Mimiddle04

Your scenario seems to give Szeth all the advantages he'd need and takes all of Vin's. It basically assumes it will take place on Roshar and there are multiple sources of stormlight around and no metal anywhere in sight. If it took place off Roshar (therefore no stormlight), in a city Vin was familiar with, and she had multiple vials of metals she'd probably win pretty quickly. I'm not trying to be a jerk or condescending. I hope it didn't come off that way. I just mean if you assume Szeth has enough stormlight to continuously heal himself and perform lashing and fly around you'd have to assume Vin would be keeping more than one vial of metal with her so she wouldn't run out of powers too quickly. My other thoughts were a little more specific: How did he get close enough to touch her? I might be wrong but I was under the impression you had to touch something to lash it. I'd say that really just depends where they're fighting. Almost anywhere beside the middle of an open field would have metal sources. Even the Shattered Plains are above an old city so there would be metal around, just not visible. To me the point of the question is to ask which fighter would win at their best. We've already hobbled Vin by not giving her the biggest advantage she has...Atium. True the OP didn't specify where this takes place, but if you take away metal anchors, metal objects around them, and she uses one duralium push then Szeth would slaughter her because she is just a normal human at that point and the question wouldn't be worth asking. To get the best fight though it'd have to take place in an arena that both fighters could use how they needed. One with sources of Stormlight and metal anchors and objects strewn about. As you say a lot of who wins depends on if they know anything about each other's magic before the fight begins. If they didn't have any knowledge of each other's magics it'd be over quickly because one would use their magic in a way the other wasn't prepared for. Not sure who'd do it first, but it'd happen. So going back to my point above about getting the best fight out of them, I think we have to assume they both have full knowledge of the other's abilities. This means Vin either goes for only killing blows or tries to make him heal so often he runs out of stormlight before she runs out of metals. And Szeth knows to pay attention to any metal objects around them and any metal discs she shoots at him that could open up his skull and kill him.

Not if it's his Honorblade or Nightblood. Neither of those swords disappear when they are dropped. And Nightblood might help him out if he dropped it because Nightblood would go all postal on his own. I still think any stormlight user would be trumped by atium though.

This word of Brandon explains almost your exact concerns. Q: Will Allomancy affect Shardblades? A: It cannot affect Shardblades. Well, cannot is a strong term. Things with innate Investiture are much more difficult to affect by any of the magics at all. Which is why it's very hard for Szeth to bind people or lash people whering Shardplate to the ceiling. In the same way Allomancy wouldn't be able to push on it without some help. Duralumin with a strong Push would probably do it. Q: I was just wondering if it was actually metal. A: It is metalish--it's metal enough for Allomancy to work on it.

The only problem with saying that Szeth is a more balanced fight than Kaladin is that Kaladin wins against Szeth. Also, the only way Vin doesn't win in a fight with almost anyone is if she doesn't have Atium. She can literally see the future. Szeth has to touch the person he throws into the sky, but he couldn't catch or touch Vin because she'd always know what to do. You'd have to stipulate she doesn't have the any Atium at the time to even make it a fair fight. There is a WoB out there that I used in the Shallan v. Vin discussion where Brandon says a Mistborn with Atium is extremely powerful and would be very hard to kill. It was in response to which character from the Cosmere would win in a fight I think. Last, this really should be in Cosmere with how much Mistborn it involves.

Is it the H or the N that is interchangeable? I am not contradicting but truly curious. If it's the H I was wrong about Dalinar working. If it's the N then Dalinar still does work.

To go along with what was said above letting you know what the WoB says. We've seen both Jasnah and Shallan Soulcast. If you haven't read the exert from Jasnah's PoV about how she survived the ship assassination it shows her Soulcast. Unless there are subtleties that we don't see, they seem to do it the same way. The main difference being Jasnah is much better at it.

I just realized Dalinar does work. It just looks so un-symmetrical its hard to see. The N and L are interchangeable so they're both pivoting around the I. The A's line up and then the D and R are different to keep it from being blasphemous. Gavilar still doesn't work because it has no N's. Their names do seem to be so similar though, whoever pointed out above, that they might just be named in a traditional but not holy way is likely correct.

Thank you. I don't have electronic versions so it's hard for me to find stuff like that. I never realized she said "I" I always thought she said "we." Doesn't Pattern tell Shallan all the spren who bonded Knights before were dead? Am I remembering wrong or is there another explanation. It is certainly possible even probable I don't remember right.

