Harrycrapper

14 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

I'm not sure that it does. The only reference to Honor in the gemstone archive is this:

This doesn't necessarily mean they were in contact with Honor. They could have simply been observing things that led them to a belief that he was changing.

Although, we do know of at least one time when they were in contact because the Stormfather does say this after the revelations of the Eila Stele come out:

Regardless of whether or not they were in regular contact at that point in time, your question still stands. Why didn't Honor do anything about the Heralds shirking their responsibility and lying to the people of Roshar?

My best guess (and I admit it's a complete shot in the dark) is that maybe he and Odium had some sort of agreement that their dispute would be resolved by a proxy war between the Singers led by the Unmade and the Fused and the humans led by the Heralds and the Knights Radiant, and that they would not directly intervene. I imagine that maybe Honor eventually did something to violate this agreement and that gave Odium the opening to kill him. Could explain why the Stormfather always seems sort of non-interventionist.

I don't have the quote, but I think the Stormfather told Dalinar at some point in OB that Honor had told the Radiants they would destroy Roshar like they did Ashyn. There was also something about how he told them that instead of assuring them that they wouldn't destroy the planet like he had previous generations. 

49 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Are we allowed to just say that. “ You prove it not me”

huh

I’m gonna go and edit my other post

39 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Well the majority of people are not worthy of Bondsmith powers in any degree so if someone is worthy they need to show that, so it should be proven not assumed

I already said I'm not sure one way or the other. I was hoping someone would tell me either what they mean by "worthy" or why they believe she's unworthy. All I got was "you gotta prove what it takes" which is excessively vague. If that's all I'm going to get, I don't really think we're having a productive conversation so I guess I'll leave it here.

Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

Even more so with the powers. She is no more worthy than the Ardents that work for her.

 

You got to prove you have what it takes. I don’t believe she did if you disagree that’s your opinion. 

And thus far you have yet to prove your claim. 

35 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

She

sang a song, that’s it. There was no real work. It was something that was never tried and when she tried it it worked.

How is that an ‘elephant’

Okay she’s a decent scholar. So what, it doesn’t make her worth the title of Bondsmith

First you're not addressing the right question. It was posited "she is not worthy of the powers of a Bondsmith." I'm not entirely certain she has the title of Bondsmith, we only saw her swear the First Ideal, which doesn't explicitly make you a Knight. Like I said, this thread has been focused on her worthiness as a scholar, but being a scholar isn't what makes someone worthy to be a Bondsmith. So, what does? And why? Simply stating that she isn't doesn't make it true. 

I feel like everyone in this thread is razor focused on Anti-Voidlight and ignoring the elephant in the room - The Rhythm of War. Gavilar didn't have a sphere with Warlight in it and Raboniel didn't believe that Stormlight and Voidlight could mix. Navani was the driving force behind that discovery; she has worth as a scholar. 

I also feel that her perceived worth as a scholar has nothing to do with what was posited. Is she worthy of Bondsmith powers? The only thing I can really think of that might answer that is how her actions fit the Oaths of that Order. For example, Kaladin is extremely driven to protect people and is very effective at it, which makes him the archetypal Windrunner. So is Navani's goal in life to unite instead of divide? Offhand, I'm not sure, someone would need to do a deep dive analyzing her choices and actions. I'd say she isn't interested in dividing people at the very least. But, I can't say she's as driven to unite people as much as Dalinar is. As such, I have doubts she'll make it past the Third Ideal. 

Interludes do a number of things and it's kinda hard to explain which ones are actually important to the story without going into spoiler territory. Some just show a perspective on something important but isn't from the viewpoint of a person that is important. Some are the reverse, unimportant events from a character who will be important later. And of course important events seen by important characters also happens(i.e. Szeth in WoK). Some seemingly are unimportant events from a character who seems unimportant as well, but we can't really be sure of that until the series is complete. Like others suggest, I will also suggest reading all of them so you don't miss anything important rather than the risk of being confused by something you missed by skipping ones you don't feel interested in. I will also say that the interludes get less separated from the story the further into the series you get. 

