Blackhoof

On 7/14/2023 at 9:49 AM, Frustration said:

Yeah a little bit, but for much different reasons. 

I make military analysis of Cosmere worlds(this one should be along at some point) and the world before the machine and the one covered in the shroud were both much more powerful than what was left over.

Really? Considering the new world is a fusion of both, I would think it's superior from a military standpoint.

The shroud is gone, so all the resources directed towards providing light and the Nightmare Painters can be redirected to more productive ends. And now the ground is warm but not so hot that it warps society around it and requires everyone to devote resources to surviving the ground and floating buildings.

Hion remains, and is a fantastic power source that could easily be used for weaponry, and there are now free spirits that can be drawn out by historical dramas to create fabrials.

The implication is that there are no more yoki-hijo which is a weakness, but the hion more than makes up for that I thought 

16 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Well it does say "they will love him for it". It's not IMO definite that Discord will be a bad thing overall. Current Sazed doesn't want it, but he's already compromised by his Shards, and anyway his pre-Ascension personality was a better fit for Harmony anyway.

I think Discord would definitely be a bad thing *for Sazed* (it would mean he'd lost his original human personality to the Shards) but not automatically a bad thing *for Scadrial*. Shard names are generally... charged, more positive or negative than the raw concept really has to be (Preservation not Stasis, Ruin not Entropy, Honor not Binding, etc.) Discord could be a force of creative tension and productive competition instead of one of destructive entropic chaos. Or it could be a protective force in a way Sazed really isn't now, destroying in order to protect. A Sazed more willing to use his Ruin side could have prevented most of the Era 2 problems by smiting the early Set members, for example. In an universe with hostile Shards out there, a more interventionist Sazed might be a net positive.

Of course, encouraging Sazed to just smite people is probably not a great thing. But I think a lot of Wax's arc is about Destroying to Protect being a potentially valid thing in some circumstances, though incomplete or invalid in other circumstances (Marasi represents the other side imo).

Well what if Discord takes the side of the North in the impending North-South Scadrial Cold War, and therefore the North loves him for it because they have a god on their side. But what if the North are in the wrong, or its a complex situation? We generally accept that deities shouldn't take sides in mortal conflicts, and certainly Harmony wouldn't, but Discord might be activist and interventionist to a negative degree, even if he benefits some people or has good intentions.

Just spitballing- it might be anything

On 17/11/2022 at 4:11 AM, Isilel said:

I am with you about everything else, but I really want new Era 3 characters to be from more normal backgrounds, i.e. not rich descendants of the Era 1 and 2 characters and not orphaned street urchins. Middle class, working class, etc. I'd dearly like to see how awakening of Metallic talents affect lives of such people, given their potential to be life-changing. And to finally learn how new snapping happens and whether it is required for ferrings too!

Now that I think about it, adolescence must be even more stressful on Scadrial, with everyone desperately hoping to manifest a cool power, only to become more and more disappointed as years pass...

In terms of Snapping, I believe Brandon has confirmed that Harmony altered the process so that the trauma of being born Snaps all mistings. I assume they only manifest their powers in adolescence though.

I think Discord will be inevitable in Era 3, and part of the plot will involve saving Sazed somehow from Discord, whether it be restabilizing him into Harmony or adding a third Shard to make him something new once more.

We can only speculate what Discord is like, but my guess is the opposite of Harmony. Whereas Harmony wants to act and do good for people, but has become increasingly indecisive and incapable of acting because of the warring Intents of Ruin and Preservation, Discord will be the release valve- no more indecision, just decision and action, regardless of the consequences. Wild and chaotic actions and displays of power, at least on a cosmic scale and when in communion with his followers, that has flow on effects that are broadly negative to peace on Scadrial.

Interesting to see that in E2 all these far-reaching regions even further than the Roughs have names, which seems a bit interesting because as far as we know no-one really lives out there, so the names are just for administrative purposes on a map. You don't really need a name for a place no-one goes to or travels to.

I didn't really see an issue with the amount of Radiants, it was natural for them to spring up once a bit of time had passed, and once it was safe for them to come out of hiding.

Being a Radiant was basically a crime punishable by death for centuries. There were certainly hidden Radiants, just like Kaladin, Shallan and Jasnah. Our heroes are unique, but not THAT unique. Nale was going around killing them of course (clear evidence of the existence of hidden Radiants), but those Spren would have found new people to bond.

Once it was acceptable for Radiants to emerge from hiding, they began popping out of the shadows. Individual Spren had already felt the coming danger and had been searching for people to bond for decades (see Shallan finding a bond over 10 years ago). When the Everstorm came that would have hastened the urgency for Spren and so they went out looking for people to bond, and squires are a good fit to bond because they've already proven themselves to some degree. The timeskip was a good way to get over the time-wasting of telling 200 separate stories of how each and every Radiant came into service with their individual stories.

