the winter system

Oh, finally getting around to archiving this old beast? Figured it'd happen eventually. It's been up for almost a decade now. Press f to pay respects, ey! 

On 1/20/2021 at 11:25 PM, Aspiring Writer said:

Well, there's the fact he wanted to do a character arc that that kind of plurality fit it really well. It may have not been a point of contention about which kind he would use because he wasn't writing the character with plurality in mind and had that has more of a second priority and used the kind that fits best with what he made/had in mind. if his priority was to do more representation for the Plural community maybe he would've picked a more underrepresented version, but I don't think that was the case.

That's his responsibility as a writer? 

22 hours ago, Kyn said:

Thank you so much for the explaining about recognized and unrecognized plurality. No amount of reading can teach much as listening to real people, and I appreciate that you went out of your way to give us more information even though it can be draining to have to correct those of us who just don’t get it.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Honestly, the only thing you said that seems off to me is that quote’s premise. You’re still right about the rest, but I think what we saw with Noril suggests that people like Kaladin are institutionalized on Roshar, or at least in Alethkar. Which in no way negates how bad it would have been to have the main character example of one mental health status singled out to be subjected to the world’s usual response while the others weren’t. Especially bad for people who relate with Shallan.

You also are much better than I would be at remaining circumspect in addressing the way people are talking about this. And I have literally no personal connection to their topic beyond being a human being with my own issues and a desire to be more understanding. Brava.

I don’t get why some are suggesting a person is more dangerous for having Shallan’s mental health issues than, say, Dalinar’s long and psychopathic history of luxuriating in the Thrill. However, just because a person can function in society doesn’t mean they’re safe or they deserve power (Amaram in Oathbringer). Just because a person can’t function in society doesn’t mean they’re dangerous or incapable of wielding power well (Kaladin in RoW). Societies often reward questionable behaviors, like the way the Alethi reward aggressive warmongering and effective slaughtering

 

@the winter system excellently explains the real-world reasons this interpretation is mistaken. Many mental health conditions present differently before being acknowledged/diagnosed. And just because we might not have previously been explicitly told that Veil was a coping mechanism or that Shallan had more going on than repressed memories doesn’t mean it wasn’t already happening, and already being shown happening (if not as fleshed out at first) in-text.

You seem to be suggesting that it’s weird people are working around Shallan’s issues, yet you don’t acknowledge that far greater mental and political gymnastics were required for dealing with numerous other characters – such as to enable Dalinar to work with Sadeas. Who actually proved to be dangerous.

Please explain what it is about Shallan’s particular mental health issues that makes her dangerous in her position. And how this sets her apart as an especial danger compared to people who are “merely” power-hungry, or calculating, or any number of other “normal” traits.

It’s problematic in the extreme to suggest Nale or Ishar’s entirely different and unrelated mental health issues possibly making them too dangerous for their power means Shallan’s disparate mental health issues are likewise dangerous. Besides which, it’s even more problematic to assume that it’s their apparent insanities that made them dangerous. It’s like looking at everybody who isn’t within the reader’s definition, or acceptable radius of, normal as crazy, and conflating that with them being dangerous.

In reality, a lot of other characteristics – such as the Dark Triad of Machiavellianism, Psychopathy, and Narcissism – are highly predictive of a person being dangerous and unfit for power. Flashier mental health diagnoses like Shallan’s are not. In fact, it’s the progression of Nale (following the Law justifies any means) and Ishar (I am a god) along the Dark Triad axes that makes them, and their insanities, dangerous.

It’s explicitly only the Heralds who succumbed to the Dark Triad personality flaws who abused power to hurt untold numbers of people, even though none of the Heralds are sane.

I'm not so sure about the dark triad stuff too? Like, people with narcissistic personality disorder, an actual condition, are fine too, those are also just other people with different struggles. Like, yeah, someone with narcissism can be a jerk in ways that are encouraged by that neurodivergency and they might need to work extra hard to avoid certain harmful patterns of behavior, but they're not any less capable of good. I think trying to blame bad behaviors on inherent traits is kinda flawed by it's nature. Like, everyone makes choices and it seems to undermine the harm those actions cause by blaming it on something like that-- like, it takes away from accountability. 

But we know less about that than plural stuff, so, shrug. - Nix

On 1/14/2021 at 8:24 AM, Quick Ben said:

People seem to of intrepreted the OP wrong, at least imo.

