YungDankBlast

I don't remember if I mentioned what I thought making someone more powerful in Feruchemy would do, and I couldn't seem to find it in what I wrote earlier, but I originally thought that if you were more powerful in a Feruchemical Investiture, then you would be able to store more. I have now abandoned that idea after I read this: Now, my idea is that if you are more powerful in a Feruchemical Investiture, it takes less energy to "compound" (speaking Feruchemically) the feruchemical attribute. For example, there are two brutes (pewter ferrings), Brute 1 and Brute 2, and Brute 1 is more powerful in his Feruchemy than Brute 2 because he has an extra spike granting him extra pewter Feruchemy Investiture. Both brutes store 10 hours of strength at 50% of their strength. If they were to tap their at the same rate, 50%, they would both be granted 150% of their strength for 10 hours. However, if they were to instead tap at the rate of 100% of their strength, giving them 200% strength, Brute 1 would be able to tap at that rate for, say, 4.5 hours, while Brute 2 would only be able to tap for 4 hours because more of the energy of Brute 2's metalmind is spent toward "compounding" the feruchemical energy.

This reminds me of another idea I heard where a person could burn pewter, giving him more strength, speed, and health, making it easier to store those Feruchemical qualities. I think this is a neat trick, but I had previously seen this mentioned as compounding, and I'm not sure it could be considered as such. What are your thoughts?

Oh wow! Thanks for all of those! I'm cleared up on most everything now, except for full metalmind, mainly because of the Bands. Even if the metals on the Bands were 100% Allomantically pure, it doesn't seem like 1/16th of large spearhead would be able to hold all of the speed that Marasi uses, going faster than sound. I still don't think that metalminds can be completely full, but even if they could, I don't think anyone has yet achieved that unless the Bands were full or the Lord Ruler filled a set at one point. As for Brandon not correcting us, I believe that, the more you store in a metalmind, the harder it would be to store in it (also dependent on size and allomantic purity), and so there would be a point where it is no longer practical to store any more into that metalmind because the rate at which one can store is negligible. It is possible that Brandon simply considered this a "full" metalmind, and did not think it important enough to correct us. Of course, I could be completely wrong, but the Bands of Mourning make me question a little bit...

Let me know if you find anything. Is this WoB or from the novels? I just meant since Allomancy would consume that metalmind or spike burned, the amount of metal a person had would limit their ability to compound through Allomancy.

I'm not sure if you are referring to the previously proposed theory or my theory here, but my main idea with FeruHema compounding was that I did not think it was possible to directly tap the power of the spike because in Feruchemy you tap the certain attribute (say, I tap Feruchemical speed, which I previously stored) not the metal, similar to the way that you can't store allomantic steel power in a steelmind. My idea was that you would still have to spike yourself to gain the attribute, making that Investiture part of your spiritweb. Then, with that added Investiture and the spike still in you, you would store newly gained Investiture into a nicrosilmind. Similar to how a person can store their innate Investiture with a nicrosilmind without running out, I think a person could store the Investiture that a spike grants them, until they remove the spike. They would at this point have lost the Investiture that cam with the spike, but they could still tap the nicrosilmind (or burn it if they had that ability). for the amount of the Investiture that they stored while the pike was in them. Not sure if that clears anything up, but there you go. As for how increase in the strength of Feruchemical Investiture works I have almost no clue, it was simply a guess. I know I was originally hesitant with those ones at first as well because, as you say, its boring. Nothing new that we have not previously seen is there. However, what made me eventually continue on with this idea was the combining of the Investitures. Let's say I have Allomantic bronze Investiture of strength 3, and I am spiked with a spike that has a charge of an Allomantic bronze Investiture of 5. With the spike, I would have a total Allomantic bronze Investiture of 8. If the systems did not "compound", as I am roughly titling it, then it seems that I would two Investitures, an Allomantic bronze Investiture of 3, and an Allomantic bronze Investiture of 5, from which to choose when burning bronze. Not sure if that made much sense, but oh well... Overall, Hemalurgy is difficult to find interactions with the other systems that we would call "compounding" because it already interacts with all other magic systems, even those of the other worlds.