16 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Part of the reason I don't find the current circumstances so dire is...whats the big deal of armies and nations if 7 radiants kept back a whole army by themselves on Thaylenah? ^^. I know it was exceptional circumstances, and even then they only held the army back for a while, but still...7 Radiants, seriously.

1 hour ago, Varenus said:

Curious as to why you think this, because unless we are talking about Radiants of the first or second ideal, the Fused don't really seem all that threatening to our Knights so far. 

Kaladin was able to successfully defend Dalinar from not only a Yalig-Nar enhanced, shardplate wearing, dual shardblade wealding Amaram; but a handful of the Fused at the same time. Sure Rock saved him at the very end, but the only times Kaladin was in any danger from the Fused was when he was out of stormlight. Storms, He even "killed" one without using any lashings while he was with the wall guard and he is only of the third ideal. 

Jasnah, who is probably of the fourth ideal if not the fifth, was destroying their vessels with her eyes practically closed. 

So, yes while their ability to return from the dead is fancy, they can't really kill a Radiant either. What wound would be able to kill a Radiant that a Fused could deliver? They don't have shardblades of their own that we have seen. Getting smashed by a thunderclast does not work as Renarin survived it easily enough. Shallan got shot in the storming head, so even stabbing them through their eyes wouldn't work. That leaves complete beheading and maybe the surge of division. Both of which become much harder, if not impossible, once a Radiant gets their plate. 

Both of these points are connected- we must remember that at the Thaylenah, the Radiants had just been super-charged by Dalinar. He gave them absurd amounts of Stormlight for free and kept pumping it to them as they fought. The only reason they held back the army was because Shallan used that Light to create an illusory army and distract them. And the only reason various characters were able to survive and ignore so many injuries is because that endless Stormlight healed them.

In normal circumstances, you have much, much less carried in your pocket. You can't just ignore fatal wounds for hours, you need to conserve your light or you will run out, and quickly.

3 hours ago, ZacC said:

A few things don't seem chronologically correct to me.

First: Human's move to Roshar after ruining their home.

Next: The Desolations begin.

Then: Spren start imitating the Heralds surgebinding abilities through the Nahel Bond.

 I'm not sure when the Herald's were created in this timeline but, even if it was before the exodus, doesn't something seem off? Talenel himself recollects the Nahel Bond is relatively new albeit in his addled. If surgebinding powers are newish how did the "voidbringers" ruin their home with it millennium ago? Or am I misunderstanding something?

A very good point, I was thinkign the exact same thing.

This, coupled with the disease-based magic system of Ashyn, leads me to think that Odium was behind the magic system of Surge-manipulation on Ashyn, and he left it when humans did. He followed humanity to Roshar (sort of) and then was trapped there in the Oathpact. The few survivors on Ashyn eventally created floating cities to live on, and expanded on their own.

Me neither  I had a lot of fun here, and the camaraderie was fantastic. Even though we never finished it properly, the journey is much more important than the destination.

Haha I am picturing an alternate future with Kharbranth perched on a chunk of ground, ending three feet from the walls, floating in the void. 

19 hours ago, Llarimar said:

I think it's important to remember that Dalinar is a brutal, merciless warlord at times - especially in his flashbacks.  He even candidly asks Hoid in WoK, "am I a tyrant?" to which Hoid replies, "Yes, but you're what this world needs right now" (paraphrasing).  Everyone can accept that despite his brutal methods, Dalinar is categorically a good guy, and that he is exactly what Roshar needs.  He might not have a spotless record, but he has good intentions, and his darker sides are what give him the wisdom and experience.

I see Taravangian in exactly the same way.  He may do terrible things at times, but desperate times call for desperate measures, and I think it's quite possible that as the Stormlight series accelerates, the actions of Taravangian will prove to be exactly what is needed to topple Odium from a direction he least expects it.  I would be quite surprised if Taravangian unceremoniously dies or if nothing productive is accomplished by the Diagram - I think Taravangian is a key player for the future of the series (depending on how long he lives), who will have a satisfying story arc and a noble, perhaps even heroic death.  

The difference, I think, is that Dalinar doesn't say, "wow, burning Rathalas sure solved lots of problems, and was justified in the end. I'm going to take that idea and use it to unify the whole world!"

No, he is horrified about it, and spends literally all of OB rejecting his bloodthirsty past and the idea of "destination before journey" and in the end has a peaceful, cooperative coalition for it. Had he embraced the dark side, he would be wasting his time trying to conquer Azir while the Voidbringers ran rampant.