Point she was making i believe, was up until OB, Shallan's only mental heath issue/problem was regressed memories from her childhood (which we still haven't had fully explained). Veil was just a persona, like a spy/undercover cop adopts a persona to infiltrate, whatever organisation it happens to be, but it is still just a persona not a seperate identity. Veil is not a coping mechamism for anything (up to OB), i think people forget this.

In OB Veil/Radiant take on distinct personalities, which is a distinct jump from WoK/WoR.

OP's point i believe was the fact everyone "just went along with this" and accepted it, and "worked around" it. Which as she pointed out, Shallan's position as not only a knight radiant,  but marrying into the Royal family of the Alethi as well as being very close to Dalinar who is the overall leader against the "Voidbringers", is a potentially dangerous position for some one developing that type of mental health issue to be in, and its just never addresssed, especially as i believe until RoW she has no memory of what the other personas do, and no control of when one comes to the surface.

We see in RoW others with mental health issues are just put in a dark room by the ardents, which makes the fact Shallan's issues are just accepted/ignored all the more implausible. 

The uncomfortable and weirding out part of the post, to me at least, reads that the acceptance and non addressing of the issue is what caused it not the mental health issue itself.

Returning to the OP saying Shallan could be extremely dangerous, we have evidence of a surgebinder with mental health issues being extremely dangerous, ie Nale and Ishar, so i feel the OP was unfairly "jumped on" about this.

Okay, maybe I will go into this a bit. 

Unrecognized plurality and recognized plurality manifest very differently. The symptoms are still there, but they're often recognized as shifts in mood, at least when it comes to OSDD-1b. Various headmates are still there, they just might not communicate with each other or recognize that they're separate from each other. She's not DID, she doesn't have the current gaps in memory. I think you might be underestimating how it's shown in WOR and WOK. Veil is an introject (a headmate based on an external source) that is based on "being a spy" but she wasn't nonexistent before, she just gained that identity and became more specific.  

 

Re: People being okay with it. They're likely understanding it as a Lightweaver thing, rather than a mental health thing. In addition, having her have an entire thing about being institutionalized even when people like Kaladin aren't would be really bad, representation wise. It would be a really bad experience to read and would feel -- would be -- being singled out. Those people are specifically people who can't function in society. They can. And it's actually really nice to see. I don't care about realism, I care about seeing people like me in healthy relationships and not being judged unfairly. 

Radiant killing someone is somewhat extreme, but it's not something that they all wouldn't have been willing to do. This is a setting with death and violence. Killing isn't something that's specific to her. 

- Nix

2 hours ago, Wittless said:

Care to expand? Not sure if you are saying that is you irl? if so would you mind telling me your experience?

 

That is me IRL and yes, I would mind. Google is free. 

16 hours ago, Wittless said:

Thank you for the welcome. That was somewhat my point. Shallan a character has had a severe amount of trams but I don’t believe this behavior is encouraged in real life?? More seem as an issue that needs to be dealt with. For the books sake, especially a powerful individual who has conflicting personal interests but can’t seem to own her identity. Seems exquisitely dangerous, mentally unstable, but worst of all encouraged and normalized. 

Hello. Actually plural person here. No. 

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

So are you saying that it's possible that Formless is inside the Shallan, that's in Shallan.

Do I want to ask?

Subsystems are a thing, though I meant more along the lines of "identity blurry and the line between a headmate in a strongly different mood and an entirely different headmate isn't very solid."

On 12/28/2020 at 1:27 PM, Theoryspren said:

In the book it was made clear that Formless was actually the Shallan alter just really angry and scarrerd and that Shallan had lied to herself and tried to convice herself it was another alter but it was really just her. We get this when Veil is talking to Formless after she takes over and says something like, Shallan I know it is you, you can't hide from me I am your veil. 

As an actually plural person, it's completely possible that the statements "Formless was actually the Shallan headmate but hurt" and "Formless was a different headmate" can coexist. - Nix. 

3 hours ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Well, he has to find someone willing to read his work, sign a non-disclosure agreement, and be good enough at writing to help out. Additionally he had to get the book done in time or the fandom will exact revenge. And he has to do this with everything, I'm not surprised he only has one consultant.

