killersquirrel59

Tell me if this makes sense, but the way I figure it, the Lord Ruler shouldn't worry about anyone else managing his immortality trick through Atium alone. One would need to be able to compound 2 metals, not just one to manage. It has been established that you cannot tap a metal mind while sleeping. Once over his natural age, the Lord Ruler needed to be constantly tapping Youth from his Atium minds. Therefore, he needed to remain awake constantly to continue tapping his metal mind. The only way to manage this is to also be constantly compounding Bronze for wakefulness, which would face the same problem of diminishing returns as any Feruchemy use, needing ever more and more bronze. Not as hard to get, but notable that Atium alone will not be a viable answer to immortality. Just a random thought.

So, last year at the Words of Radiance book signing in Seattle, I asked Brandon to leave me a tidbit hint in one of my books he signed. He wrote the following: I spent a few weeks trying to puzzle this out after posting it here for the records, but eventually left it alone, waiting for more books to make things clearer. Well, Shadows of Self seems to have given me a hint as to this, and led to the beginnings of a new theory, and here it is: Trell is Odium and the mystery metal is a godmetal of Odium which I guess, following the other conventions would be called Raysium. I think that the second army Odium is trying to gather is the Kandra. Imagine how frightening an army of Kandra all armed with knowledge of Hemalurgy would be loose in the Cosmere. This could also be what is behind Brandon's cryptic hints about Hemalurgy being used to steal other, non-metallic arts and abilities. We already know there is at least one worldhopper Kandra, and I have my suspicions of more, specifically on Roshar. Furthermore, Odium is the only Shard we know has traveled after settling on a world. We know for certain he has already visited Sel at least, splintering Devotion and Dominion there. Other Shards have often been known by false deific names throughout the Cosmere. Would it not make sense for Odium to have been known as Trell sometime in Scadrial's distant past? For more evidence on this, I also cite the deep similarities between Trelagism as presented in TFE and the religion of the Purelakers in WoK. These are so eerily similar that I strongly suspect a common origin. Now, the Purelakers seem like an odd group to be devotees of Odium with their very laid-back attitudes, but I could easily see either his plans having backfired and the people having warped the faith, or him being very subtle and biding his time with them. In either case, I think they are similar enough that it makes a connection between Roshar and Scadrial via their religions. Well, that was long and rambling, but I just had to get the ideas down before they fled my leaky brain. Thoughts?

So I have a weird idea. We know that Hemalurgy, at least while the spike is in, patches and alters the user's SDNA. Well, just how much of your SDNA passes on when you breed? Does it function like physical DNA, with dominant and regressive traits passed on from both parents? If so, would breeding while pierced with a hemalurgic spike increase your chances of passing on Allomancy or Feruchemy to the child naturally (or give you a chance at all if you as the parent are non-Invested naturally)?

Wouldn't it be Sazedium, rather than Harmonium? Both Atium and Lerasium come from the Shardholder's names (Ati and Leras) not from their Shardic identities. Therefore, Sazed's should come from his real name as well. Off-topic I know, but just a thought.

I always theorized that Iron Feruchemy involved altering the pull of gravity in a localized field rather than actually physically altering the body itself. I'm no physicist, but I figured this was mostly achieved by manipulation of the self in the Cognitive realm using the Cognitive concept of weight, which then made the physical world do backflips to match.

I'll take 2! This needs to happen.

But that doesn't follow the idea of what Vin saw looking down at the planet where she specifically notes pockets of life concentrated at the poles. I could chalk it up to a mistake that was fixed if this passage was in the first book, but this passage was near the end of HoA, and Brandon made the change working out the moving of the Well and the decoupling of Magnetic North from Geographic north while writing book 2. So what was the "pocket of life" Vin saw at the North while wielding Preservation?

Something weird was occurring to me recently. I was rereading the annotations to HoA and went back over the part where Brandon said that the Final Empire was not actually at the North Pole, because The Lord Ruler did not want an abnormal day/night cycle, so he moved the Well of Ascension which caused Magnetic North to follow it, also carrying the protection of the Ferromagnetic ash clouds pulled by Scadrial's altered magnetic fields. We know that there was a whole other civilization of people on the South pole (though we don't know much about them yet), but what about the actual North Pole? That was supposedly the area where life was most inhabitable (according to Vin when she is looking down at the world after taking the Power of Preservation and notes that there are little pockets of life only sustainable at the poles). Does this then mean there was a third civilization on Scadrial at the time, one based at the geographic North Pole?

Nope, not saying it isn't of Balance, just that it's origin lies with Preservation.

I'm not contradicting the idea that Feruchemy is of balance, containing aspects of both Ruin and Preservation. Your first point from Stormlight is exactly on point. Just as Honourblades came from Honour but have aspects of both Honour and Cultivation, Feruchemy came from Preservation but has aspects of both Preservation and Ruin to it. I'm guessing the Ruin component came from the inherent part of humanity that is Ruin's. None of this invalidates my theory.