Dalinar and Taravangian are complete opposites. Dalinar sees his past as a mistake to learn from, and Taravangian is happily living that mistake right now, every day when he does risky things that could doom humanity just because the Diagram said it might be a good idea for cucumber Taravangian to MAYBE seize control of the coalition. Taravangian is the opposite of what the world needs right now, whereas Dalinar is exactly what it needs.

However, I agree with this general theory that the Diagram is a long con to get Mr T as a sleeper agent within Odium's forces. For the Diagram to be built up just to be thwarted by idiot T and rendered useless is... pointless. Are we to believe that Genius T made this whole plan that in the end boiled down to "make a deal with Odium once he thinks he needs you to save "everyone you rule", but once he sees through that obvious ploy, to save Kharbranth. Whoopee."? No, that would be absurd. The Diagram was made for a purpose, and a higher one than merely saving Kharbranth, and made by someone who would predict the weakness of idiot T and the cunning of Odium.

13 hours ago, .S.A.M.K.M said:

The king negotiated for those born in or married to a citizen of the city to survive, that could potentially be used against odium. He is bound by his deal.

Maybe, but it seems like the only way to do that would be:

a) expand the bounds of the city to retroactively cover the whole world, meaning that everyone was "born" in Kharbranth

b )perform millions of polygamous marriages to marry everyone on earth to someone in Kharbranth, thus protecting everyone under the 'spouse' clause.

Both of which seem quite unlikely  

On 12/12/2017 at 10:13 PM, kaellok said:

i liked him better in WoK and WoR.  In OB, we find out how stupid the Diagram's point really is--fight annihilation by capitulating to its author?  The question before was, "Wow, I wonder if Mr T's alternate method of saving the world, in comparison to the Radiant's, will actually work!"  Now it is, "Just how many people will be killed because of this useless plan?"

Really not understanding any love for Mr T's long-term plans post-OB.

Actually, as Odium says the plan (as the Diagram interpreted it at least) was to get Odium to agree to save everyone that Mr T ruled, which he planned to be the whole world. But without the nonce to negotiate properly, Mr T fluffed his chance at the deal because Odium saw through it so easily.

But, the thing is, maybe him and his gang misinterpreted the Diagram completely. And as was seen, the Diagram is wrong about some key things, such as Dalinar turning. I would bet that the last thing Mr T has before he dies is a moment of realisation that he had gotten a key point wrong, and that he had made a deal with evil for nothing.

23 hours ago, Comatose said:

Great post Blackhoof!  The fight scene was really fun, and I like how you brought some of our heroes together.

Thanks guys  I struggled a little because Argon is quite powerful, so I felt the fight had gone on for as long as it reasonably could.

Awesome stuff  

A full-map Final Empire mod would be pretty cool as well, but obviously a lot more work aha

It would be fantastic to play as a noble scheming from within the empire, and transitioning to a noble fighting over the remains of the Empire. Only issue with that last part obviously is that the collapse and civil war only lasts 2 years before Sazed saves the world. But I guess you could eliminate the influence of Ruin for gameplay's sake, like an alternate history where the civil war is allowed to continue forever without Ruin imminently destroying the world.

23 minutes ago, Yata said:

I believe the whole discussion miss a crucial point.

Some Humans arrived by another World and becomed the Voidbringers. But there where already Humans of Roshar prior than that. So the in mixing of those two kinds of Humans could be the cause of Rosharans variability.

Ah, is this known? It seemed to me that the arrival of humans as Voidbringers was the first time those Dawnsingers had seen humans at all. Thus, the first humans to arrive in Roshar period were the Voidbringers.

23 minutes ago, Yata said:

Regard the Oathgates, they can't predate the Knight Radiant as the Radiant Spren discovered only After the Heralds' Honorblade to be' able to performe Surgebinding (and the Oathgates use the Trasportation Surge).

Hmm very good point. Given that the Gates require Blades, they can't predate the creation of the Honorblades. The Parshendi obviously do not have the ability to use the Gates at all either, they still need a Blade.

Hmm, then again, we have seen that the guardian-spren receive orders from Honor himself. Perhaps Honor ordered the Spren to only open the gate if the opener had a Blade?

Now maybe I am stretching things to sustain my theory  but what if the original Oathgates required no key, or a different key? Then when Honor made the Blades and gave them to the Heralds, he instructed the guardian-spren to only open the gates if the opener had a blade, and added the keyhole to the physical construction.

23 minutes ago, Yata said:

One last thought, but It's not really relevant. Some Rosharan's etnicity came from species other than Singers' influence. The Natan are for example mixed with the Aimians and Roshar's weird genetics could explain some of the other funcy stuffs that happened to mankind's diversity. I Talk about the mixing of genetic material rather than the way It happen in real world (Alethi's hair an example of this)

True, and the Herdazians and Horneaters having Parshmen genes. It was suggested that the Alethi could be from Nalthis originally, given the weird hair stuff going on.