That's his responsibility, especially when it comes to writing such an underrepresented minority. It was well done, considering, but it's still disapointing that he was only talking to one part of the community. Especially considering how... discoursive the plural community is. There is a LOT that you'll miss if you only take one system's. Like, although obviously everyone in the system is going to have their own opinions on stuff, the variation in opinion tends to be within a range. 

On 12/10/2020 at 3:56 AM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I’ve known quite a few people in psychology, since I’m in the therapy field. Over decades of practice, most have only met one or two people with DID. If they met any at all. It’s a very rare disorder.

I mean, we know at least a dozen different systems, five pretty closely. A bunch more than that casually. It's his job as a writer to go looking for people. Also, plurality is more than DID. See: OSDD-1a and 1b, and plenty of people who don't fit into medicalized categories. 

18 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

It looks like Shallan, Veil and Radiant wants to integrate though. That is the preference of those characters. It seems like we (potentially) have another character in the Cosmere (Bavadin) who made a different choice. 

Characters are written by people who make decisions. When it comes to sensitive topics that are unrepresented, writers need to be careful in how they portray them. The Three aren't real people, and they do not make their own choices. - Nix

Hunter’s day’s been a bit of a weird one. Not that any day is a simple one. Except maybe travelling days, those are fine. 

 

Except when they’re not. Leaf notes. What happened outside Saint Albert--

 

“Stays outside Saint Albert,” Hunter finishes out loud. She turns the corner, all the different leashes in one hand. She has to tug some of them, not naming any particular names, a bit more than the others. Okay, maybe a bit of naming names. It’s Jet. “You’re never going to let us live that down, are you.” 

Nope. 

 

There’s… rainbows everywhere. And what looks like two Epics just turning away from what could’ve been a conflict but wasn’t. Common enough experience that they recognize it just from the way the Epics are standing. 

 

Fightn’t, A.E.G.I.S. interjects. 

 

No, Leaf retorts internally, at the same time Hunter says, “No.” 

 

Fightn’t. Noun. Definition. A situation where Epics don’t fight even though they could. 

 

“No,” Hunter repeats. “Not doing this again. Focusing. Turn back or keep going?” 

 

Turn back, Leaf insists, and A.E.G.I.S. doesn’t have a response. She’s about to do that when she gets a bad feeling. Like she’s already been noticed. 

 

Ally is about to ditch this man when she notices a person with seven dogs, all different sizes. She thinks, Another Epic? No probably a normal person just walking their dogs. 

 

She starts to wonder whether she should ask the person to pet their dogs when they realize that the normal person would just comply to every demand. Humans are so the not-stand-up type. 

 

She decides to go with the first option. She walks up to the dog person and says, “Hi, can I pet your dogs?”

 

Zyth follows Rainbow Sparkles Epic over to the dog person that she’s suddenly taken interest in.

 

“Everyone wants to pet the dogs today,” Hunter grumbles. 

 

Don’t be too testy, Leaf warns. 

 

You? Thinking someone is too testy? She just thinks it, though. 

 

Ally listens as the person grumbles about how everyone wants to pet a dog. She decides to go to an alternative. 

 

“Do the dogs have names?”

 

Zyth looks from Sparkly Rainbow Epic to the dog person.

 

“It would be polite to ask their name and how they’re doing,” Zyth says, the comment directed at Rainbow Sparkly Weird Epic. He sighs, then turns to address the dog person. “Hello, what are you called?”

 

“Yeah, dogs have names. We’ve got one too,” she pulls back to keep them from bounding too energetically towards the strange Epics. Not like any Epic isn’t a bit weird. Still, the rainbow gimmick’s fun. Better than painting with blood. Or, maybe, she figures, the rainbows are secretly blood? That sounds about right. “Hunter’s usually fine. If I start complaining about that and saying it’s Pocket instead, whack me on the head real good.” 

 

Don’t just leave it at that, Leaf complains. 

 

“For not-getting-a-concussion reasons, that’s a joke.”

 

Cute dogs, Ally thinks.

 

“What do you mean by we?” she asks Hunter.

 

“You know,” she says dismissively, turning a bit to keep the pack from jumping at the rainbow one. Most of them are better trained than this, jeez. “Down, down. Do you need money? Or barter to pass through this place? We’re new in town.” 

 

Ally sighs. So much for getting a lead on the weird pronoun usage.

