Jasnah's type. For Jasnah ships, I feel like Khriss would be my pick for her. Two fierce, noble scholar ladies discovering the secrets of the Cosmere together, who wouldn't want that?

Finally, my terrible, dumpster-fire unhealthy ship: Mraize/Veil. I absolutely love a good charismatic, manipulative villain, and I especially love it when two very smart characters are trying to outwit and outplay one another from behind the guise of sharp smiles and paper-thin politeness. Tack onto it that Mraize is very well-dressed and well-spoken and he's absolutely my villain-crush type. The strength of emotions between enmity and attraction, the intimacy of trying to get inside your opponent's head, the manipulative mix of wanting the approval of someone you're trying to beat in a very dangerous game, its all just *chef kiss.* It's definitely not the kind of ship for everyone but it hits all the shipping buttons I love. 

I am SCREAMING, this is everything I pictured. I love the excerpts from the logbook too, like mmmm yes. A+, 10/10, S-tier fanfic. Long live Rashendi.

Funnily enough, despite having never played Halo, my mental picture for shardblades was that they were ethereal and translucent like the energy swords from Halo. I was quite confused when I started my first reread of WoK and finally noticed the description that they were metal.

Also @The Deity wooo fellow Guardian. I definitely have a post floating around about how Destiny and Stormlight are actually really similar!

Hey Lerasium, 

I don't want to sound like another person disagreeing, but I think I might have an idea of where your interpretation has differed from most other people's in regards to that WoB. It seems like you had a different intention with your question than you actually asked. I think you were hoping to ask something on the verge of: What is Dalinar's role in all future Stormlight books? When Brandon only talked about 4 & 5, you took that as confirmation that Dalinar would not appear in any other books. 

However, Brandon was not trying to answer that question. When he answered you, he was only talking about Dalinars immediate future.

He very intentionally only told you about the next two books, no further. That's what Brandon's second message is trying to make clear: Whether Dalinar is in the back five or not, Brandon is not revealing anything. Dalinar could be in every chapter in the back five, or he could be in none of them, and Brandon's answer would be the same. That's what he's trying to convey. This is why he said he's "very, very intentionally not saying anything about any of the characters after book five."

Now as you mentioned, we've seen with Lift that he's let a few things slip here and there, like you pointed out, but I think he is trying to be very careful now to not let anything else slip out. And you may have other reasons for thinking Dalinar will die (it's a possibility, sure!) but I think what people are trying to show you is that this WoB shouldn't be taken as proof that Dalinar only has two books left. That's not what Brandon is saying to you in this WoB at all. And that's why Brandon himself told you you were "reading a lot more into [his] reply than what [he] said." 

That's Brandon's way of saying that him not talking about Dalinar in the back five is not mean Dalinar can't be in them. Brandon's saying it could be either way, he won't confirm.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

So you stated that it is meaningful to each Radiant in a different way and that potentially Kaladin could live it one way that could view Adolin's actions as violating it, while an elsecaller could live it a different way and view Adolin's actions as not violating it. Genuine question, do you feel if hypothetically Adolin's actions violate the first oath in the way Lift (an edgedancer) lives it, would that preclude him from becoming an edgedancer? Or could another edgedancer potentially live the first oath a different way from Lift, so then that view on the first oath wouldn't be violated by Adolin's actions?

I don't really have a dog in the race on Adolin becoming a Radiant or not. If it happens, cool, if not, cool. But in terms of the oath interpretation, I don't even necessarily think it's something that would come down to an Order's interpretation. I think it really might just be between the Radiant and their spren. I think the higher spren really are more individual than that. Sure, within an Order, you're going to share some ideology and ways of thinking, but beyond broad strokes, I bet each Honorspren has their own idea of what it means to be a Windrunner and each Cultivationspren has their own idea what it means to be an Edgedancer, so on and so forth. It's hard to know for sure right now, because we haven't really gotten to interact with multiple spren from within the same order, but I think we'll definitely see more of it come Book 4, from the Windrunners certainly, but hopefully from some other Orders too.

Fun story about "hell" as a filtered word. It used to be in the filter, and then Brandon published "Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell" and we can't very well filter a word that's in the title of one of the books...

14 minutes ago, Kaymyth said:

This has been addressed before, but I would like to reiterate - the biggest problem with the ASK thread is that it was too general. It was a mishmash of a ton of different things, and it got extremely intimidating very quickly. Over the past several months, we've had numerous reports, PMs, and comments over Discord about it. I personally have seen several people say, "I really want to talk about this stuff, but that thread scares me." When you have a multitude of people stating that they're afraid of a thread, then we have to take a hard look and consider taking action.

We encourage you all to open up new discussion threads on a tighter focus. Please. We don't want to shut down discussion, but find ways to make it more accessible to everyone.

Of course, if someone starts an actual shipping thread, then I'm going to have to start spouting my nonsense somewhere other than Discord. Imagine, the entire Shard rolling their eyes at the crazy unicorn lady whose solution to every love triangle is to throw polyamory at it. Yessss, my darlings, LOVE IS EVERYWHERE!