Hey everyone, I made a post finishing up Iconoclast's story in Corvallis. Obviously a bit rushed but I am happy with it

@Voidus @Cognizantastic @Kobold King @Ookla the Incognizant @Mestiv @breakingamber

Three Days Later

Jumpdrive frowned at the screen. Corvallis was in chaos, with a rebellion of humans adding to the general feelings of imminent destruction that was facing the city. He wasn't sure what the point of this exercise was, but he would still stay and follow orders. Not for Buttercup, or Rainmaker, or the absent Euphoria. Or for the city. But for Michael. 

For today, he hunted Michael's killer. Not himself, but the Epic that had forced him to kill his own friend.

Iconoclast.

Locator buzzed, reminding him of his mission as his thoughts distracted him. Looking at the screen, he saw that the drone he had flicked to was seeing something. An old church, it seemed, with a crowd of people inside. And around the edges.... ghouls. The creatures skulked out of the shadows, blood covering their bestial claws and faces. The stained-glass windows of the church were intact. Evidently, the inhabitants did not have guns or other means of defending themselves. They would be slaughtered. The beasts howled and charged. He nearly piloted the drone onwards, not wishing to see yet another slaughter in the charnal-house the city had become. But he noticed something strange. The ghouls reached the windows, the people screamed, but.... there was no smashing glass. 

The ghouls stopped, avoiding the flimsy windows and hissing as they circled the building. 

Jumpdrive was astounded. He'd seen ghouls jump straight through windows before, shards of glass slicing their skin to pieces. They didn't feel pain. Why stop? He moved the drone closer, trying to get a better look. His suspicions were confirmed- the windows were not barred, or boarded-up, and they could clearly see and hear the people inside. They should be climbing through the windows and bashing down the door, but they simply stalked around them. 

Suddenly a jolt of realisation his him. Every Epic had a weakness. His research had confirmed that the weakness worked even against Giftings of that Epic's power. The only thing that could possibly be deterring those things.... was if something about that building, or those windows, triggered Iconoclast's weakness. This could be the secret. He studied the windows. "Locator, get me in touch with Buttercup. She needs to know about this...."

Hours later....

Iconoclast and Slaughterine made a happy pair of murderers. The streets were abandoned, and the distant sound of gunfire could be heard. Chaos followed him wherever he went, and it had come here with but a little push. He had kidnapped their little Epic Broadcast, using his power to disrupt communications, send out calls for revolution, and incite terror. Then, his constant attacks and threats against the Queen Bubbles prevented Corvallis from controlling movement into and out of the city. It hadn't been long before most of the Epics had begun fleeing with their own servants. The servants and slaves had risen up in violent mobs, and the Epics had fled even faster. It wasn't long before many of the security forces had begun joining the rebels, or fleeing on their own. And through it all had been him and Slaughterine, slaying guard units, turning humans into beasts, and sowing fear throughout the city and its citizens.

It had been a good few weeks.

An armoured van suddenly veered from around the corner in front of them, with the badge of the Corvallis Security Forces emblazoned on the sides. "Ah, more lackeys of Rainmaker, to interrogate me about my crimes!" Iconoclast laughed. The armoured car sped towards them, and Slaughterine ran for a nearby yard to get out of the way. Iconoclast kept laughing, holding his hands behind his back. Slowly, they hardened, two fists becoming like rock, bones and joints stiffening. The car was almost upon him, tinted windshield reflecting his own visage back upon him. He was reminded in seeing that face that it wasn't his real face. Never, never his real face.

Just before the van hit him, he leaped up, enhanced leg muscles  propelling him forward with great force. He thrust his hardened arms in front of him, and he met the windshield of the speeding vehicle like a rocket. The impact shattered his arms, and he could feel every crack, break and fracture as the shock reverberated through his skeleton.  His arms were nearly ripped from his body. But the windshield shattered too.

Sailing through the wreckage, glass tearing his skin apart, Iconoclast came face-to-face with the shocked human driver. His momentum crushed them together, and Iconoclast's jagged teeth found his throat as the van veered off course. The guard let out a gurgled scream, and Iconoclast felt his bones healing back together again as he ripped the driver's throat out.

The vehicle crashed onto its side, sliding through a lawn and crashing into a nice suburban house. 

Slaughterine ran to help him, and the back doors of the van fell open. As Iconoclast crawled out of the shattered and bloodied canopy of the van, three figures emerged from the back, recovering from the crash remarkably well. Two women and a man, all carrying weapons. He recognised one- Buttercup, head of Corvallis Security.

"Master!" Slaughterine begged. "That is Buttercup! We need to GO!" Iconoclast laughed, snapping himself back together. "Perhaps, little one, but for now, I want to have a little fun..."