From your Google Doc: "So what does Sylphrena have to do with anything? She’s been very clear with Kaladin that, in the past, she has helped her Knight kill men before, and that it was the right thing to do." Do you have a page and quote where Syl says she helped HER knight kill someone? When you say her knight do you mean Kaladin or a previous Knight?

Not to mention, as far as I know you cannot Soulcast spren. I don't know of any WoB that state this but I'm going from in world context. When you soulcast you go into the cognitive realm and you find the black bead that represents the "idea" of that object and you convince it to change. But the Spren are of the cognitive realm. In my head it'd be like grabbing a person's arm in the physical realm and saying "Change into crystal." It just wouldn't work because Spren actually reside in the cognitive realm. I could be wrong, but that's how I'd see trying to Soulcast a Spren.

Something that might support this is Renarin is right about the date of the Everstorm but wrong about everyone's fate. He says they're all doomed, but he is wrong (so far). So maybe he can see the future but not everyone's specifics like date of death and all that.

The prefixes being holy because they're the prefixes to the Heralds makes sense. As Aonar Faileas said a lot of the names do have the same prefix as the Heralds and that for sure answers my question about why Shallan said Kaladin had a lighteye name. But...and I might not remember correctly, I didn't pay a lot of attention to Shallan chapters on my latest reread, but doesn't Shallan explain Holy names differently to Pattern? I thought she told him her name is considered holy because of how close it is to being a palindrome. As someone mentioned above the h is interchangeable with the n and the S keeps it from being perfect so it isn't blasphemous? As someone pointed out above Jasnah's is pretty close because of the h being interchangeable. So remove her from my list of Kohlins who don't have holy names, but the rest still don't fit. They fit lighteyed names that use Herald prefixes, but they don't fit the format for "holy names" as explained by Shallan. Again I'm not very confident in my memory, and maybe Shallan explained it differently or something else. If I'm not stating her explanation correctly please let me know.

Holy names in the religion on Roshar are names that are almost symmetrical. I have a few questions about some of the character's names. Why didn't Gavilar or Dalinar get holy names? They are the highest light eyes from a family that was prominent even before they became kings. For that matter I'm pretty sure none of their family have particularly symmetrical names. Adolin, Jasnah, Renarin, and Elhokar don't seem to be holy. What makes Kaladin's name a lighteye name? Shallan mentions his name sounds like a lighteye name.

The Parshendi aren't waiting for the prophecy, the prophecy showed when they would call the Everstorm. There is a subtle but extremely important difference. If they'd done it three days sooner from a different spot the prophecy would have counted down to 3 days sooner. It doesn't matter when, the countdown would have been accurate. Aside from what Secret Ardent Man points out, in a sarcastic and accurate way, about how at any point Sanderson could have ended the story with a few changes, I feel like this was a bad change to end the book to choose because it's actually well explained. They can't change all their people to stormform until they can all get a storm spren in a Highstorm. They can't do that until they convince everyone to change and that takes some time. They also wouldn't want to waste the Everstorm's power on hitting the Alethi while they're in their war camps because it's much more destructive out on the plains and while they don't have stone barracks to protect them.

"The Flock" is the other countries, or those countries' peoples, depending how you look at it. Alethkar was established to protect so other countries could focus on things besides war. The people of those other countries are more important than the countries themselves though. So "The Flock" that she speaks of is everyone else in the world so they don't have to focus on war and can advance society in other ways. If you want a specific answer to which countries she is talking about I'd say she meant the other Silver Kingdoms. Here is a Link to what the Silver Kingdoms are on the Wiki. But again who "The Flock" is made up of doesn't affect her metaphor. She just means in any world there are fighters, leaders, and everyone else. And the fighters are there so the "everyone elses" can flourish without having to become fighters. As stated above, "the Herdsmen" are the leaders of those other countries or peoples.

Possibly. The biggest challenge I see is that not all the visions were about him helping people. The one where he is saving a young girl and her mother he obviously can choose to save his own skin or help, and the one where he is chasing a spren around purelake is pretty easy. But what about the one when he talks to Nohodan (spelling?)? He doesn't really do anything besides listen and learn in that one. Or the one when he sees the Knights give up their Blades and Plate? He just is seeing an important thing. He doesn't do or not do anything in that one. I think it's an interesting thought but not all of the visions fit very well.