I was under the assumption that metalminds worked in a way where a Feruchemist could store as much as they wanted in a metalmind, simply increasing the concentration of the feruchemical charges, and it simply become more difficult to store the smaller the size of the metalmind and the larger the concentration of charge in the metalmind. Is there proof that metalminds can be filled up all the way? Another limitation is that rate that you can store into a metalmind. It is mentioned somewhere that you can't store speed so that you are 1000000 times slower for 1 minute to be 1000 times faster for 1000 minutes. So, if you were to store into a metalmind and burn it, you may not be able to store all the power that results from burning that metalmind. Remind me again what Mistpoint is? Is that just where an Allomancer is using so much Investiture where they leak mist? Plus, another limitation could be the amount of metal. Yeah, I couldn't think of a way to keep Feruchemy end-neutral while increasing its power, so I just kinda guessed. I would even go so far as to say that this is how the Lord Ruler such powerful Allomancy, only he probably burned the nicrosilmind for a 70 times (7000%) stronger soothing or even more compounding layers. Thanks for the input, I appreciate it!

I started a new thread on this topic with more updated info if you would like to check it out

Do we know this from Brandon? If so, would someone please link me?

Lol, not that I know of, but you never know with worldhoppers...

On page 401-402 of BoM it mentions the Set using the weight storing for the ship: Right at the end there it shows that the Set know how to use the weight changing for both the medallions and the ship. I also wanted to point out that they can feel the energy of the Ettmetal (Harmonium), but I'm not sure how significant that is...

Oh great! I had assumed something like this, but I did not realize that it was confirmed yet, thank you!

Or, it could be that Surgebinders leak more investiture now that Honor was shattered. Just a thought...

Just wanted to pose a few questions about the "Allomantic Grenades", or the Ettmetal cubes that could simulate Allomancy (and Feruchemy). First, when the cube is first used, it is "Invested" with Chromium Allomancy, draining Wax's stores. However, I noticed that the cube does not touch Wax, as would be necessary with a Leecher. So why does it work? Later, when Wax is experimenting with it, the cube uses steel Allomancy as a filter for the power of the Ettmetal, but the cube somehow has the pushing power to move Wayne's metal belt and Wax's shotgun. Does the cube then replicate Wax's push force instead of using its own mass? Also, if it were using steel Allomancy wouldn't it be pushed out of Wayne's hand? If it does replicate Wax's push, could he increase his weight, then charge the cube with steel Allomancy, giving it a greater push force? Though it does not specifically mention the cube, it is probably a similar device, but the Set gets the ship to store its own weight so that it is lighter and easier for the ship to take off. There are a lot of implications here. Is the weight of the ship stored in a certain place? If the device is started in the same way by performing the Feruchemy, and could you use the device to make the ship heavier as well, or only if you had previously stored the ship's weight? Could someone store the ship's Identity then, store weight, creating an Identity-less metalmind of the ship's weight that the person could then use? If the ship can store weight, how would other things, such as health work with the ship? This topic is mostly to spur conversation and the flow of ideas about these curious devices, so let me know what you think...

I also agree that while this seems to be Awakening at first, I don't think it is. It makes no sense that an Awakener would: 1. Awaken a piece of metal, 2. Worldhop to Scadrial, and 3. Lose the item that they put so many Breaths into for another random person to find. I think that your idea about reforged metalminds is plausible, but not with normal metalminds. If metal usually takes a LOT of Breaths to Awaken, then it should take a LOT of Investiture to give it sentience. In that case it would probably take the Bands themselves to supply enough Investiture for the sentience of the metal tools if possible at all. My next idea would be Hemalurgic spikes, but those do not seem to be just lying around, and they would have to be piercing the person for Harmony to speak to them. Next, it could be an unlocked coppermind, such as the coin that Hoid gave to Wax, and the talking tool would simply be the person tapping the memory. I find this highly unlikely, however. My last, and what I consider most possible, idea is related somewhat to Roshar and Sel. When Honor was Shattered by Odium, Honorspren became the Splinters of Honor, and they were able to unite with humans to make them Surgebinders and become their Shardblades. In this case, they were able to speak to the humans. Similarly, Seons on Sel have Splinters, the Aons at their hearts, and they can also speak to the humans they are united with. I believe that Khriss and Nazh are trying to see how badly Harmony is hurt by Odium at the moment by trying to see if He is beginning to Shatter and create Splinters. They mostly likely assumed that this would manifest in the form of metal, as that is generally the method for the Scadrial systems, the Splinter most likely becoming a metal tool or weapon similar to a Shardblade. Or, it could be that Nazh or Khriss lost their Awoken hammer, lol