The two groups faced each other, the wheel of the van still spinning idly. Iconoclast shuddered, the final re-positioning complete. He was fully healed. He smiled broadly, revealing a row of razor-sharp teeth amidst his otherwise nondescript, middle-aged features. "Well well well! If it isn't Buttercup herself! And her little band of deputies! Hmm... strange, they don't seem to be in uniform. Did all your real officers run away?"

Buttercup looked furious, but said nothing. She hefted a large axe, to go with the spear and samurai sword the others wielded. Iconoclast was curious- why... swords? Medieval weapons? Did they think a sword could do more to him than a gun or a speeding van could? After a silence, he continued. "I think you should give up, all three of you. The city is lost, and my ghouls run rampant already. I have spent the last day building up quite the number of them! My advice is to leave, and end this totalitarian little project you have here. Embrace the chaos, and take what you want! Like true Epics should."

The three spread out, holding their weapons carefully, all with the sharp edges of the blades facing him. The man, however, held his crookedly, so that the flats were exposed. That is when he saw something on the blade. Some arrangement of symbols, scratched into the metal. He narrowed his eyes, and felt the slightest tinge of fear. Could they..... The man saw him looking at his weapon, and he started, twisting it so that the symbols were out of view. Iconoclast froze. They... they knew. They knew his weakness!

Iconoclast screamed, "Destroy the blades! Slaughterine, destroy the weapons!" Buttercup yelled a warcry and all three charged towards him, wielding weapons marked with holy symbols. He knew that one of them would be a cross.

Slaughterine reacted with a start, and blasted lightning at Buttercup. Her bolts arced out, striking the axe and her arm, and she dropped the smoking, charred weapon with a cry of pain. The man slowed, turning in concern, as Slaughterine enveloped him in lightning too. The man, however, barely seemed to notice, although his spear caught fire and the head seemed to char and melt under the heat.

The samurai-woman got to her too fast, and as Iconoclast backed away in fear, the katana whipped around and severed Slaughterine's arm. She screamed, and with a wave of her other arm sent arcs of red lightning into the samurai. It was the samurai's turn to cry out, as her clothing and body burned under the fierce bolts. The woman fell to the ground, and Slaughterine whimpered, clutching her bleeding stump.

Iconoclast felt his fear draining away. Their weapons.... they were destroyed. The symbols charred. They could do nothing to hurt him now. 

Buttercup rose to her feet, burns and injuries healing. The man was completely unharmed, but looked concerned at the fallen samurai. She didn't move, her body burned and her sword a charred, twisted mess. The man lifted his hand, and the samurai began floating through the air, to rest behind them. Iconoclast scowled at Slaughterine, "Cauterise your wound and stop whining!" She looked angry, but with a flash of light she did so.

Iconoclast grew thicker skin, sharper claws, and spiny ridges along his shoulders and back. Soon he was a beast of thick, corded muscle, like a nightmare given form. "I will kill you both! I will end you like the monsters you truly are!" He charged.

His charge was foiled at the last minute as both of his opponents took to the sky, hovering above and behind him. He felt a great force take over him, and he was mentally yanked backwards by the male Epic. Slaughterine shot a bolt of scarlet lightning skywards, only narrowly missing Buttercup as she swooped towards her, fists at the ready. Iconoclast turned, and with a powerful jump leaped at the male. The man looked shocked as he sailed towards him, and could barely react before clawed fists wrapped around his arms. A normal man would have had his limbs ripped off, but Iconoclast could tell that this Epic had a powerful form of resilience. Perhaps invulnerability. But he was not super strong, and he was unable to pry the monster off of him. Reaching up, Iconoclast tried to rip his face apart, but his claws skated off the skin and eyes without so much as a scratch.

Buttercup soared towards Slaughterine, but a hail of red lightning knocked her to the ground. As she healed her charred skin, Slaughterine staggered forwards and prepared to unleash another blast.

Seeing this, the man showed real concern, and waved his free hand to send Slaughterine flying backwards. Seizing on this, Iconoclast wrenched himself upwards, catching the man in a great, crushing hug and dragging the distracted Epic to the ground. Still, he suffered no damage, but was now pinned underneath the insane Epic. Iconoclast laughed as he formed an iron grip around the man's arms. The male Epic glared at him, and his laugh died as he felt a great force pushing him away. The sudden wrenching force was too great, and his fingers were smashed or ripped off as he was thrown off the Epic and onto the street. He crashed into the tar, and staggered to his feet. He saw the man rise as well, staring him down as behind him, Buttercup rose to her feet.

Iconoclast grinned. "Why do you fight for them, mysterious Epic? You could do so much for yourself! Whether or not you serve me! Go and take what you want in this city of ruins! Live this beautiful collapse! Instead you try, futilely, to stem this inevitable change?"

The male shook his head. "My name is Argon. And I am better than that."