 

 “No, I don’t need money, I need graffiti. And rainbows,” she says. “And I don’t barter, cause i’m t-h-i-r-t-e-e-n. And to answer your q-u-e-s-t-i-o-n, no fees are r-e-q-u-i-r-e-d. Why would I need one?”

 

Zyth eyes Rainbow Sparkly Epic. “There’s no way you’re thirteen.”

 

Don’t say anything, we’re already involved too much, Leaf remarks. We should probably leave. We don’t want to get wrapped up in this. 

 

“Paranoid, much?” she says, answering both things. 

 

“How am I paranoid?” Zyth asks, confused and slightly annoyed. “That makes zero sense. Like zero.”
 

He shakes his head. “We do need to get around to full introductions.” He turns to Sparkles-Galore Epic. “What’s your name?”

 

Ally feels annoyed. Does this Epic even have eyes? 

 

“Yes I’m t-h-i-r-t-e-e-n.” Ally says to the mysterious and very paranoid Epic. “And my name would be Ally. Like Alley.”

 

“Nice to meet you, Ally,” Zyth replies. “You’re quite young for an Epic.”

 

The Epic comments on her age, giving her an odd look. How rude, she thinks.
 

 “Yes I’m very young, but there are younger epics out there.” It was true. There were like 5 year old epics out there. Most epics aged slowly after they received their power. “What ‘s your powers?”

 

Uh oh…  Zyth thinks. Didn’t plan that. Zyth pauses for a moment, then comes up with a brilliant counter. “What are your powers?”

 

“My powers are rainbow fields and spears and rainbows.” She turns to look at the dog person. “Can I please pet your dogs?”

 

“Yes, just be careful,” Hunter replies, thinking and we proceed to get even more wrapped up in things.  

 

Yes, Ally thinks. She pets a dog. It’s a mutt, of a breed that Ally can’t recognize. It looks up at her, seemingly asking for more, as she turns to the Epic that likes to avoid everything. “And what is your name?”

 

While Sparkly Epic who is actually called Ally - but Zyth prefers to think of her as Rainbow Sparkly Epic - pets the dogs, Zyth looks at Hunter, ignoring Sparkly Rainbows-and-Glitter’s question. “And what are your powers?”

 

She shrugs. 

 

“Take care of the dogs and stay alive.” It’s a noncommittal answer, one Leaf’s fond of. 

 

“Hey, what’s your name?” Ally asks the mysterious epic.
 

"That doesn't matter," Zyth replies to Sparkles-and-Rainbow Glitter Epic.

 

“Still picking one? There’s no pressure.”

 

“Ouch,” Ally says, “you’re the type that just uses their normal name?”

 

"You use your normal name, Sparkles."

 

“No such thing as a normal name.” 

“Fine, you can call me Zyth.” He glares at both of them, before turning back to Hunter. “And yes that’s my ‘normal' name. “Where were we?”

 

“Leaving, for us.” Leaf says, stepping in. Hunter grumbles just a bit, internally. Interesting conversation is so rare. 

 

What am I, chopped liver? 

 

“Why?”

 

“Some business.” 

 

“I thought you were new in town.”

“We are. That doesn’t rule out having work,” Hunter says, “We like to travel.” 

 

“Travel where? It’s not like you have many options,” Zyth replies. “Edmonton is one of the safer places.”

 

“You could say that.”

 

"I just said that, so yes I could."

 

She curtly nods like she’s made a point. 

 

Zyth sighs. "Are you a High Epic? 'Cause if you're not, we'd be safer together."

 

“We travel with the only company we need,” she says, tilting her head towards her dogs. “If you want to come with us, then you better be prepared to help.”

 

“Help me,” Ally said “help you? Sure! Rainbows and graffiti, here we come!”

 

“With food and walks and clean water and medical care. Practical things.” 

 

Don’t push it, Leaf says. 

 

We do need help. 

 

“Graffiti and rainbows are practical,” Ally tells Hunter.

 

“Those aren’t practical,” Zyth responds, “but I suppose having a more showy Epic to protect us might help.”

 

He looks at Hunter. “What do you think?”

 

“I think I’m wondering if you have a place to stay the night.” 

 

“I’m sure we can get one,” Zyth says, looking at Ally.

 

“Any place is a place to stay if you kill the owners.” Ally says darkly.