I think this is the most plausible explanation, though it is a little boring; however, I have another thought. If Hoid tapped the memories Kelsier stored, then by the mechanics of copper Feruchemy, he dumped the coppermind into his own memory for the brief moment he was using it, yes? When the memories were put back into the coppermind after he was done, would the coppermind then retain some ideas/reactions from Hoid's mind while he viewed the coppermind (i.e. flickering memory/reminder of a soulcast building that he saw on Roshar)? It is interesting to think about since this is the first time we see people using each other's copperminds

I stumped it with Lift from the Stormlight Archive, but when I put in the name it was there

I agree with most of the ideas presented so far, but I do have some insight to add. Savanorn, you kept mentioning weight, but what I think you mean is mass. Not trying to be too technical here, but it may be important if Allomancers make it into space and gravity no longer has as much of an effect on them. I think that they would still be able to Push with the same force in that scenario. I don't have too much of a background in physics, but what I am thinking is that Pushing and Pulling exerts a force on the metal being affected, and thus by F=ma, the mass would affect the force of the push. As for Allomancers with stronger steel, it helps me to visualize Pushes as a theoretical stream of particles impacting the metal being pushed, and therefore exerting a force on the object (Newtons of force per second). Stronger Allomancers, because they burn at a faster rate, are releasing a higher number of these theoretical particles, and thus increasing the N/s that the Allomancer is pushing with. This idea also kinda works for why stronger Allomancers can see the lines easier. Let's say a different type of particle that does not exert a force is used (because the Allomancer is not pushing), and that particle has to bounce off of the metal and return to the Allomancer in order to see a blue Allomantic line. Stronger allomancers then are releasing more particles, giving them a higher chance to hit smaller bits of metal and return. And when metal is further away, the chance that the particles would find the metal and return is smaller as well. By using this idea I might be bold enough to theorize that stronger Allomancers would also be able to see metals from further distances than weaker Allomancers.

I promise I'm not trying to get into a fight with you, but here is how I see it. When you use Allomancy, you burn a certain metal and gain the investiture associated with that metal from Preservation. You have the ability to burn metals invested with Feruchemical stores, but this is not the original purpose of Allomancy. Similarly, Nicrosil Feruchemy has the ability to store Allomantic investitures. However, I believe the original purpose of Nicrosil Feruchemy was to boost the strength of Feruchemical Investiture (for example, you store, say, steel Feruchemy Investiture, so that you can later store speed at faster rates). In this way, by using Nicrosil Feruchemy with Allomantic Investitures, you are mixing the two systems in the same way as the known form of Compounding, which is why I would personally refer to this as Compounding. But we can agree to disagree if you don't agree...

I just posted a similar idea of using this Nicrosil Feruchemy as a way to compound Allomancy along with other possible compounding theories. I would argue that for the original form of compounding, one uses one magic system (Allomancy), in order to enhance another magic system (Feruchemy). While you refer to this interaction as a "hack", it is really just the two magic systems working how they usually do, simply interacting with each other. In the same way, this form also uses the normal functions of Feruchemy, and it adds Allomancy, enhancing the Allomancy as a result. I would also say that this is a way to take Feruchemical stores and manifest them as Allomancy. I think this is an entirely separate form of compounding. *Side Note: Couldn't Wax simply have increased his weight to pull down the ship? It wasn't too heavy to begin with because of the devices that made the ship lighter. And for the rock, I think the increased steel power let him push on the trace metals, but mass determines the force of pushes and pulls