I've made a point of bringing this up in Discord a few times, but I am also a lover of character-based and relationship-focused discussions. The A-S-K thread wasn't a sterling example of what shipping threads can be, but I know this is something that 17S' culture has had issues with in the past. There's nothing more fun to me than having a chill, friendly conversation about characters and ships and plots and narrative arcs and stuff like that. Unfortunately, 17S hasn't been home to most of those discussions. They've happened elsewhere. But I think it'd be great if they happened here too.

I've had too many fandom friends say they don't feel like 17S is a place for people like them, the shippers, the character experts, the fanfic writers, the artists, the AU people. They get intimidated and think you've got to be a Realmatics expert and know at least 200 WoBs of the top of your head to post here, and I don't want that to be true. It's great that we have experts who really know the nitty-gritty of the cosmere in and out, and I think they're amazing resources for this site. But no one should feel like those are the only people who are welcome.

One of the things that both saddens and encourages me about what's happened with A-S-K is hearing how many people seem to be really wanting those kind of discussions too. I hear it both from people who were active and supportive of the thread, who feel sad that it's gone, because it felt like it was the one place they could talk about these kinds of things. And I hear it from people from people who really wanted a place to talk about those kinds of things, but didn't want to jump into A-S-K for whatever reason, and felt like they were stuck and had no other places to go.

That thread, for better or worse, agree or disagree, is done with for now. But I like this idea that maybe we'll get some new character-focused threads in the future and we can all have those cool, fun character or ship talks that apparently, a bunch of us have been wanting threads like that. I say, let's do it. It's silly for us to all sit around wishing someone else wanted to talk about this stuff. Let's just go for it instead of wishing!

13 minutes ago, Kaymyth said:

 

Quote

Now the mods are going to freak out, but I kind of wish the downvotes were back... 

 

Who are you, and what have you done with maxal?

I don't know what they've done with her, Kay, but I'm scared. Who is this new person????

4 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I wasn't present for this event so I don't have first hand experience of it, but simply from your own words this seems very flawed. A member came into a thread and proceeded to break the rules. Was she put on moderation? Was she banned? We have no idea that any real discipline was carried out and she wasn't publically shamed like a new member would have been in the same circumstance. And why did this happen? According to you it is because she is your friend. You just had a chat.

How is this ok?

This proves that there is bias again. Indeed, it is even worse than I thought! Why wasn't a post made by a moderator at least acknowledging this - can it not be seen that this has the effect of making people feel like as long as you know the mods, you're golden?

54 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Yes, you can contact RandomUse096; it's called sending them a PM.  I don't get this argument at all.  You have a way to privately address any member of the 17th Shard through PM.  Yes, they may respond poorly (your next point), but that seems to be a hazard of moderation.  If someone responds poorly, then you can take other steps.  There isn't actual risk in this situation, it's not like deciding to go to your friend's house to discuss a situation versus going to a stranger's house; you have total authority to moderate a user, ban a user, delete their posts, modify their posts.  Shouldn't the exact way you dealt with your friend be the way you deal with all posters?

I think my post was perhaps, a little unclear. This is not to say that we never moderate through PMs. As I said, we do! For many people and for many reasons. A lot of moderation happens privately rather than publicly, but, since it's not open for everyone to see, obviously people don't know about those cases. This just happened to be one that people noticed happened "off-screen" so to speak.

My point in talking about that experience wasn't to say that "my friend got private talks while strangers get public ones" because that's just not the case. I meant to say that in that case, because I know my friend well and we talk frequently, we were able to accomplish the moderation with a chill and friendly chat, because I knew she'd understand and listen even before I spoke to her. That's just not a luxury that we get with random users who we don't know. I have to tread more carefully when moderating people I don't know well because they don't know me and I don't know them. The kind of PM that I'd send to a user like that would be more calm, professional, and explanatory than the casual chat I can have with a friend where I can just swoop in and go "yo, fren, u went too far there, fix it."

If the person who gets a PM is a brand new user, I tend to be gentler, because I don't want their first experience on the Shard to be a scolding from authorities. More than likely with newbies, they just don't have a handle on the rules yet and some encouragement in the right direction is all it takes. If it's someone who's been around for a while and should know better, I can be a little stricter. There's not a "boilerplate" response for when something's wrong. The kind of response that I send as a moderator changes based on the person I'm talking to and the situation at hand.

I think perhaps the root of the issue is that while there's clear rules in place, there aren't necessarily delineated punishments for breaking them. Getting moderated on 17S isn't like getting a speeding ticket where it's "pay this amount if your 10mph over, pay this much if it was 25." There's not a chart somewhere that says doing this will get you a PM, or this will be a public warning, or this will get you mod queued, or this will get you banned. Dealing with situations is done on a case-by-case basis, and usually collectively. When a problem post is brought to our attention, the staff often talks together about how to handle it. Should it be deleted, or edited, or should one of us post a warning, or should that person be mod queued? It depends on a lot of factors. Has this person been trouble before? Are there multiple reports about this post, or is it just one person who might be overreacting a bit? Is this somewhere where making a statement about what's happening will help solve it best, or is it better to pull the person aside in private and see if they'll fix it quietly? Are there other people involved who also need to be seen to? Should they get PMs as well, or is it a problem that will shape up if just the main offender shapes up?