Suddenly, a gaggle of ghouls emerged from between two nearby houses. The ghouls sniffed the air, and soon saw the combat happening. With growls, they charge towards the fresh meat. Argon, Buttercup and Slaughterine turned in surprise as screaming ghouls descended upon them. Iconoclast laughed, and leaped forward. Distracted, Argon didn't see him coming- and they both crashed to the ground as Argon was brought to the ground. Iconoclast bashed his head into the street, and with another powerful leap, sprang up towards Buttercup, who was fighting his ghouls nearby. Argon tried to rise, but two ghouls sprang onto him and brought him back down. 

Buttercup easily killed her ghouls, while Iconoclast directed them away from Slaughterine. Buttercup turned to see Iconoclast in his thorny horror descend upon her. He slashed open her chest, but she gritted her teeth and retaliated with a green-glowing punch that shattered his shoulder. They both immediately began healing, and trade more blows. Iconoclast slashes while Buttercup strikes, both leaving injuries that barely last. Slaughterine turns to see them slashing at each other, and Iconoclast sees her aim bolts behind them- at Argon, presumably. 

Iconoclast reaches forward, clutching his hands around her neck. She falls backwards, and he pins her to the ground as she punches his arms, shattering the bone. But his claws still dig into her neck, and the broken bones heal quickly. Buttercup's face turns red, and she gasps for breath. Iconoclast grins. "Where is Rainmaker, little Epic?" His expression becomes less gleeful, and more.... angry. "Where is your little god? Where is she?! Do you pray to her? Beg her to save you? Well today you learn that there are no gods!!! There is nothing above... except me!!!"

Suddenly the sound of static and electricity cut out, and Slaughterine fell to the ground in the corner of his vision. Iconoclast was wrenched out of his rage, and he turned to see that a throwing knife was embedded in her throat. Her sightless eyes stared upwards, and a thin trail of blood crept out of her mouth, to match the fountain gushing from her neck. Where... where had they gotten the throwing knife?

He heard footsteps behind him, and turned to see Argon standing nearby. Behind Argon, the samurai woman had risen weakly to her knees, and she held a gleaming katana in her hands. Flawless, except for the crude cross carved into the blade.

Iconoclast went ice cold, and froze as she threw the sword to Argon, him catching it easily with his telekinesis. The cross etched into the blade seemed to glow, and enlarge, becoming a blazing image in his vision. A little whimper escaped him as he rose, releasing Buttercup. Argon looked at him with hard eyes, and the sword hovered in the air, rotating to point directly at Iconoclast. 

Iconoclast felt tears begin to well in his eyes. "damnation.... damnation tear ducts.." he whispered. "I... I removed you...."

With that, Argon flicked his wrist, and the sword shot through the air like a javelin, impaling him through the stomach with a grunt. Pain exploded in him for the first time in what felt like forever, and he fell to his knees. Tears streamed down his face, and that infernal cross burned in his vision. Buttercup rose behind him, and Argon strode forward, but he barely noticed them. He felt himself change. His face reshaped, his hair changed colour, and his body shrunk back to its original form. His original face, and his original body. He felt the blade in him twist brutally as Argon worked it with his powers. Roger Moore cast his eyes downwards, and he saw a piece of shattered glass on the street, right below him. Reflected in it, for the first time in years, he saw his real face. "Do you...." He coughed, and blood came out. Buttercup walked around to his front, bruised and bloodied neck still healing, and with a growl, she ripped the sword out of him.

Roger Moore gasped in pain, and his blood covered the street. It covered the glass, and he could no longer see himself. His vision began to darken, and in the darkness he thought he saw Mary smiling down upon him. "Do you think...." He looked up at them. "Do you think Mary will... like this face?" He closed his eyes, falling forward.

And finally, Roger felt no more pain. Ever again.

8 hours ago, Heir of the Void said:

Broadly speaking, I still think we're missing important pieces about the initial arrival of humanity on Roshar. All we know from the Steele is that Humans arrived on Roshar, were 'given' Shinovar (which raises several questions about what that entailed), the Spren betrayed the Parshman in favor of Humanity, the Humans conquered Roshar, and then Desolations.

Given both the way Brandon tends to write everything (always another secret) and the nature of the story, I suspect there are several wrinkles in the story that we are not privy to. Namely, all the information we have on the events are from a Singer perspective; it would probably be interesting to see a human account of the time.

Indeed, there are many questions raised by this account. 

Were the Dawnsingers a single unified government, or a collection of primitive tribes? Who had the authority to "grant" Shinovar to the humans? Why did the Spren abandon the Dawnsingers? When did humanity begin favouring Honor over Odium? 

