LunarFire

I have nothing useful to say  I last minute decided to read Elantris and Warbreaker in preparation/to preoccupy myself until oathbringer. I LOVED warbreaker and so this is just the cherry on top. 

I hope we see Viv! 

This is very interesting. I think the word "insane" is never really applicable but I like where you are going with all this. 

The basis of Freud's ideas of trauma comes from something terrible happening around the age of 7. Subsequently, in the current psychological DSM, if a person experiences intense trauma before the age of 7 they are likely to experience Disassociative Identity Disorder (or Multiple Personality Disorder as it was once known as). If a person experiences intense trauma after the age of 7 they are likely to experience PTSD. The reason DID develops is because the brain younger than age 7 is plastic enough to create "shards", so to speak, of their consciousness in order to protect the young child. This may result in multiple different complete personalities that in turn help the person deal with traumatic situations, and then further help them cope with the rest of their lives. Shallan most likely experienced severe trauma around age 7. 

It is clear Shallan experiences multiple personalities. She has Radiant and Veil to help her with her tasks that she feels her "host" self is unable to accomplish. One thing that happens with DID is that the "host" person may have times of their lives they have completely disassociated and cannot remember. We see that when Shallan asks Pattern if she killed her brothers; she has most likely experienced this type of disassociation, or at least knows she is capable of it. (On a personal note, I know a person I have worked that found out years later that due to trauma that forced her to disassociate- she gave birth to a child in her early teenage years and didn't remember the experience until decades later- the brain is an incredible thing). The way people "heal" from DID is they work with a therapist to integrate their personalities into their core selves, being able to live productive lives moving forward. Many people with DID explain the personalities are a benefit to their lives when they've learned to work with them instead of against them. Shallan obviously has much "illness" when it comes to her compartmentalizing of her personalities, but we also see how they are an asset to her and may help her work through many of her issues.

Sanderson has mentioned before that he uses a lot of psychology in his books (it's what draws me to them in the first place) and it would make sense he would incorporate DID. Trauma is a fascinating thing and we can see the way it plays out in both Kaladin and Shallan. 

The whole idea of Jungian Archetypes is that they show up in literature, culture, religion etc... over and over again. It makes sense Sanderson would utilize these archetypes and the idea of personas (masks) with Shallan.

I'm so glad I found this thread, I've been thinking about this A LOT.  

EDIT: I realize this is being discussed in depth in the thread. I'd like to add 1. This is a fictional character, she is not going to exactly have the diagnosis of DID, however it is interesting to look at it in this context because DID is a way people work through trauma that occured at a young age. 2. People cannot develop DID past 7 years old. I think looking at the flashbacks of Shallan from WoR under the lens of her experiencing symptoms of DID and PTSD (not speaking is one I can think of off the top of my head) gives an interesting perspective on how she's dealing with stress now. 

4 hours ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

I think the partnership between men and women necessitates a dating culture. Men need to trust their wives to act as scribes without working against him and sharing his secrets. That requires a trust that dating would create better than an arranged marriage. 

Absolutely! That's a really good point.

22 hours ago, Ammanas said:

I wonder if Brandon was inspired by his religion by the clear divide between responsibilities between men and women? From the Proclamation to the World:

By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. 

I think this really downplays the intellectual role women play in their society. I actually can't remember an implication that women are solely expected to take of the children. They are engineers, scholars, scribes, ardents, artists etc... It is actually imbedded in their religion that everyone (women included-though this may only apply to lighteyes, i'm not sure) must pick an area of interest to focus and devote their lives to. We can see this easily in Shallan. Even though she has been isolated her entire life, and her father wished to control her every moment, we don't really see much about her expectation to bear children. I remember she mentions that at some point she would be expected marry someone for a political alliance, but not that her life would then be minimized to raising children. I could have remembered incorrectly. 

On 9/29/2017 at 10:26 PM, Seerow said:

A man reading is considered a little bit more than odd/eccentric. It is something considered almost taboo by the culture. If it was just an eccintricty thing, then Storm Wardens would not have a problem learning to read/write in women's script. Instead they are basically developing their own separate language from glyphs to be able to read/write without using the alphabet that is considered actually reading/writing. That is a huge amount of hassle that nobody would bother with if it wasn't a very serious taboo. There were other things pointing towards it being a major deal as well. Consider that Dalinar/Sadeas kept Gavilar's final words hidden because they believed they indicated he had to been literate. I believe it was specifically even referred to as a "Shameful secret".

 

This isn't to say I buy into some secret untold history of the world that only women know and collude to hide from the men. But it does feed into men getting less information with less detail than women, further diluting their potential education beyond what even the lack of being able to read would be expected to enforce.