Personally, I think that flexibility helps the staff respond to problems more efficiently than a more rigid system would. It gives us the chance to use our discretion and take extenuating circumstances into account while we're sorting through what are usually tense situations with high emotions. Because of that, we can handle them in the way we think is going to get things settled rather than making it worse. I think there's some situations where there just isn't a great answer that's not going to upset people, so you pick the one that upsets the fewest, or the one that's going to be better for the site overall. And in those cases, when the backlash rolls in, you push up your sleeves and try to mediate and settle that too. 

Like I said before, I'm sure we pick wrong sometimes. There's probably times where another method might have been more effective or better. But that can't always be helped. Conflicts are messy, no matter what, and that unpredictability of not knowing how people are going to respond to the things we do means often, we've got to take our best guess and go with it.

Maybe that staff-discretion method needs to be reconsidered. Personally, I think it's efficient and the wisest course of action, but if a majority of our users find it unfair or feel like the staff are attacking them for no reason, then that's something we need to consider. From what I've seen, I don't think that's the case. I think a lot of people are mostly okay with staff making decisions in how to handle things as they arise, but maybe I'm wrong about that. That's part of what discussions like this are for.

17 minutes ago, Calderis said:

There's more than just moderation issues here too. We also tend to avoid confrontation and try and use the mods as intermediaries. 

I mean... @Chaos is the only person I know of who has ever spoken to me about the content of my posts. And on the occasions that that's happened, I wasn't aware that it was because of a report. No poster that I'm aware of has ever told me publicly or privately that one of my posts was out of line. I've either come to that conclusion myself, and added an edit to clarify, on rarer occasions realized I should have just shut up and chose to use the "hide post feature." Or on a few occasions, I've been dealt with by Chaos personally. Theres never been a step between self-moderation and Mod intervention, and frankly I think that's part of the issue. 

I know that I can be fairly abrasive at times, and it is by no means intentional. My self-moderation is much more strict than it used to be after a couple of incidents that I have been involved in that in retrospect were completely my fault. You learn from things and try to do better. 

If something I say offends, feel free to send me a message. I guarantee it's not intentional. 

I think some of it comes back to that grab-bag of reactions idea. There's nothing wrong with members talking out their disagreements themselves in private, but I don't think very many do. A random user who disagrees with you might be worried that you'd blow up at them if they tried to say something privately. Conflict resolution's hard and scary. I understand why a lot of people prefer to just ping staff with a report and let a moderator deal with it. It's a little easier for us to talk to people because we've got some authority and well... mucking through the unfun parts of conflict resolution is part of our job. We have to deal with it, but members have the choice of whether they want to handle it themselves or take it up the chain of command.

2 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

For instance, a moderator once brought in a friend as an "attack dog" to the shipping thread (the poster stated they were there to provide snarky comments), the moderator's friend got extremely heated and was reported.  The moderator team on some level must have agreed on the offensiveness of the post, as it was deleted and then reinstated with revisions.  No public chastisement was given.  This is not an anomaly; it's been quite clear that biased treatment is to be expected.

Hey Dream, as the moderator in question, I'd like to give a little more insight into what happened there. I assume you're talking about Kogiopsis' brief foray into the Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin thread? Your retelling of events is fairly accurate, but I'd like to explain a bit of what happened behind the scenes. Yes, Kogi's a close personal friend of mine, has been for years.

She's long disliked some of the culture of discussions on 17S and, for the most part, avoids them. She has an aggressive personality, and it tends to come out strongly when she is engaged in a heated discussion, and she knows that a lot of times, that kind of argument is against the rules on 17S. The mix of 17S conversations making her blood pressure rise combined with the fact that she hits too hard when she's annoyed means that she stays away for the most part.

I didn't summon her as an attack dog or ask her to contribute. Frankly, I was downright shocked to see that she'd logged in here. We've got group chats on skype with other Cosmere fandom members, and some of us are on 17S and had been talking about our discussions in ASK, so she knew about the thread. But I certainly wasn't expecting her to go weigh in with her take on the matter.

She went too far, got carried away and her tone strayed into a territory that broke the rules. The moderation staff discussed it, agreed that the tone was too far, the post was hidden. I talked to her privately about it, and she said she had a pretty good idea of where she'd crossed the line and so, after editing the offending part out, the post was reinstated. 

Now, I think you have a point about public chastisement in a way. There wasn't a call-out for Kogi in the thread for that event, but I think that has more to do with the fact that it was an issue that could be handled and fixed privately. And it's not just personal friends of staff who get that treatment. There's plenty of times where staff send private messages to members to try to fix posts or steer a conversation away if it looks like it's getting toxic. It doesn't always have to do with bias or relationship. Sometimes the person isn't too far out of line and just needs a staff nudge. Sometimes a public condemnation would throw an otherwise productive topic off-course and we don't want to interrupt for a staff announcement.