 

Zyth coughs. “I’m sorry, WHAT?!”

On 12/4/2020 at 1:47 PM, Honorless said:

Ah sorry, I usually always say something like that if I think there's the slightest chance of anything that happening, I've found it helps fend off quite a few of 'em.

One would think one of these coping mechanisms of the mind would come without caviats, just one... Nvm, my wish was probably a strong bout of I don't wanna deal with my life.

Thanks for the detailed write-up, the only term I recognize there is tulpa, I remember that because of a fanfic author I used to follow.

Yeah, fair enough! And that's understandable. The world kind of sucks sometimes, it's nice to imagine a world where you don't have to deal with that yourself. - Nix

Just popping in to say that plural people -- umbrella term for people with "multiple personalities," though that's a very outdated -- exist IRL and can read what you write about us. Not every system wants to integrate, and plenty of us live full, complete lives, unintengrated. 

"Not as much don't wanna or won't," Kokichi says, laughing just a bit nervously. "More... can't?" 

They give a cute little look. 

On 11/29/2020 at 0:20 PM, Honorless said:

Me before RoW: press heal Shallan repeatedly

Me after RoW: no, no, no! Back, back, back! I don't want Veil and Radiant to go!

Honestly, I'm not really a believer in souls or what-not. I just know it felt like there were three minds there, and as far as I'm concerned mind=person. I liked Veil. A lot! And she died! Nothing against Shallan but I want a refund on that character development! Bring Veil back!

I know a lot of people are gonna open this topic and go... wow, people on the internet are being weird again but I don't know, not being alone in one's head sounds... kinda nice?

Just because you think other people are going to be rude doesn't mean you have to say it. 

Re: It being nice. Not everyone would agree with you on that. Most systems are formed as a result of repeated trauma at a young age. (There's also usually the clause "severe" added to that, but honestly, I think that any amount of trauma is severe.) There's... disagreement about whether or not it's possible to be plural without having trauma, and by debate, I mean... Uh. Let's shove that under the bed and never look at it again. As far as we know, there's no science on it either way, so I'm going to state my Official Stance as a shrug. I think it's more likely that parogenic (also referred to as tulpamancy, but that's considered an outdated and offensive term by many because it can be cultural appropriation) have something to go off than "completely natural" systems and those who think they're natural are a mix of so-called milder trauma and parogenic. 

DID tends to involve severe memory loss from headmate to headmate. From what I've heard, that makes life significantly harder. It's a lot more than not being alone. 

(OSDD-1a, also referred to as median, has less differences between the headmates, for example, a system composed entirely of younger and older versions of the same personality. OSDD-1b involves no or less memory loss, though there tends to be emotional amnesia-- not being able to remember how you felt.)

Most of the time, in our experience, the disagreements between headmates tend to be around the level of contentious roomates. However, things can definitely spiral, just like in any relationship, and getting into a fight with a headmate is a lot worse than getting into a fight with a friend. Malicious headmates can sabotage others' relationships on purpose or hurt the body. So-called persecutors are nothing like the monsters in bad horror movies like split -- they're MUCH more likely to be detrimental to the system than anyone around them and their actions are usually coming from a place of deep hurt-- but that doesn't mean they can't be difficult to live with. Lisa's veered into that territory every now and then. There are benefits, the feeling of companionship is amazing, but just like any neurodivergence, there are advantages and disadvantages.  
Also, if anyone's here from that tumblr post, hi!

- Nix

On 11/30/2020 at 8:33 PM, Nymeros said:

Sooooo what we see with Shallan is what it actually is like for some who deal with DID? Genuinely curious but way too lazy to research.

She's not DID. She's closest to OSDD 1b. I did a thread about our reactions to it, as a system who's probably got that. 

Also, please remember that people like us are always in the room and what you say about our, frankly speaking, absolutely minuscule representation matters. 