This forum is mainly a response to the thread entitled "Compounding Mechanics", posted by 18th Shard. Here is the link: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/4633-compounding-mechanics/#comment-74496 In that post, 18th Shard theorizes about the mechanics of the magic system and proposes the following possible forms of compounding: Allomancy powering Feruchemy Feruchemy powering Allomancy Allomancy powering Hemalurgy Feruchemy powering Hemalurgy Hemalurgy powering Feruchemy Hemalurgy powering Allomancy This post will cover my personal opinions on the mechanics of these systems as well as the mechanics of the possible compounding types. Feel free to make comments on my theories, propose your own ideas, and mention anything that you believe that I missed. Check out the above link for the mechanics proposed by 18th Shard in his post. First, we have Allomancy powering Feruchemy, or what I call AlloFeru compounding. This type of compounding has been directly proven by the novel, and was used by the Lord Ruler in the first Mistborn novel as well as Miles Hundredlives from the Alloy of Law novel to gain feruchemical power 10x that of the amount stored inside a metalmind by burning it allomantically. I am going over this one because there were debates on how it works. Some people argue that allomancy is merely magnifying the feruchemical effect, but I don't think this is the case. I believe that the feruchemical charge is a filter for the investiture typically gained while burning a metal. So burning a metalmind gives you the same amount of power usually gained from allomantically burning a metal, but in the form of feruchemical power. Also, you only gain the feruchemical effect while burning a metalmind, none of the allomantic effects, so the feruchemical charge in essence creates a new allomantic metal that gives a feruchemical attribute. In a way, the steel without feruchemical charges already has a filter for the investiture, simply by being the right alloy to be an allomantic metal. Let's say, for example, that steel has an innate filter of 0.1 allomantic "charge" (steelpushing) per gram of steel. When burned, investiture is taken from the power of Preservation, and because of the end-positive nature of allomancy, the power is used through the filter, resulting in 10x the power of the filter, in this case 1 allomantic charge per gram. If I were to instead feruchemically invest that piece of steel with 1 feruchemical "charge" (speed) per gram, the steel would adopt the new filter instead, overwriting the original allomantic filter. However, allomancy is still end-positive, so when the steel with the feruchemical filter is burned, the investiture output still results in 10x the power of the filter, or 10 "charges" of speed per gram in this case. I believe the filters and charges for the metals has to do with how the metal views itself in the Cognitive Realm, but that gets into Realmatic Theory, and I am not very experienced in that subject. Next, Feruchemy powering Allomancy, or FeruAllo compounding, seems the most likely other than the already existing AlloFeru compounding. This is the type of compounding that I believe that the Lord Ruler used to drastically increase his Allomantic ability. The original idea proposed for FeruAllo compounding in the post is that you can burn an allomantic metal, then somehow store the allomantic ability in a metalmind instead of using it instantly. This would be beneficial so that the allomantic power could be tapped at much higher rates than possible with normal allomancy for greater power. The difficulty with this theory is that there is no known way to store allomantic power. The first theory presented on the forum argued that because AlloFeru compounding only required that a metalborn be a misting and a ferring in the same metal, the same should be true for FeruAllo compounding. They believed that a metal can store two things: both its feruchemical and allomantic powers. I do not personally support this theory because I feel that AlloFeru compounding works by using both the mechanics of Allomancy and Feruchemy, not by breaking those rules. In Allomancy, one can burn a specific metal and the investiture of Preservation gives them an ability, they are not burning a specific trait or ability, while in Feruchemy they are storing a trait, not a specific metal. So, AlloFeru compounding works because an allomancer can burn the metal independent of what feruchemical traits are attached to that metal, but FeruAllo compounding does not work this way because a feruchemist can only store the specific trait, they cannot store the allomantic abilities that can come from burning that metal. The second theory was that allomantic abilities could be burned and stored by a feruchemist in a nicrosilmind because nicrosil stores investiture. This seemed the most likely to me at first, but when Sanderson released BoM, nicrosil was used in a different way, though I suppose this method could still be possible using a metal with an unknown feruchemical ability (feruchemical lerasium?). The alternate theory that I came up with, which seems the most reasonable to me, has some BoM spoilers so... It is at this point that we get into the more complicated types of compounding, mostly due to the fact that Hemalurgy comes into play. The idea behind Allomancy powering Hemalurgy (AlloHema) is that an allomancer spikes someone to steal a trait from them, then burns that spike, giving the allomancer the stolen trait with increased power. The downside to this is that because the allomancer burns the spike, they gain the trait only as long as they are burning the spike. This theory is somewhat likely, but I believe that there is a slight problem. Similar to when an allomancer burns a metalmind that isn't theirs, the allomancer in this case may be locked out of the power within the spike because it isn't attuned to their spiritweb. The way I see it, there are two different ways to get around this. First, an allomancer could burn a hemalurgic spike that stole an ability from them. The problems with this are that they most likely died from having that part of their spiritweb ripped from the rest of them (though it is possible that they survived), and their spiritweb may not actually be attuned to the ability because that part of their spiritweb was stolen from