Public moderation has its place too though. In some cases, it can be good for other members to see what kind of behavior is out of line so that they can not make the same mistakes in the future. A lot of times, conflicts in threads aren't the fault of one single person, but rather a group of people getting heated and taking things too far, in which case, it's easier to just sit them all down right there in the thread and ask them to cool off. It depends on the situation, again.

In Kogi's case, I knew why she'd gone too far and I knew, as her friend, that she'd fix it when asked without throwing a fit. And yes, that is a benefit of being friends with someone, that you know them and it's easier to deal with stuff like that because you've got a previous relationship. I can't hit up RandomUser096 on Skype and say "hey buddy, I think you know where that went wrong, but I know you'll fix it because we're cool" sort of thing.

Most of the users here are strangers here, and that means I can't just saunter into their PMs here and know for certain they'll be reasonable. There's plenty of members who blow up and try to make things worse when a moderator steps in. There's some who will shout that you're being jerks to them specifically, peppered with swear words, and throw tantrums. But there's plenty of people who apologize and are fine. Sometimes it's a misunderstanding, and the person didn't realize how their post really came across. But when you don't know the person, it's a grab bag which one it's going to be. And odds are, when the person has already gone too far and broken the rules, there's a higher chance that they're going to be the furiously angry former type than the reasonable and apologetic latter type.

Maybe we, as staff, didn't handle that situation in the best way. Maybe we did. We did our best at the time to be fair about it. I'm sure there's other situations we could have handled better too, just as there's situations that were handled smoothly enough that other users never even knew about them. The staff are human. We make mistakes and we have biases on moderation things just as we have regular opinions on book things. We do try hard not to let those biases affect our moderation, but I'm sure it happens sometimes anyway, despite our intentions otherwise. 

I think I speak for the staff when we say that we don't want the moderation team to be some dangerous, shadowy cabal that might swoop down out of nowhere and execute you in broad daylight, or send assassins in the night to murder you if you don't fall in line with our nefarious agenda. We're just fans, like you guys, who joined this site because we love Brandon's books and love talking about them with other fans. We've just got... a little more say in sorting things out when things start to go wrong.

I think maybe a thread like this is a good thing. I think it could be productive to talk about how moderation works on the site and maybe we as staff members can learn how to improve some things too. Like I said, we're not perfect. But we're trying our best. Maybe, after talking it all through, we can get even better.

Hello! I am very much a Renarin fan. I am here for all your Renarin-love related needs. Welcome to the Shard!

31 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

Your thoughts, Feather?

My thoughts are that I'm just... tired of the discussion for the most part. I think there is a hang up here in this thread on objective truth, and it's an issue I've seen in other threads on the Shard too. Romance, characters, plots, and enjoyment thereof are so so so so deeply opinionated that trying to argue down to tacks over who's "right" just seems like an exercise in futility. You didn't like the plotline. I did. We can... just accept that those two realities are both true without one of us needing to be right or wrong about it. Just because a plot didn't work for you does not necessarily mean that it's flawed or worthless. Just because it's not the way you would have done it doesn't mean that it's objectively and unquestionably bad. Just because I thought it was great doesn't mean that everyone's going to see it that way.

See: The Last Jedi. No spoilers here, but I loved it. Probs one of my fave Star Wars movies of all time. One of my dear friends hated it and thought it was horrible storytelling, a disgusting mockery of a beloved franchise. We both talked about our thoughts and then we continued to be friends and it was fine. I didn't convince her that TLJ was a shining bastion that reworked a familiar narrative that needed refreshing and she didn't convince me that the plot was full of inexcusable holes and worthless storytelling decisions.

Same thing here. I'm not going to convince you that Shallan and Adolin are a good pairing and that Oathbringer showed this well. You're not going to convince me that it didn't. That's fine. What works for me might not work for you. I don't love everything Brandon does in his books, but I really loved this. You and many of the other upstanding Sharders in this thread didn't. That's cool. 

I'm not going to be able to explain to you why the plot worked for me because it didn't work for you. These threads are cool when we get a difference of opinion and people get to say "I didn't read it that way, but it's interesting that you do" or "Oh, I hadn't thought of that angle, that changes my perspective." But when it's all about convincing the other side that you're right and they're wrong, it just gets onerous. 

At least for me. Maybe other people really like that kind of discussion and they are welcome to it. But I'm good without it. Back in the golden days of WoK-only SA fandom, my closest friends were my shipping rivals. I didn't like Kalarin that much and they didn't like Shallarin. We still had great talks and fun amusing fake rivalries. Now we've both written things for our "former enemy ship" and we're still besties. Heck, at this point, I've probably written more fic for Kalarin than I ever wrote for Shallarin. Life's funny like that. 