Considering how heavily involved women are in politics, it seems likely to me that there may be greater implications to this segregation of knowledge. We know there is greater negative influence on Roshar, this separation could have been specifically implanted in their society. Just a theory. 

Also, if reading were mearly "frowned upon" I would imagine Dalinar would have considered it to assist him along his path? With topics of great sensitivity we see him struggle to make sure he has chosen the correct and most loyal scribes. Considering he is not afraid to go again popular Alethi culture it would be much more convenient for him to learn letters. 

16 hours ago, Nebty said:

I always find thinking about gender roles in Alethkar fascinating, because you're right. Women have access to a whole separate realm of power than men. Men have access to scholarly knowledge, but almost always through women only (as readers and scribes). I have to agree with Jasnah, though. Even though women do have their own spheres, if I was living as an Alethi woman I'd be pissed at having my activities determined for me by gender.

Also, your observation makes me wonder what Alethi histories look like. I mean, we know that the people who write history often pay the most attention to historical figures who were a lot like themselves. That's how you get Great Men history, all about rich, powerful (often white) men. But what about Alethi historians? Would they emphasize women's roles in history over men's? Would they eschew long examinations of historical battles in favor of the history of scholarship?

And with all the gender segregation that goes on in Alethi society (activities, food, professions, even the way you worship sometimes), it's interesting that men and women interact so regularly, and with so little oversight. I mean, there seems to be some sort of casual-ish dating culture in the warcamps at least. And this is among the upper crust. I think that speaks to the high status women are afforded in Alethkar. Not equal, I don't think (there's still some baggage about that - the whole 'you'll marry who your father tells you to' thing, for one), but women have a lot more freedom than in, say, Regency England.

(I had to go back through my post to change all mentions of "Roshar" to "Alethkar", because Roshar has tons of different cultures, and many of them have different gender roles. One of the things I love most about the Stormlight Archive.)

Reflecting back in it, it is a really interesting dichotomy between Vorin conservatism between men and women (the safehand for example, which frankly seems so obnoxious to deal with), and the  culture they live in. For example: it was completely normal for Adolin to date so frequently. Also, we see during that first time Kaladin meets Adolin and he is coming to the aid of a prostitute. While he doesn't engage her himself, it's still "allowed" culturally. 

I wonder if this has to do with any outside influence on Roshar. 

I'm going through a re-read of both books before November, and I came across something really interesting in Way of Kings. 

Shallan doing some research with Jasnah and mentions the footnote of sorts, I believe it is in the context of King Galivar. The impression that I got was that the footnotes included by the women authors are something that the men in their society aren't really aware of. Commentary of text that isn't widely known. I absolutely did not catch this on my first read and the whole concept felt pretty explosive to me. Men are considered to be so important due to their place in war, however, it is women who truly hold the knowledge and the keys to the past. In fact, there are most likely SO many things that the men are not aware of that are hidden behind being unable to read, and that aren't explained by women.

As I'm writing this I'm remembering that male ardents are allowed to read. Considering most of the knowledge I hold about ardents stems from Kabsal, who we later learn is not the most trustworthy, it doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility that there is much knowledge being hidden or contained by women and ardents.

The implications of this are profound I think.  

Thoughts?

On 9/25/2017 at 2:21 PM, Captains Domon said:

My favorite love triangle is Dalinar, Navani, and Shshshssh

I laughed out loud. 

(Was this supposed to be funny?)

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

I first found this board while googling about the romances in Stormlight (specifically the possibility of Adolin-Kaladin romance, but that's another story ), and obviously found lots of threads about possible Kaladin/Adolin/Shallan love triangle, and primarily about how the idea was hated and (at least from my reading at the time) something Brandon was unlikely to do...  Imagine my surprise when Mistborn has a love triangle!  And a pretty classic one at that (girl protagonist who falls for the good guy (and prince to boot!) but is distracted from the romance by bad boy love interest.)  Why the shock that Brandon would do this again?  Or did everyone hate it and it's just hope he won't?  If anything, at least the outcome in the Stormlight triangle isn't predetermined; I'm not even finished with Well of Ascension, and I'm 99.9% sure Elend is the winner.

I actually really liked Zane's place in WoA. I think that Vin's anxiety around herself, her strength, and her relationship with Elend are warranted. She is a teenage girl with a lot of angst and some self hatred.

Perhaps because i have struggled with internal demons surrounding self-worth, I can relate to the internal conflict between choosing two men: one who is kind and partner material, and the other who appeals to my own darkness inside but is toxic. 

I'm not sure how much of WoA you have read so I don't really want to go any further on that, but I think the love triangle is a representation of Vins inner battle. Anyways.