them. This would also not be very beneficial to them. By burning that spike, they would get increased power for a short time, but as soon as the metal of the spike was gone, they would have lost that ability forever. The other way I see to bypass this is for an allomancer to steal the trait from another person, then spike themself so that the power in the spike is part of their spiritweb. Sanderson has mentioned before that inquisitors could have theoretically burned their eye spikes, but it would have been extremely painful and would have knocked them unconscious. It would most likely be painful because the inquisitor would be burning away part of their spiritweb, ripping it away from them, similar to the way that traits are stolen during Hemalurgy. However, if one could somehow find a way to get rid of or tolerate the pain, they would be able to access the trait given to them by the spike with increased power, even though it would only last as long as they burned the spike. However, it may be impossible to get over the pain, making this form of compounding basically useless. One interesting interaction I thought about was using this form of compounding with, for example, a steel spike granting allomantic steel. By burning the spike, you increase the allomantic power of your steel, which increases the power with which you burn the steel spike, increasing the power again, repeating over and over again almost instantly giving the user infinitely powerful steel allomancy. If this is possible, it would only be possible with metals that could grant their own allomantic ability, such as steel, bronze, aluminum (inert), atium, and one other unknown allomantic temporal metal (not gold- most likely cadmium). The possibilities with these metals (except aluminum) are all interesting; let me know what you think. Next is Feruchemy powering Hemalurgy (FeruHema), where you steal a hemalurgic attribute, then store the attribute in a metalmind to be able to tap at larger rates for greater power. There is a similar problem with this method of compounding as there was with the previous method, namely that the spike's power is not attuned to the compounder. So, similarly, the spike would have to be a trait that was stolen from you, or you would have to spike yourself with the stolen trait. The main debate for this type of compounding is whether feruchemical and hemalurgic charges can interact with each other. If they do, then a feruchemist should be able to directly tap the spike for the stolen trait. My main problem with this theory is that there is no limit to how much hemalurgic charge one can tap from the spike, and though it would probably be related to how powerful the victim was in the stolen trait, it doesn't seem likely that the charges would interact in this way because they are separate systems. My personal theory has spoilers again... Compounding types powered by Hemalurgy, HemaAllo and HemaFeru compounding, are... well... I think they are simpler than they appear. Actually, I believe that they have been used in the series already. The methods for these types of compounding as they were presented in the other post, I believe, are incorrect. Now, this is just a theory, so don't get upset, but compounding is the method of using one of the metallic arts to boost another, and the ideas for those two types of compounding in the post are only used to share investitures with others. For HemaFeru compounding, I believe that feruchemically storing an attribute into a spike would provide a filter, similar to how the feruchemical charge in AlloFeru compounding provided a filter for the power supplied through Allomancy. However, in this case the filter restricts what can be stored and gained during the hemalurgic process. So if I stored feruchemical speed in a spike, I would only be able to steal not only just feruchemical steel, but only my feruchemical steel because the feruchemical charge is attuned to my spiritweb. And, unless I stole my own feruchemical speed through Hemalurgy, I would not be able to steal an attribute from another person because of the filter. Either this is the case, or feruchemical and hemalurgic charges have no interaction with each other, in which case the spike would simply act as it normally would, stealing an attribute, not granting the other person feruchemical charges. For HemaAllo compounding, there is simply no way to store allomantic power in the spike. However, if there was a way, I believe that it would act in a similar way, creating a filter as the feruchemical charge did and having the same result. My theory is that these types of compounding are where you already have an investiture, for example allomantic bronze, and you spike someone and steal their allomantic bronze in order to boost your own allomantic bronze. Sound familiar? If this is the correct way to compound, then Vin was a compounder the entire time. The same goes with HemaFeru compounding, boosting feruchemical power by stealing the same attribute from another person. Its boring, I know, but I believe that it makes the most sense. I wanted to add a little note at the bottom here to suggest the idea that multiple forms of compounding could be used in conjunction with one another, for example AlloFeruAllo compounding, where one stores allomantic investiture, then burns the metalmind for even greater power (or AlloFeruAlloFeruAllo... compounding). There are other combinations that include hemalurgic compounding as well, but I will let you guys look into those on your own. I realize that some of the methods of compounding in this chapter did not follow the compounding rules presented on the forum, but I do not feel that renders these forms of compounding particularly impossible or unlikely. If you feel I have broken fundamental rule of a metallic art, let me know. Edit: If you stored Allomantic Nicrosil investiture in a nicrosilmind and compounded it, it may result in unlimited nicrosil power, and one could compound other nicrosilminds of other investitures to have unlimited power in those Investitures.

I haven't looked through most of the discussion here to see if someone has suggested this yet (because frankly it's too long), but in my opinion Isabelle Fuhrman really looks the part (Vin) and is around the same age. I'm not sure how well her acting is, but she looks like Vin to me.