I have never seen anything saying they are. I don't even really think they are. I just had the thought while reading that they might be when some of them say things about fire and pain and all that. I would guess they're actually visions of either past or future desolations. But some of them sound like someone being tortured in hell is all.

I thought the same thing as far as some of them being Taln's thoughts or words. I didn't think he was "whining" really considering he'd been being totured for thousands of years. I also didn't think they all were from him though. Don't some of them represent Kaladin and other events that, as far as we know, Taln wouldn't have any way of knowing about? Or am I thinking of other Epigraphs? The Kaladin one I am referring to is "All is withdrawn for me. I stand against the one who saved my life. I protect the one who killed my promises. I raise my hand. The storm responds." I'm not sure who the one who saved his life is, but I am pretty sure the promise killer is the King and he raises his hand and the Syl comes back to him.

I sort of view Pattern like the depressed robot from Hitchhikers. I even read him in sort of an Alan Rickman type voice if you've ever watched the Hitchhiker movie. But he doesn't have the sarcastic depression to make him funny and charming in a weird "I want to never be you" sort of way. His character is so one note that I feel it makes him sort of boring. He does have some good insights into the Cognitive Realm, but that has nothing to do with him as a character. Any spren that can communicate with humans could have passed along that info. That being said Syl is my choice, but she's not perfect. She is more fun, both in a literal and a literature sense. But she too can get extremely annoying when she won't give up on the whole "you have to do the right thing, and the right thing has to be what I think of as right" thing. I find her sense of protection cute, for example when she tells Kaladin not to worry about the guys who beat him and strung him up because she already tripped one of them three times that day. Those scenes make me smile to myself in the same way you would if a child told you not to worry because he'll lend you his teddy bear. I guess really my problem with both of them is they're spren. The whole idea of spren is they represent an idea. Pattern= lies and Syl= honor. This means they are always going to be very one sided characters without a good grasp on depth. So I like Syl's personality better but they both get a little annoying when they can't even comprehend how others might view something. Even stubborn chull Kaladin realizes he might have been harsh on Adolin at one point.

Yeah, there are assumptions in this thread. It's just a thought of what might happen 8 books from now. The idea that anything guessed this far in advance is accurate is a long shot at best. I'm basing my guess, and this entire thread, on a couple of lines in the book and extrapolating what we know of the world so far to come up with an idea. 1. Honor said try to get Odium to choose a champion. 2. When the King is about to put Kaladin in prison they explain that Sadaeas could choose a champion to take his place and so they lost their chance to kill him. To me this shows their idea of choosing a champion is aligned with the normal meaning of the term. When they discussed the plan against Sadaeas at one point someone points out he might appoint a champion. Indicating they have a definition of choosing a champion similar to the standard definition. I think it makes more sense to take it for what it says than make jumps and come up with your own meaning. If you interpret all this differently that's cool. I'd like to read your thread on why it makes sense that choosing a champion means what you think it means. Yes, I'm guessing. They might not even take Honor's advice. Brandon could change what it means to be a champion or to choose a champion. The whole story could end before they get to that point...Anything can happen in 8000 more pages of text. I just started this thread to see if mankind chooses a champion do people think it would be Adolin over Kaladin or another option all together.

Sorry, I was quoting from memory. I see where you are coming from. I didn't take the champion thing the same way you did. Do you mean mistborn when you say based on other cosmere books? And I interpreted Honor's line about Odium having to follow certain rules to mean if you use a champion to challenge him he will have to choose one. Or he could possibly deny it and choose war again, but because he's lost so many times he would likely agree to the champion fight. If there is a way to get Odium to choose a champion I don't think it'd be by tricking him or something where his champion ended up fighting an unfair battle. I think you'd have to get him to choose one by offering one of your own. That's just how I thought of it, it doesn't mean I'm right. But that's the whole reasoning behind my post.

I explained a little above but: 1. I'm not sure who would choose. I'd guess it'd be the leaders of Humanity so Dalinar or the other Knights. 2. Honor, in his visions to Dalinar, said "force him to choose a champion." As far as we know Cultivation isn't actively fighting, but Honor still is even if he's dead. 3. The implication of the quote above is that you can do that somehow. My only guess as to how to make Odium choose one champion is to choose one champion yourself. Why would Odium choose a champion if that person had to fight an entire army? It wouldn't make sense. EDIT: SPOILERS FOR Wheel of Time. It could be something like the final battle in wheel of time where there are armies keeping each other occupied while one champion fights the big bad, or in this case the big bad's champion.