21 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I don't understand what you mean

Quote

Questioner

Is there anything I should look at as a hint for something we haven’t figured out yet?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, that's a good question too. There are moments through the entire original trilogy that people haven't figured out yet. But they've picked out most of what they are, they just don't know why. Like they know something weird is happening, they don't know-- They haven't guessed why the weirdness is happening. The weirdness is figure-out-able, but it would be hard. But it's not outside of reason for you to figure out why these certain moments-- these moments people have not yet figured out.

This seems to be referring to the Mistborn trilogy(Brandon doesn't have any other trilogies finished in the Cosmere even now). There were certain things that were odd that an observant read could notice. The mist spirit nearly killing Elend is kind of odd when you look back on it without the knowledge in Secret History that it was Kelsier's dumb idea to do that. There's the instance where Kelsier influenced Vin's instincts that is just explained in HoA as "Vin had a strong unexplained instinct to not interact with Hoid." Also, when Vin is absorbing all of the Mists in the end, she hears what seems like Kelsier telling her about the Mists. At the point in time Brandon is answering this question(2015), I'm pretty sure he's referring to these moments that we didn't have the full story on, because we hadn't seen them from Kelsier's perspective. The questioner went in an Odium direction, but Brandon never explicitly tied those answers with his previous statement. 

I'm not saying that precludes Odium from having influence on some stuff in Mistborn, but I don't think it's to the extent one could be lead to believe if you take that WoB at face value. Especially because it's before Secret History was released. 

I think it's important to note that the second WoB is before Secret History was released, which is likely some of the background stuff he's referring to that people didn't really understand at the time. 

I believe the perspective of the Soulcaster is also important. For example, in Mistborn when someone burns A-Steal or A-Iron they see metal objects connected to themselves with blue lines. If they try hard enough, they can perceive individual pieces of metal in objects like when Wax pushes a specific part of a bullet. Most people on Roshar probably don't understand that air is really a lot of small objects instead of one planet encompassing object. But, Jasnah knows this and is able to perceive the air as pieces of oxygen which likely makes it easier to influence with Soulcasting.  

8 minutes ago, Aleph-Naught said:

Squatter's don't take property unjustly though--they "adversely possess" land that was abandoned, disused, underutilized, etc. through a ridiculous and convoluted legal process.

The "right of conquest", and underlying notions of "sovereignty" or "discovery" that comes with it, is also fraught with difficulties for reasons that have required entire dissertations; see, for example, John Thomas Juricek, English Claims in North America to 1660: A Study in Legal and Constitutional History, Ph.D. thesis, University of Chicago, 1970.

I'll be honest, there's an argument there, but I don't personally believe it and don't want to play devil's advocate on that one. 

Though, on a different note, a convoluted legal process probably sounds like fun to Nale. 

1 hour ago, HSuperLee said:

I want to point out, humans did win every desolation. Yeah, with every desolation the Singers got closer to victory, but they still lost every time. 

I mean that depends on how you define winning, I'd say it's more that they survived each desolation. And at some point they started losing more than they were able to rebuild before the next one. The question here isn't if the humans were losing, it's how they were losing with what appear to be better circumstances than the current Radiants. 

If I had to guess, I'd say the main reason humans were slowly being eradicated is because of the Singer's unique attributes that would allow them to recover from the Desolations better than humans. Singers have much more control over birth rates through regulation of mate form. Singers also mature at an earlier age than humans, so any efforts to repopulate are going to work quicker on average compared to humans. They also can switch their populace to work form to rebuild infrastructure. Humans on the other hand likely have a lengthier courting and mating process and need education/training before they'd be effective at rebuilding society. So, by the time Aharietiam happened, I'd guess the Singers outnumbered humans. While Heralds and upper tier Knights were extremely formidable, they can't fight a war with a serious disadvantage in numbers. Especially when the other side had Fused and Unmade who cancelled out the Heralds and Knights to a certain degree. 

I don't think he had a goal. I think he wanted to go taunt Rayse because he believed he was protected from anything he could do. I think Taravangian was the one who made the mistake here. First, he acted out of character and Hoid began to suspect something. He then covered it up by erasing the recent memory. I think Hoid is going to discover that fact which will lead him to figure out what happened to Rayse and who Odium is now. But, I think it will be too late to warn Dalinar that Odium is not who he thinks he is. 