One thing I really enjoy about Brandon Sanderson is that his books don't seem to focus on a love interest in the same way that I've encountered other fantasy writers to do. I think sometimes focusing too intently on love can reduce the women in a series to 2-dimensional characters. Personally, I think Shallan, Adolin, and Kaladin have much more important things to worry about, but also Sanderson has certainly set the stage at the end of WoR for some complications of a love triangle. 

I can't really speak for anyone else but I'm hesitant about a Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin love triangle because of how much a distraction that would be from all the super badass things that are sure to be happening. Shallan is already awkward socially, and does Kaladin really need more Lighteyes angst? 

Alright:

1. Words of Radiance

2.  Final Empire 

3. Way of Kings

4. Hero of Ages

5. Shadow of Self 

6. Well of Ascension

7. Bands of Mourning

8. Alloy of Law

BoM and AoL are at the end because I wish all the Mistborn Era 2 books had been split up differently. Maybe I'm just used to the Sanderson Epics, but I finished Alloy of Law not really knowing why I should 'care', and it was only until towards the end of Shadow of Self did I feel invested. 

I have not read Elantris or Warbreaker yet, I'm debating delving into them before my TWoK and WoR rereads before Oathbringer is officially released. 

41 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I meant more on the deep scientific aspects of things. I've never seen any fandom dig this deep into the underlying mechanism is of magic. 

Sci-fi tech sure, but not magic.

(I know you weren't talking to me but...) 

In my experience, not many authors go so deep to have something of substance to uncover this thoroughly. I'm still new to all of this but it's fairly evident considering all the people who spend so much time analyzing minute details that there is a reason for it. I've personally never been so enthralled, and it seems there is gratification coming from Sanderson for the effort. 

18 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

We asked Brandon. It's 86% of the facts that you never knew.

This is a very fortunate fandom. Looking into your comment led me down the rabbit hole for a while and I was able to clear some things up for myself I had been feeling confused about, thanks

Just now, The One Who Connects said:

It's not something I did(unless mental notes count), but you can always mark down a chapter/page/passage down for later to reread through. Something struck you as odd while reading, but you've got no clue why? Mark it down and read it again. Backstory filler scene? Probably had something worth checking out.

I think the biggest thing to getting the most out of his stories is to accept that you aren't gonna get all the references the first time through. That paranoia of "did I miss something important?" and "Is this guy a worldhopper/herald/etc..?" will detract tremendously from the experience. Save it for the rereads.

Also, check out the scenes that were dull/uninteresting the first time around. You might accidentally miss some details here and there, but you'll intentionally miss things if you always skip the slow scenes.

Lastly, do what you're doing now: Talking about stuff on here. We all learn something new from time to time, and it gives scenes new depth that they didn't have before. if you don't mind the spoiler about a certain character being a Herald, this bit is the definitive example:

  Hide contents

We later learned that this elderly Ardent actually was the Herald Paliah, walking down the shelves of the Palanaeum, which is named after her.

Thank you so much, that is very helpful. I did read the spoiler, my question is: how did you later find out who that was? Was it mentioned in the books, or is it something that was mentioned elsewhere? 

Just now, Elithanathile said:

What I try to do (and often fail) is just make sure to read everything super slowly. I tend to get really excited on the first run, and miss things. And on the second, and third, etc. There's things that I missed that were completely obvious and I only noticed from the fourth or fifth re-read. So just take it slow and think over everything.

I absolutely get too excited as well, and as much as I try I end up skipping important details. I didn't like WoK as much as WoR, but I think that was mostly because I felt like I was getting a ton of information without much context. Having completed the second book I imagine many of the details that went over my head  in the first one will make much more sense and make it for a better read. 

1 minute ago, Ammanas said:

You could use the Tor reread as a resource for both books. In depth analysis and summary for every chapter. 

http://www.tor.com/features/series/the-way-of-kings-reread-on-torcom/

Wow thank you, this looks perfect. 

Hello!

I just completed WoR and was blown away (of course). I'm feeling very fortunate that this place exists; I'm finding it impossible to get this world out of my head. I'm currently in school and I work full time so obviously it is the best time for me to immediately jump back in and begin my first re-read of WoK! 

This may sound like a weird question, but is there a strategy you employ while re-reading to get the most out of the books? It is clear from browsing different forums that there are so many details I have missed, and before the next book comes out I am hoping to feel more 'prepared' so to speak. 

Any sort of advice would be appreciated

Thanks guys!

I'm going to wait some time before I get into another one because I literally will not sleep until I finish it

Hello all!

New to the community, I recently devoured the Mistborn Trilogy in about 4 days. It was amazing and I fell in love with the universe. 

Now I come needing advice: I have a difficult time once I find an author that I really like because I become so into the series that I initially read that I am terrified to continue on to other things.

Suggestions? What is the next series from Brandon Sanderson that I should test out? 

I know I am in good hands

Luna