8 hours ago, Heir of the Void said:

So, as so aemetha said, Honor's Perpendicularity moves, but the Oathgates allow transit between the Physical and Cognitive Realms; the guardian Spren said Shallan could not transit back to Roshar because that functionality had been locked by a system administrator shorly before the death/splintering of Honor. Granted, this would require that Urithiru, or at least the Oathgates, predates humanity's arrival on Roshar, but this doesn't seem to far-fetched, considering the legends refering the the Dawncities as having been created by the Dawnsingers. There is also the following, from one of the WoK epigraphs:

This implies that Urithiru was built much more recently than the arrival of mankind, presumably after the establishment of the Silver Kingdoms and thus after the initial subjugation of the Parshmen. However, it also suggests that there is something special about the location of the Tower - it might be the location of a Shardpool of Honor, or the Honor might be Invested in the location heavily. It seems reasonable to assume that this has something to do with why the Oathgate Hub was constructed there and not somewhere else.

Well, it moves now. It's entirely possible that the location was stable back when Honor was alive.

Wow thanks for that quote- super informative. It tells us either that a) the tower and Oathgates were built by humanity long after they arrived, OR  b ) that the Oathgates predate the tower.

I also concur- it is highly possible that the Perpendicularity is NOW moving, because of Honor's death. It makes no sense in the quote, after all, to be "closer to Honor" if Honor moves. It also makes no sense, to me, to build this massive tower in unreachable mountains if it means nothing. But if the Oathgates, by some magic, are already THERE, or if you can reach it via Shadesmar via the Perpendicularity, it makes perfect sense.

It is also worth considering this in context of what we know about the Desolations. Considering humans invaded Roshar and established kingdoms, they were clearly superior in numbers or strength to the Parshmen. Odium probably drove this through subterfuge. Then the Parshmen turned to Odium, and gained Voidspren. This turned the tables, and humanity began turning to Honor. This began the First Desolation from the human perspective, and the Heralds were the leaders and kings of the ten kingdoms founded. We know the rest, pretty much.

With each desolation killing 9/10ths of the population, and the Dawnsingers not being enslaved until long afterwards (possibly during the Recreance and the imprisoning of Bar-Ado-Mishram) it seems likely to me that the Silver Kingdoms were small at first, centred around the Oathgates, with the Singers driven to the fringes of society and depleted in their own right.

It took Aharietiam and the enslavement of the Singers to really allow human expansion, and that is how Roshar came to be so densely populated by humanity 4k years later. 

"The sailors lost on an infinite sea. "

Could be a Shadesmar sea as well- and other things are lost in translation.

16 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

When you look deeper Brandon's books have a fairly disturbing perception of morality and justice.  They're incredibly focused on the here and now ("always the next step"), and emphasize forgiveness and redemption arcs to an almost absurd degree.  There doesn't appear to be any moral threshold that can't be later excused as long as the redeemed character feels bad about their prior actions and tries better from that point onward.

Dalinar is a mass-murderer who genocided an entire city, Szeth has the blood of countless victims on his hands, Wayne murdered that shopkeeper, Sadeas' death was seen as a tragic loss by Dalinar, Amaram was extended the olive branch yet again by Dalinar in the Thaylen City battle.  I believe forgiveness is incredibly important, but the concepts of penance or restitution or seemingly any consequence for past evils seem completely ignored.

Perhaps this is laying the seeds to a future moral clash between Kaladin and his brethren.  If Szeth reveals what has been occurring in Taravangian's hospitals, and someone discovers that Mr.T was behind the murder of Eth for the Honorblade does Dalinar still try to forgive Mr.T and recruit him back to the light?  That seems to fit the pattern so far.

I agree to a large degree. Szeth can hide behind his "well.. honour! I am Truthless! I am so guilty!" but ultimately he chose his own sense of honour over the lives of thouuuusands of people. He had the choice between becoming an "unholy, blasphemous, damned honourless wretch" and murdering many people and he chose to murder many people.

Dalinar is a bit more forgivable. While he accepted responsibility for his crimes, the Thrill is a real force, and definitely affected him. With Rathalas, he lost his temper to the Thrill over a whole day, and in the end intended to let most people escape the city. He talked tough but he INTENDED not to kill most of the civilians. It was Sadeas that trapped everyone. Not excusing him, but he was under a magical malevolent influence when he made a lot of these bad decisions.

But, as Andy92 said, it is about people being willing to change and redeem themselves. And in an end-of-the-world situation, we can't waste time putting Szeth and Dalinar on trial. In addition, I question societies' view on crime and punishment sometimes- what is the purpose of punishment? Why put people on trial, then fine them or put them in jail?
Well obviously to deter that behaviour, and also to stop them doing it again, to protect society. Also to rehabilitate them as part of this, so they don't re-offend. But also, obviously, for revenge, to punish them for punishment's sake. Why do this? What purpose does vengeance serve?