I don't specifically know, but it might be due to the graphic novel sample that was also included in the US version. It's possible they weren't able to come to an agreement with whoever is publishing those in Britain and couldn't use any of the other White Sand stuff either pursuant to the contract they have with that publisher. Or they couldn't get the graphic novel sample for the aforementioned reasons and didn't want the only thing in there to be the unpublished version. The biggest loss there for you is the Taldain essay and star chart. The graphic novel can't be translated to audiobook and the unpublished version isn't the canon version, so maybe they just cut the entire section. 

Couple of things to note here. This is supposed to be Szeth's book unless Brandon decides to change it up on us again, so I'd say the Shinovar plotline will be the main one, though that doesn't necessarily mean most of the characters will end up there. Recall that Urithiru is going to be the place where the contest of champions will take place, so in the end everyone will likely converge there. I'm not saying it isn't possible for Shallan and Adolin's party to converge with Kaladin and Szeth, but it isn't guaranteed. Also, I don't recall getting the impression that Dalinar wasn't joining Kaladin and Szeth as well, he seemed pretty intent on having access to Ishar's knowledge asap. Though if Dalinar doesn't join them, it's possible after Szeth resolves his issues with his people and they find Ishar, they just take the Oathgate back to Urithiru before the contest of champions.

1 hour ago, hskeeter said:

 

Win or loose Dalinar will stay a Human.  Toadi is all about humans surviving and now ruling across multiple worlds in the cosmere.  . 

It's in the agreement he and Rayse made. If Dalinar's champion loses, he becomes a Fused. It wasn't an implied thing like "if you lose you'll serve me like the Fused do." 

I like Moelach because the deathrattles are such an interesting part of The Way of Kings and it's cool to see plotlines Brandon planned well in advance being in plain sight. 

15 hours ago, Zanarkand said:

I know that there are people who don't like this idea, but I'm almost willing to put money on the theory that the last bondsmith of the old Radiants was actually Ishar. There are too many connections between Melishi and Ishar to be coincidence.

Regardless, I agree with you that Ishar is important, maybe the most important non-diety in Rosharan history.

I could honestly see it. The Herald sometimes known as Ishi and Melishi being the same person sounds very Brandon. 

58 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Yeah he did take a rubbing of the whole text but the OP is wondering why we never got to see the how Ruin altered this part of the text, as this is rather pivotal, and wondering if Ruin just deleted this entire section.

I feel like I remember something about Ruin not being able to delete things like that wholesale, only change them. But it's been a while since I read Era 1 so I'm not 100% on that. 

9 hours ago, Firespir said:

I'm not referring to the prophecy itself, but rather to the parts of Kwaan's inscription in which he mentions something is tampering with the texts. 

I can't imagine Sazed going over these sentences, reading some force is manipulating everything and can change metalminds, and not raising an eyebrow.

Supposedly the full text of the inscription is available in the epigraphs, but in the epilogue Sazed reads a few extra lines in the last part of the metal slab. 

I was wondering if there was an explanation to why this was not referred earlier. Again even if we swap the parts Ruin editted the text above still raises a huge red flag.

How could Sazed and Tindwyl have missed it?

Those parts weren't in the version Sazed first read. IIRC, he didn't have time to read much of it on the metal slab. Marsh rushed him out of there, likely prompted by ruin, and Sazed only had his rubbing which had been altered by Ruin. 

1 hour ago, robardin said:

Hey that's pretty plausible. Except for the fact that Helaran walked around for 3+ years with at least the Blade before showing up to attack Amaram... Maybe he was just so bad at being bad that the Skybreakers couldn't get him to break a law in all that time, haha.

"So, you went to confront your father. Did you kill him with the Blade we gave you?"

"No, I just threatened him with it. And told him I had more important things to do now. Like becoming a Skybreaker!"

"*Cough* Right. Well, ah, before we let you take the next round of squire tests, there's this Iriali shoemaker we want you to visit..."

...

"So, did you find the cobbler?"

"Yeah. Nice guy. Makes shoes for kids for free."