I think Adolin and Shallan are cute and supportive and work well together. I don't need Adolin to say outright, in his POV, how much he loves Shallan for me to be satisfied that he does. He's always been a character that is more externally read than internally. I think the book has adequate representation of Shallan and Adolin not only as a healthy couple but a couple who are truly attracted to one another. I think Shallan and Kaladin were a good example of mistaken physical attraction for romantic, and were an excellent subversion of typical romance narratives. 

If you disagree, that's fine. But if y'all want to keep saying that because you disagree, it's because Brandon Sanderson is objectively and factually a bad writer who screwed it up and made a huge mistake, then... well I guess that's fine too, but it's not a conversation I'm really interested in pursuing. Weirdly enough, I'm not overly enthused about participating in conversations in which things I like are stated to be "unquestionably bad because it's not an opinion it's the truth and if you can't see that then you should convince me you're correct or concede that I am correct instead."

Nah. I got better things to do. Live your life, think your thoughts, ship your ships. I know I'm going to.

I mean, at this point, I'm aware of y'all's views on the matter and I've stated mine in long enough form as well. I'd just be repeating myself if I actually fell back into the Shaladin vs Shadolin debate, so I won't do so. I disagree with the interpretations regarding Shallan's personalities and what it means for Adolin vs what it means for Kaladin. I thought the choosing scene hit all the points it needed to and satisfactorily wrapped up this plot thread for the moment. Y'all didn't think that. That's all there is to it.

2 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Wow, this discussion (chastisement?) turns into love of gay romance and I barely have time to respond!  If anyone has the talent to write a suitably smutty Kadolin fan fic please send it my wayyyyyy. I’ve found some cute ones, but nothing which really, um, gets down to it enough.

@Kogiopsis if you’ve got any good fanfic for Kalarin I’d love those recs too. I don’t see Renarin as the most sexual of characters, but I think post-OB there’s more to go on. (No touching! Oh touching...)

There has been nothing which has disappointed me more in SA then when after reading WoR I found out Brandon’s religious views and read the WoBs about no gay viewpoint characters. Kadolin is the best developed romance for me (but I’m highly, highly biased.) It’ll sadly never happen, but damnation we got a lotttttt to “ponder” in OB. Holy storms, Adolin’s “he’d never button that coat over his broad chest” line is straight out of a romance novel.

But on the actual subject, as I think everyone knows, I agree with @DeployParachute that my heart ship (Kadolin) is totally seperate from where I think Brandon is heading with this. 

Both Kogi and I have written quite a bit of Kalarin, and there's others who have as well. AO3 lists 28 Kalarin fics. A large chunk of them either written to Kogi or gifted to her. (I wasn't kidding about her being the captain.) Personally I'm quite fond of this one of Kogi's, which was written before WoR came out. I'll self-plug my fluffy Kalarin wine tasting fic too while I'm at it.

As for Kadolin, there's 29 and yes, several of them are explicit. I'll let you scroll through the tag and filter the ratings yourself on that one. I'm sure there's other fics on tumblr or fanfiction.net, but I usually just stick with AO3 because it's so easy to find things.

1 minute ago, DeployParachute said:

So honest question here:  does it really not bother you or others like you who were satisfied with the romance ending in OB that Shallan's feelings for Kaladin weren't addressed before deciding to go ahead with her marriage to Adolin?

What do you mean by "weren't addressed"? Shallan and Adolin have a conversation where Adolin's stunned that she doesn't want Kaladin and Shallan talks about how she was more physically attracted to him but doesn't think he's the right choice for her, and she's choosing Adolin. It's one of my favorite conversations in the book.

Quote

“I have to say this, Shallan. Please.” He stood up tall, stiff. “I’m going to let him have you.”

She blinked. “Let him have me.”

“I’m holding you back,” Adolin said. “I see the way you two look at each other. I don’t want you to keep forcing yourself to spend time with me because you feel sorry for me.”

Storms. Now he’s trying to ruin it! “No,” Shallan said. “First off, you don’t get to treat me like some kind of prize. You don’t decide who gets me.”

“I’m not trying to . . .” He took another deep breath. “Look, this is hard for me, Shallan. I’m trying to do the right thing. Don’t make it harder.”

“I don’t get a choice?”

“You’ve made your choice. I see how you look at him.”

“I’m an artist, Adolin. I appreciate a nice picture when I see one. Doesn’t mean I want to pull it off the hook and go get intimate.”

Kaladin landed on a roof in the distance, still looking the other way. Adolin waved toward him. “Shallan. He can literally fly.”

“Oh? And is that what women are supposed to seek in a mate? Is it in the Polite Lady’s Handbook to Courtship and Family? The Bekenah edition, maybe? ‘Ladies, you can’t possibly marry a man if he can’t fly.’ Never mind if the other option is as handsome as sin, kind to everyone he meets regardless of their station, passionate about his art, and genuinely humble in the weirdest, most confident way. Never mind if he actually seems to get you, and remarkably listens to your problems, encouraging you to be you—not to hide yourself away. Never mind if being near him makes you want to rip his shirt off and push him into the nearest alleyway, then kiss him until he can’t breathe anymore. If he can’t fly, then well, you just have to call it off!”