 

"Lisa is best described as a short ranged clairvoyant, or better yet as a pericog having the ability to extrapolate an incredible wealth of inference from the smallest trace of data. She needs to have some information about the target to begin with, and her enhanced intuition fills in the gaps in her knowledge, allowing her to crack computer passwords, profile and cold read people around her, and make predictions about the most likely outcome of a given situation, among other things. She's very accurate, although not infallible. She has to consciously direct her power for what she focuses on, refocusing and starting again if she gets useless information." Copy and pasted from the wiki, since it's hard to explain, and I'm not really feeling up to 20 questions tonight. - Lisa

4 hours ago, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

https://www.healthyplace.com/blogs/dissociativeliving/2018/02/fictional-introjects-in-dissociative-identity-disorder - Lisa

 

On 11/26/2020 at 8:03 AM, LiftIRL said:

@the winter system @atarynnosaurus after seeing this post and generally reading about Shallan, i got interested and started learning more about Plural folks and what you go to- websites with definitions, some #Ownvoices youtube channels, and the likes. one of my tumblr mutuals has DID, so I already felt somewhat vugely connected tto it- it wasn't as distant as some people who can't imagine people around them being like That, but still, watching it physically was new and kind of opened my mind to new thoughts about it. It made me wonder- how does it feel to read about some-many like Shallan that can change their appearance to match their current alters? Do you find it cool, do you feel like you would like to be able to do that, or do you feel like it's a shortcut or a sugarcoat from representing a real part of the Plural existence and making it more palatable? or a mix of all of these?

 

You don't have to answer if you don't feel like it, obviously, and multiple opinions are obviously ok and expected, I was just wondering in general and also because. I know my usual answer to "What superpower would you want the most" is very affected by my neurotype (ADHD and Time Stopping) and I wondered if the idea of changing one's body and appearance would similarly appeal to people who have multiple perceptions in one body.

I definitely don't think that should be the only sort of representation, but also, god, I wish that was us. - Nix

I'd definitely not turn it down, I ~do~ miss being blonde, but I'd rather just have my own superpower back. I'm used to it, after all. - Lisa
 

Wha, huh? Can I pass? 

 

Oh, now she's all chill. Now she's curious. Kokichi's got intel, Kokichi's special, Kokichi's tots important! Which is great, they're pretty sure. They like being important and people paying attention to them, is like, well-- it's people paying attention to them! It justifies itself!

"That meeting, was it the one called by Epoch?" 

They nod, bouncing up and down. Eyes on them! 

"Yup, yup, yup! That's the one!" they say, winking. 

"Could you tell me a bit more about it?" 

Pause, everything frozen as it is. Their wide smile, their movements, they all lock up. 

Ah.

Yeah. About that.

"No!"

Their tone somehow manages to convey the precise feeling of a heart emoji. 

3 hours ago, atarynnosaurus said:

Hello!! We are also plural, and made an account here (after lurking for a while) so we could reply to this thread! (Have spoken to singlet RoW readers, and non-cosmere plurals, but it's not the same so we're super excited to have found this thread!) 

We feel almost exactly the same about Veil's integration. On the one hand, it was very beautifully done, as most Sanderson climax scenes are, and it was done with Veil's consent, she wasn't forced, so that was something, too. We also acknowledge that some systems do want to integrate some/all of their parts, and they're valid for wanting this. But we've come down, after a lot of thinking/soul-searching, on the side of this being a bad thing for Shallan, and a bad thing for plural representation as a whole in Rhythm of War. 

To us, it almost feels like a betrayal? Shallan has been plural/leaning more and more heavily obviously plural since TWOK, but it was only before RoW that Sanderson committed and said that yes, that was the intention, and that he had a beta reader on hand to help out. We were so excited! We've only recently discovered (in the last year/two years) we were plural, and Shallan has been extremely helpful in coming to terms with it and helping us feel good about it. We vibed with a lot of her interactions in this book, and it was so exciting to 1)- see her functioning and supported by Veil and Radiant 2)- in a relationship with someone who loves and accepts them for who they are!! (We've had a lot of problems dealing with relationship worry in particular, this was really important) 3)- just having plural rep that showed that no, we are not dangerous serial killers trapped in the bodies of innocent victims, we exist to support one another/help/IMPROVE the functioning of our host. 

It was all going really really well and we were so happy and excited and then...Veil integrated. It just felt like a huge slap in the face for us? I just remember thinking 'please don't take this away from us' as we read it. We paused and asked a friend who had finished if Shallan was still plural at the end of the book, and he said yes, and we cried with relief. And he was correct, and Radiant is still there, but Veil is gone. And she plans to integrate Radiant as well when she's ready and that was...very difficult to read? And we expect the full integration, if/when it happens, will be even more so. 