I can't think of a quote that says the good guys get a Champion. But that's how the system of Champions works. If one side chooses one you choose one. Like David and Goliath, or in AsoIaF Bran vs. That guy or Prince Oberon vs. the Mountain. When one side picks a champion it's not that guy against your entire army, that wouldn't make sense. It's implied by saying "force him to pick a champion" that Honor is trying to say "pick a champion because he's pretty much bound by the rules to pick his own." Like a couple people already said, surgeon and healer are not the same thing. Besides that if it were going to be a healer Kaladin would make more sense. He is a better fighter and would have however long to learn more before the duel. He is also most likely alive during the second arc because at one point Sanderson thought of giving him a second book but decided against it. Lift might make sense if she becomes more awesome and actually learns how to fight, but until we know more she isn't a good choice in my opinion. Taln is insane from thousands of years of torture. Also, and I have no proof of this at all, I would guess Heralds can't be champions for some reason. My main reason for guessing that is that they would have chosen a champion among themselves a long time ago and tried to end this then. I think Brandon's reason for giving him a flashback book is to explain and answer all the questions people have about the oathpact, where the heralds came from, when Odium came to Roshar, and all that stuff. It doesn't necessarily mean he'll ever be a sane person with insightful modern day POV. Dalinar is amazing at fighting, as we've seen a few times. And while stormlight will basically negate his old age, he is still old. An old guy with stormlight is still older than a young guy with stormlight. So I'd say physical ability wise, Adolin is the better choice. I'd also point out Dalinar doesn't have a Blade, and his spren won't become one for him. Unless he uses an Honorblade he isn't going to be much of a fighter. Also Adolin is basically in his prime and even Sadaeas (who was a great duelist in his day) and Dalinar admire his fighting prowess. I'd say he has a chance at being as good or better than Dalinar by the time they pick a champion. Last, about Cultivation getting a champion. It's not exactly how champions work. Each side of a fight gets to designate one. If Cultivation is a third side to the fight she might get one, but I think she'll either stay out of it or side with Honor. As far as Lift being her champion. Lift is one of the Orders of the Knights. To me, even the Orders whose spren are partially of cultivation, all Orders are of Honor. They are mimicing the Honorblades and so even the ones that aren't bonding Honor spren, like Syl, are still of Honor. Even the cryptics because lies can be honorable too. A white lie is honorable, or the lies Shallan tells when she shows people what they could be rather than what they are. Those are examples of honor. So I believe anyone who is a Knight would represent Honor.

I see where you're coming from. My counters would be: 1. Adolin doesn't have a central book, but he has a lot of POV's in both the first two books. Because he's already established as someone who gets a lot of POV, even during other character's books, it would make sense that he could be the character chosen for this fight because it wouldn't limit whose book the fight took place during. 2. I don't think being closest to Honor should play a role. I somewhat disagree that Kaladin would be closer to Honor, but that is a different conversation. The reason I really don't think it should matter is because when you're fighting for your life you need to choose the best fighter, not the one with the most Honor. As long as your champion weren't too close to Odium you'd just want him to be the best chance you had, not the most Honorable. 3. Kaladin is not the most experienced Radiant alive. If you've made it through WoR you know someone has been using her powers for at least 5 years before Kaladin even discovered his. He most likely has the most experience using them to fight, but that doesn't make him the best option either. He bested Szeth even though Szeth had more experience surgebinding. 4. If you wanted to pick the Radiant with the most experience fighting using Surgebinding you'd pick Szeth. He's likely a Skybreaker now and has been binding a lot longer than Kaladin. Again like the point above, it makes more sense to pick the best rather than the most experienced. Those could coincide or they could be different people. Not to mention there are 8 books left and Adolin could potentially be binding for years before he'd be named champion. He could easily surpass Kaladin's binding abilities over the years. In conclusion I think Adolin's fighting skill combined with a possibility he becomes a Radiant are enough to make him just as legit as Kaladin.

Anyone else think Adolin will be chosen as the Champion to challenge Odium's Champion? I would guess the common assumption is Kaladin, but I think Adolin would be a good choice too. His calling is dueling and even Kaladin admits he is truly an expert. It could even go along with the theory that he will awaken his Blade. If he awakens it and he becomes a Radiant he could then be a logical choice for the champion.