She paused for breath, gasping.

“And . . .” Adolin said. “That guy is . . . me?”

“You are such a fool.” She grabbed his ripped coat and pulled him into a kiss, passionspren crystallizing in the air around them. The warmth of the kiss did more for her than the tea ever could. It made her bubble and boil inside. Stormlight was nice, but this . . . this was an energy that made it dun by comparison.

Storms, she loved this man.

When she let him out of the kiss, he grabbed her and pulled her close, breathing heavily.

--OB Ch. 121

I see, discussion of her thing for Kaladin, I see Shallan explaining why she loves Adolin, and I see Adolin saying how hard it is for him to step aside, when he thinks that's what she wants even though he loves her, and I see him physically reciprocating her affection in the kiss, wanting to be close after that. 

I mean, that convo is the deal-sealer for me. Choice made, Shadolin not Shalladin, and I think she picked the healthier of the two options, as well. The one that she matches with better.

10 minutes ago, Kogiopsis said:

Since I'm replying anyway, I wanted to respond to this... namely, that Adolin's calm reactions don't indicate a lack of feeling.  I love my girlfriend, but if she would be happier with someone else, I would deal with it much as Adolin tries to... because I love her, and I want her to be happy.  Mercifully that's not the case, but I don't find it at all unrealistic that deep feeling would be expressed as not pitching a fit - especially when, like Adolin, you basically expect every relationship to collapse anyway.  He's probably been bracing for this from Day One.

Not to mention, the Kadolin was strong with this book. With as much as Adolin and Kaladin are expressing their love for each other, when Adolin starts thinking Shallan wants to choose Kaladin, his response is almost "Well I'm sad but who wouldn't choose Kaladin? Honestly, have you seen Kaladin? Kaladin is the best and also my favorite." Thank Harmony for the Kadolin ship, everyone.

As Kogi is one of the founding captains of the Kalarin ship, I doubt you'll see her hopping over anytime soon.

Ah the curse of the moderator badge. Everything reads like an edict.

No one's shutting this topic down or saying that the discussion needs to be stopped. I'm not speaking for Chaos, but my response was meant not as a moderator shutting down discussion, but a beta reader who had insight on the process since that was a point that's been brought up. I've seen several of your responses mention early reviewers not having done enough for Adolin, and as one of them, came to give my perspective on that topic. 

Just as you're allowed to have this discussion in an appropriate thread, so are those who don't agree with you.

3 hours ago, maxal said:

(...) it is very easy to look back and to say our grievances might have been the by-product of the accelerated editing process, the choice of reviewers and Brandon Sanderon's very busy schedule. We however cannot know for sure this is the case... I personally found it baffling the author would purposefully choose to write such an under-whelming story arc for Adolin murdering Sadeas: I do not even understand how Brandon himself thought this was for the best, let alone the dozen of reviewers which went through this book before it got released. Mind, from what I have heard, some didn't like it, but their voice didn't end up changing much to the final product.

Unfortunately, the only individual able to answer those questions would be Brandon Sanderson himself. Chances of that however aren't very high.... these aren't subjects he readily talks about. I have seen him address critics for his previous books, but I am not sure he would believe our grievances are validated.

10 hours ago, maxal said:

You can't get behind the argument neither the alpha nor the beta readers saw fit to point it out to Brandon? I can. Why? Because the readership which Brandon is writing for, the readership which is represented within those groups is not the readership which bothers itself with Adolin nor the romance. It wasn't flagged because those groups loved the book: the percentage of the readership which was disappointed with the book was not represented within any of those groups. This is why it wasn't criticized. Brandon is not writing SA for the purpose of fleshing out Adolin nor the romance, reviewers understand this, hence they are always on-board with whatever Brandon is suggesting.

I thus maintain my point, there are no Adolin viewpoint speaking of his feelings because Brandon just never thought it was important. His reviewers and his editors didn't think it was important either. The "what we see is what we get" quote refers mostly to the "most obvious answer is the best". Adolin loves Shallan. It isn't textually written in the books because Brandon believes the character speaks for himself: it is why he is written is such a shallow way. 

On 1/2/2018 at 1:12 PM, maxal said:

I would love to head Brandon Sanderson comments on the matter. My thoughts are he would disagree with the critics.

Bolding mine, again, to point out the phrases that caught my eye in writing the response.

You spoke of beta readers not pointing out where Adolin was lacking in Oathbringer, but many betas were outspoken on Adolin's behalf, specifically requesting that he needed more viewpoints. Adolin wasn't ignored by the beta team and his plot wasn't missed. It was something commented on and improved, just not brought to the level that you would have wanted. You also spoke of wanting to see Brandon's responses to critics and wondering what his thoughts were on the contention, and I felt the Reddit quote did that as well, acknowledging that there was contention over the plot, but stating that he didn't feel it was flawed and was, in fact, very pleased with how it turned out.