Szeth is a "good guy" now, and will not slaughter anyone anymore, and Dalinar has reformed himself and become the champion of light. So neither of these characters present a danger to society, and will not "re-offend". At the moment, no purpose is really served by punishing these characters that admittedly deserve punishment.  

I was reading a thread the other day- Regarding the Secret That Broke The Knights Radiant and the topic of the various ethnic groups of Rosharans came up. 

@Heir of the Void wrote this interesting post to cap off the discussion, and it got me thinking. 

On 06/12/2017 at 0:09 PM, Heir of the Void said:

I'd be shocked if that were the case - human evolution in our world has been a fair bit slower, with a few isolated exceptions - and it would also require fairly strong selective pressures that also vary widely between regions. 

The theory that different nations/tribes/warbands/whatevers of humans settled in a series of waves moving out from (presumably) Shinovar would make more sense to me. For example, the arrangement of skin tones makes no sense if you assume it evolved in place. To Wit:

• Skin tone is an adaptation to sunlight intensity - more sunlight requires more melanin to protect the skin, while less sunlight requires less melanin to allow proper synthesis of vitamin D. 
• Accordingly, (natural, native) skin tones on Earth are mostly a gradient darkest near the equator and lighter further away
• Roshar (probably south of the equator, so reverse the Earth expectation) is in fact all over the place. The (light?) tan Alethi are right next to the blue Natan and the Irish-esque Vedens; the Vedens are fairly close to the (dark?) tan Makabaki, with the pale Shin next to them. The pale/blond Iri are immediately north of the Makabaki, with the (brown?) Reshi at the furthest north.

Granted, this could be a result of minor admixture with the Singers inhabiting each of their respective regions, with the Shin representing the original purestrain humans who came from the original world, though that raises other questions, largely related to the lack of obvious Listener traits in the majority of (still-differentiated) Rosharan human nations. The more plausible scenario seems to be that several distinction groups of humans - probably ten groups corresponding to the ten Silver Kingdoms - escaped the original homeworld of Man. Perhaps via transition to the Cognitive Realm, which might offer refuge from a Physical catastrophe. From there, they transitioned to Roshar, set up their own subdivisions of Shinover, and eventually left to divide the entire continent between themselves.

If the Oathgates either predate mankind's arrival or were all created while humans were limited to Shinovar, it could explain the pattern of division, with each tribe claiming one of the Oathgates and the territory beyond after subjugating the Parshmen.

I agree with these ideas, broadly. The best way to explain the bizarre spread of human ethnic groups across Roshar in my mind is if they based their expansion on the Oathgates. That represents the ten silver kingdoms and the ten major ethnic-culture groups of Roshar.

Expanding on this- we know Honor had a Perpendicularity, but it was lost when he died. What if Honor's Perpendicularity WAS based roughly at the site of Urithiru? Cultivation's Perpendicularity is in high mountains as well (the Horneater Peaks). The best way to get between worlds is through Shadesmar, so if a large population of humans transported into Shadesmar to escape the destruction of their planet, they could walk or sail to Honor's Perpendicularity and then use it to enter Roshar itself. 

There are several possibilities from here:

1) Urithiru and the Oathgates were already there, and it was inhabited by the Dawnsingers. The humans negotiated with them and were thus granted Shinovar. Over time they grew restless, and used the Shinovar gate to return and conquer Urithiru, and then each group claimed one Oathgate for themselves, conquering the land around it on the other side.

2) As above, but the Shin were the first group. They were satisfied with Shinovar. But, other human groups migrated as well, possibly from even more planets, and each group claimed an Oathgate and the land on the other side.

3) Urithiru and the Oathgates were NOT there, and the refugees were led by land to Shinovar. The Oathgate was built to allow quick transportation between Shinovar and the Perpendicularity, and the ten groups spread out over land to conquer a land each for themselves, constructing Oathgates in turn, and eventually they build Urithiru. 

My main contention is that I think Honor's Perpendicularity was originally based where Urithiru is now, and that is why the Oathgates and the tower were built there. This provides a way for all ten kingdoms and ethnic groups to spread out and settle in entirely different regions, while still being linked to a single location through which to plan and coordinate in response to later Desolations.

What do you guys think?

Yeah unfortunately things really died down

It is worth noting Amaram I think- when he swallows that gem and gets possessed by that force (a Parshendi spirit I think?) his internal organs are replaced by a gemheart.

So if the dawnsingers were once human, a species-wide fusing with spren could simply grow a gemheart in place of their own hearts, as happened with Amaram. 

This does suggest to me that the parshmen used to be something else, until they formed a symbiosis with a spren and became dependent on them for sentience.

Then again, in a fantasy world like this, they could have been created wholesale out of nothing, without having an evolutionary ancestor.

Ah, fair enough.