"Did you find anything about his past? Anything illegal?"

"Well, he moved around a lot when he was younger... And at one point, he was a courier for a loan shark or something."

"That sounds bad."

"Yeah, he quit that to become a cobbler after one of his deliveries turned out to be a poisonous gift of some kind."

"Ah! That's very bad! Someone died! Did you kill him for this with your Blade?"

"What?! No! That can't have been his fault."

"Nalan thinks otherwise."

"Well then, Nalan can go kill him. Or he or my master can order me to do it, once I'm a Skybreaker squire. I'm not going to do it on my own!"

*cough*

 

Hmmm yea the timing on that doesn't quite work out. Maybe something more along the lines of a test, to see what he'd do with it. Giving Moash Blade and Plate showed Kaladin who he really was relatively quickly. 

1 minute ago, robardin said:

That also doesn't ring true... If they thought he was a Radiant of the Third Ideal of some other Order than the Skybreakers (as required for a Shardblade), Nalan would certainly have come to kill him personally.

Giving him a deadspren Shardblade to see what he would do with it as their litmus test before making that call, well that is an interesting idea. It could match both rarity of scenario with scarcity of supply (how many such Shards they'd have on hand).

Nalan isn't going to kill someone unless they've committed a crime that he can prosecute them with. He has no qualms about finding the crime with the pure intent of killing that person, but he looks for the crime first. He literally got up and walked away from Lift once she was pardoned. There are no witnesses for the events in the Davar household except Shallan, who was catatonic, and Lin who vehemently denied that he killed his wife. Helaran very well might have never committed a crime in his life, so they took a different approach than they did with someone like Ym or Lift. 

Though another possibility just occurred to me. What if the Blade and Plate were trap? They believed Helaran was bonded, but he didn't commit a crime. So they gave him the tools to commit a crime(killing Amaram) with the intent to kill him after he accomplished the deed. Two birds with one stone. 

49 minutes ago, robardin said:

TBH this part of Mraize's letter to Shallan didn't and still doesn't ring quite true.

Not just about how a deadspren Blade would be tolerated in a candidate for a Nahel bond (after all, we see both Dalinar and Elhokar forming nascent Nahel bonds while bonded with such a Blade), but why the Skybreakers would have a full set of Shards on hand, AND would give them to an acolyte to use (someone who couldn't even draw Stormlight yet, as a squire to a master, requiring the Second Ideal).

Helaran already had that Blade when he back to visit the Davar household and threatened his father with it, several years before he appeared on that battlefield to try to kill Amaram. So it wasn't something "on loan for a mission" from the Skybreakers; he had "personal use" of the Blade, if not the Plate, for some time.

We see Skybreaker acolytes working with their would-be masters and with Nalan in Edgedancer and Oathbreaker, and they are not given any such equipment, nor is any such opportunity held over them as enticement, for all that Helaran was supposedly recruited "with a display of Shards and power".

...Unless it was in the same vein as Szeth being given Nightblood by Nalan, which was even more singular (as Nightblood is beyond any ordinary Shardblade, even a living one). Hmm.

My take: either the Skybreakers had some very special regard or future plans in mind for Helaran, or Mraize is wrong about how or why he got them (either intentionally lying, or actually misled).

They knew or had suspicions that someone in the Davar household was in the process of bonding a spren. Possibly the fact that Shallan's mother died with burnt out eyes leaked out of the household or she had informed them of her suspicions. Either way, they thought that Heleran was in the process of or had bonded a Radiant spren. One way to test it would have been to have him bond a deadblade. Helaran is the only person we've seen the Skybreakers recruit that was suspected of forming a bond, that could be a standard way they test recruits of that nature. 

He was also said to have been surprised that the Heralds could break their Oath and let the Fused back into Roshar. He also said he isn't good at seeing the future. I kinda believe him considering the state Roshar was and still is in. 

On 2/18/2021 at 7:24 PM, Bejardin1250 said:

Yes 

and slightly creepy...

Honestly, if I listen to Stormlight or Mistborn audiobooks for a long enough sequential period I can hear my own thoughts in Michael Kramer's voice.