That's why I added the response I did. Not to shut you down but to answer some of the questions you'd been asking and add more information on topics you were discussing.

I can clear up some of the beta reader front. Mostly because Brandon (and the beta team) have talked publicly about the process of the beta read and what things were influenced. For one, betas were outspoken about wanting more Adolin in the books, just not quite to the level that I think that Maxal would have wanted. To me, Oathbringer had enough plot threads that did big transformative character arcs and brought people to cruxes of conscience and character. No, Adolin wasn't one of them, but Adolin did have the privilege of participating in pretty much every major storyline even if he wasn't the focal point of it. The beta draft had much less Adolin, betas complained that they wanted more scenes specifically from his point of view and Brandon did that. The Galant scene in Part 1 was added wholesale in order to give Adolin an early viewpoint and let us into his head there.

Could the Sadeas murder plot have been a major plotline? Sure. Did it absolutely need to be? No, and I think it's fine that it wasn't. Is the book flawed or poorly constructed because that didn't become a major plot? In my opinion, it's not. Brandon picked what he did and didn't want to be a big deal and that one just wasn't picked. Epic fantasy series have problems with overcrowding and too many plots and characters. I think adding an Adolin plot in just because it would have been possible wouldn't have been a wise decision. And I assume Brandon agrees, because he didn't do it.

I'll pull this quote from Brandon in the Beta AMA:

Quote

So here, off the top of my head, are some of the things that I changed in the book related to Beta Reader comments. These topics are "open" for discussion--meaning you can ask Betas for more specifics on them, if you feel like it. These were all things I changed specifically because of Beta interaction.

Adolin's viewpoints were added to Part One. As was a quick run-down on Renarin's powers, and what he was learning to do with them.

The romantic angle between Shallan/Adolin/Kaladin was tweaked as I more and more referenced the idea that two different personalities of Shallan's were in love with two different people. IE--moving it further away from a love triangle, and instead showing more clearly that that Shallan was splitting further into multiple people, with different life goals.

This wasn't coming across in the early drafts, though I sometimes couldn't quite tell which responses were knee jerk "Twilight ruined love triangles! Don't do them!" comments and which were "I'm not convinced these four people--counting Shallan as two--are actually working in relationships." (I'll note that I, personally, am very pleased with how this part turned out in the books--but the betas certainly helped me get there. I'd guess that this is one of the more contentious matters of fan discussion about the book. The point of bringing it up here isn't to discredit anyone's feelings about the actual arc, just point out how the betas helped me find the balance I wanted.)

(source)

(bolding is mine)

It's not that no betas brought up Adolin or the love triangle. It's certainly not that. We had huge discussions about the love triangle, and I have a feeling that the majority of betas who made it to the end wrote at least a paragraph on their thoughts regarding the development of the characters and the arc as a whole. We didn't all agree. Many betas liked it, many didn't, some liked the idea of taking it in different directions, others thought it was fine as is. I've said before I hated the triangle all the way through WoR and Oathbringer for fear that it was playing out in straight cliches. Seeing the ending made it work for me both in hindsight and because of some of the ways Brandon changed it in Oathbringer after beta comments. (I, for one, really liked the reinforcement of Shallan's separation with two different sides of her being interested in two different people. I thought that broke some of the cliche molds that I had been seeing.)

It's fine if the conclusion didn't work for you or if you felt it didn't play out right. But it's not because Oathbringer was a shoddy rush job that didn't get buffed up and edited the way it needed to be. The triangle was always going to be contentious and there will always be fans who wanted something out of a book and didn't get it. (I personally was in a bad place after Words of Radiance because that very thing happened to me there. That's another story though.) But this is the ending that Brandon likes and is proud of. He's pleased with the balance he's hit, even if there's still people who didn't like it. He got a lot of feedback on these parts of the book, probably moreso than anything else in Oathbringer, and he used that feedback to construct the ending that he wanted.

I think he nailed it. You don't have to, but you should understand that Brandon's not going to apologize for the way it turned out or try to redact it and "do better in the future." He liked this ending and he's going to stand behind that, even when other people don't agree.

P.S. This has nothing to do with A/S/K and this thread, but since it's in the quote I gotta brag a little bit that you know ya girl here had some influence in getting more of Renarin's powers in the book. Wasn't just that it was stuff I wanted to see as a Renarin fan, but it helped Renarin's plot to add the things that got added.

10 minutes ago, aemetha said:

See, here's the thing. I don't disagree with that at all. I think that's quite an astute assessment. Where the disagreement comes in for me, is the suggestion that a justice correction is what Adolin did. He didn't even think about justice. He thought about how much he hated Sadeas, snapped and enjoyed inflicting pain on him. Now I'm not saying that makes Adolin a bad person on balance, or a sadist, or a sociopath. I am however saying what he did, considering the motivation for his action was an immoral act, and he should regret the circumstances of that act, if not the outcome of it.