The problem for us, is in representation. Especially in a book series that deals so heavily with all different kinds of neurodivergence. Because none of the other ND seem to be heading towards being 'cured' or 'fixed' to complete their arc/for milestones in their journey? Kaladin's depression is still there, and, we believe, will never go away: he will simply learn coping mechanisms. Renarin is still autistic after bonding Glys/gaining healing - he's not been 'fixed' (and GOOD!!!). Teft's addiction and self-loathing weren't fixed, he just learns to cope. But Shallan. In order for Shallan to be making progress, she has to integrate. She has to be made 'normal'. She has to be 'fixed' in order to demonstrate growth. 

Integration is a valid choice for some systems. But when you only have one plural character, and you have them integrate to demonstrate growth, set alongside other characters who are developing their own coping mechanisms, it makes it seem like this is what ALL plurals should be doing/this is the only way to go. Instead of committing and showing something we NEVER see: a plural system functioning as plural, without integration, it reinforces the idea that we have to be singlet to be valid and to grow. It's hurtful, honestly. And I'm sure it reinforces the ideas of more ignorant singlet people who complained that they "just wanted Shallan" and that Adolin "deserved just one wife who he married without all these others" and they hoped Shallan would integrate because it would make their lives/Adolin's life etc easier. 

It's especially hurtful for us because we are also traumagenic, and have a headmate who has kept and protected us from bad memories. We have awareness of those memories now. We've processed and grown from them, as she gave them to us when we were in a safe place/ready for them. But she's still here. And she's still necessary, and loved, and wanted in our system. She hasn't expended all of her function/the purpose of existence now that we know about the memories. She still has them, and still holds them. And we just feel that...Shallan could have accepted awareness of her past, and taken on the awareness of the memories of what she'd done, without having to integrate Veil. Lumping them together in this moment of growth just makes it seem like...Like Veil was 'holding her back' rather than protecting her, and that she'd served her purpose, like a tool, rather than a person who loved and cared for Shallan, and had her own life and likes outside of that and it. Yeah, it hurts. We feel bad about it. Really bad  

Yeah!! Good to meet you guys! 

We're really hoping to meet more plural characters in Brandon Sanderson's work in the future, and the fact that ROW isn't the last book with Shallan's POV means that we could meet more headmates in the future, coming and going a bit, but still! It makes me wonder who Brandon Sanderson's sensitivity readers were on this, if he was including systems from across the spectrum of "wants to/doesn't want to integrate" or if he just knew about the ones who did. 

I was also a little uncertain about Formless. i was kind of hoping for a resolution along the lines of, yes, this headmate has a lot of problems and holds a lot of trauma and might even sabotage the rest of them somewhat, but is still worthy of love. Maybe even something that pointed out, yeah, headmates like that are. most dangerous to the body and the system as a whole, rather than anyone else around them. 

Hello! Nix here, host of the winter system  or the light system, depending on when you ask, we're not very decisive on names, and we just finished reading Rhythm of War-- (Probably OSDD-1b). We were wondering if there were any other systems who have opinions on Shallan as representation. 

We've been into this series for a long time and only recently came to awareness of our own plurality, about three and a half months counting, so this is really the first work of fiction depicting our situation-- we read her as an OSDD-1b system too, just because of 1. how defined the headmates are and 2. the lack of amnesia. We were really excited going through the first parts, we'd seen ourselves in her system's interactions, internal and external, but then Veil integrated to return the memories. I don't know how I feel about this. On one hand, plenty of systems do want to integrate. On the other hand, it's not the only way to exist with plurality, and we don't want to integrate. We really liked seeing what seemed to be a healthy dynamic, and the way that they functioned in a romantic relationship was really reassuring. 

I'm conflicted. Juno is just excited to have seen Lift, was looking forward to Formless being accepted into their system as their own headmate, and was "tots bummed out" that didn't happen. Lisa's not super invested, no pun intended, in the whole series, a little suspicious of Brandon Sanderson as a whole, though she also liked seeing a dynamic that reminded her of us represented. B. thinks the books didn't have enough dogs. 

What do you guys think? I don't actually know how many other plural fans there are on here, it might just be us. I hope not, though! 

And singlets, what impressions has Shallan's system given you about plurality? Have their situations changed your perspective on systems like us?