Yeah, I was speaking less to Adolin's motivations and more to the function of it. Adolin lashed out because he felt backed into a corner and saw no other way out. Sadeas was literally gloating about how nothing could stop him and Adolin knew that they'd lose any chance to bring him down with all the chaos of the Everstorm and the move to Urithiru. If there had been a legal way to bring Sadeas to justice, I think Adolin probably wouldn't have ended up feeling backed up into that corner the way he did. So, roundabout the failure of justice is what caused Sadeas' death, even though it wasn't Adolin's direct motivations at the time. And even though fulfilling justice wasn't Adolin's motivation, the killing served that purpose regardless, intent or no.

I'm just going to throw a quick response in here this time, not a line-by-line. I feel at this point I've pretty much talked out my position and I'll just end up repeating myself if I try to keep engaging. A girl can only have so many thoughts on one subject before it runs dry.

That said, I'll fess up that I misremembered the Skybreakers WoB and misquoted it. I should have looked up the actual thing but I thought I remembered it well enough off the top of my head. Silly Feather should know that she doesn't know WoBs as well as canon quotes. Embarrassing. Still, Skybreakers aside, I think the Sadeas situation was one where justice was failed by the system and required an outside correction, and Nale can bite me if he disagrees.

And the last point is about cliches. Yes, I dislike the Shalladin setup because it reads as very cliched to me, but this isn't just because I have a vendetta against the very concept of cliches and anything that remotely resembles a different story is bad. Rather, I dislike when plots feel contrived or formulaic and especially when they don't bring anything interesting. WoR didn't bring anything interesting to me to that plotline and it brought a whole lot of familiar and recycled points. The chasm scene in particular felt particularly egregious as a setup for sexual tension and bonding. Of course those two would be the two who fall into the chasm of course they would need to cuddle to stay warm and Kaladin gets all "aware of her in more ways of one." The follow up of them distractedly thinking of each other felt like it was just stacking up stock forbidden crush reactions all on top of each other.

I mean, it's been a while since I listened to the WoR Splintercast but I'm pretty sure my thought process along the plotline was "huh, Shallan and Kaladin? Did anyone really picture those two getting together?" moving into "uh this bickering and 'oh she's/he's the worst' is definitely turning UST-y" to "oh no... really... they're stranded alone together... I've read this fanfic before..." to "yep, there it is, all that dark heartfelt bonding because of course we gotta have all the cuddling and bonding" to "wow, okay now we're daydreaming about each other and doing this? uuuuuuugh please let this plotline stop happening to me."

I mean, we started off with mild confusion and it was only after it just. kept. going. with no interesting end in sight that I transitioned into annoyance and then true dislike towards the end. It was only later while I was thinking about why the storyline bothered me so much that I started realizing how much I felt they weren't good for each other and questioning that if that were the case and they had all these deepset issues, why Brandon would have chosen to shove them into the love interest lock step like he did. And so very strongly. So deeply unsubtle. Like getting whacked over the head with THIS IS SHALLAN AND KALADIN AND THEY ARE DOING A LOVE INTEREST ROMANCE PLOT NOW, THANK YOU.

Meanwhile I'm sitting through all of these scenes like.

Do Adolin and Shallan feel cliche to me? Not really. She gets excited about meeting him, they both get a little flustered when they meet for the first time, they go on a date and have a silly conversation, and then they kiss at the end because Shallan's been wanting to kiss him for a while. That WoR plotline doesn't read "cliche" to me. It just reads like two people who start dating and like each other. Adolin might be a prince, but his and Shallan's romance definitely isn't fairytale. If anything you could say it's a little too quiet and normal, whereas most romance plots have those big dramatic moments. But in real life, a lot of romances don't have the big dramatic moments. They're just two people who realize they really like each other. 

Perhaps that's the real contrast here. Kaladin and Shallan get the big romance plots. They fight the chasmfiend together, they huddle for warmth, they bare their souls to each other and have this intense bonding experience. I totally understand why people ship Shallan/Kaladin, 100%. If those scenes felt legitimate and that connection felt real and true to you, then sure of course you'd ship it. They were the ones who got the set up. Shallan and Adolin is just kind of Nice™. It's the cute date, the handsome prince who's a bit goofy rather than the wild and passionate longing for dark broody darkeyes she's not supposed to have. 

And in the end I think that's probably the point that Sanderson was trying to make, the twist he was hoping to execute. That sometimes the nice guy that you go on a few good dates with can be The One and sometimes the one that you go down the start of the wild and passionate forbidden love turns out to not be the right pick after all. The subversion makes the cliches work because when you get to the end, Brandon says, "In any other story, she would have picked the forbidden passionate one instead of the one she was 'supposed' to be with, but in this story, I'm going to show you why the opposite is going to happen and she ends up with Adolin instead."

And in the end, I like that little twist a lot.

I'm at the point where I'm not really trying to convince anybody. If you guys really think that there's gonna be way more on the love triangle in the books to come, well, the only thing to do is wait for another book and see what happens. I think it's pretty clearly resolved. But I've been wrong before, so maybe you guys will win out in the end.