Just to counter one of your points on Hoid being a Feruchemist, we don't know how many beads were left by Rashek at the Well. There were also mysterious footprints there when Vin got there. There could well have been an additional bead of Lerasium there that Hoid snatched before Vin ever got there. We have no idea what his tracking powers might consist of. Also, on your point of Lerasium coming from inside something else like Atium comes from inside a crystal, that's still entirely possible with this theory. I never posited anything on the origins of the Lerasium itself, just on the use the Terris people put it to once they had it. I doubt it was "fire-hardened clay" though, at least not naturally. And with the WoB confirming that Feruchemy came from Preservation, I'm not sure why there is still the insistence that Ruin was involved. Feruchemy does not Ruin, at all. The same energy that would be spent in daily life is stored LONGER (thus preserved) then used to enhance or replace (thus preserving) energy of the body. If Feruchemy is of Ruin, then the very idea of physical activity of any kind is of Ruin. Preservation is not addition or creation. The fact that no outside energy is added is not an argument for Preservation or Ruin, as the addition of new energy is not within either of their Shardic Natures. Feruchemy has just as much (in many ways more) justification to be of Preservation than does Ruin.

But tapping the Mind of Preservation makes no sense if it wasn't designed to work that way. The Investiture from both Ruin and Preservation is a byproduct of their Power, not their Minds. Preservation's Mind, in any case, was trapped what was trapping Ruin in the Well, so wouldn't exactly be available to be tapped by a compounder. All in all, burning the memory permanently into one's own mind makes sense. Anything else loses the memory since the copper mind is burned away. This feels wrong for an action that is primarily derived from Preservation, even a hack.

I posted a new theory on this point, given that my post was quite long and we are already on page 2 of this thread. http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/43322-theory-origins-of-feruchemy/

I have personally always theorized that it has something to do with Lerasium. Here's how I see things: 1. Feruchemy may be end-neutral on Investiture, but its feel is far more of Preservation than Ruin. Nothing is lost, just converted. It matches the Shardic Intent far more for one than the other. Therefore, it would logically follow that its origin is from the shard whose intent it best matches. 2. The appearance of the Lerasium bead that Elend got. It was encased in ceramic. Ceramic does not occur naturally, so it was not in its natural form as is the case with the Atium geodes in the Pits of Hathsin. Someone decided to encase this bead in ceramic, but not completely, leaving the metal exposed. Why would they do this? If Lerasium only has a purpose in Allomancy, this would never be done as its only purpose is gained by ingesting it. So what magic form would use a bit of metal, encased in ceramic? Clearly not Allomancy for the reasons mentioned above. Clearly not Hemalurgy, since the bead was not sharpened to be used as a spike. This only leaves Feruchemy. Though the ceramic does not enhance its use in Feruchemy, it is at least neutral to it, whereas it would actually impede the metal's use in both Allomancy and Hemalurgy. Next, and this is pure speculation, encasing the metal in a ceramic disc feels more ritualistic than functional. Ceramic is not a particularly useful material for safeguarding something valuable, but it does have a feel of preservation about it. No material is lost in its creation, and its primary purpose (sealed jars first made of ceramic) were used to preserve other things. The Terris people worshipped and followed Preservation. I could easily see them looking at ceramic as a holy representation of the ideals thereof for ritual purposes. Encasing the beads (there were clearly others there before, as evidenced by the shattered ceramic around in that scene and the fact that the Lord Ruler passed on allomancy to his friends somehow, most likely by taking these Lerasium beads and passing them out) in ceramic would make sense from a ritual standpoint. Couple this with the fact that the Well of Ascension was some sort of holy site in Terris pre-Ascension, and it makes sense that they would keep these holy artifacts (literally the body of their god) there for ritual purposes. 3. Each god-metal can be used to originate its own form of magic. We know that Lerasium can initiate Allomancy. An Atium spike can initiate Hemalurgy by taking anything at all, inspiring great desire for more. If we assume I am correct that Feruchemy comes from Preservation primarily rather than Ruin for the purposes of this argument, it would make sense that the initiation of this magic comes directly from Lerasium in some way appropriate to the magic. 4. Allomancy was very different pre-Ascension, and notably much weaker. Specifics are not known, but I believe it was confirmed there were no Mistborn, and it might be that no one even knew really what they were doing when they were burning trace metals. Certainly Alendi (who most believe was a Seeker) did not know what he was doing when he sensed the Well of Ascension, believing this to be part of his destiny as the Hero of Ages. It would reason that if Allomancy were common knowledge at the time, that someone during his rise to power would have managed to tell him he was one. I believe that this was due to the fact that Pre-Ascension, Preservation was overconfident in his dealings with Ruin, not needing to use flashy methods (directly adding Investiture to the world by means of Allomancy), rather encouraging his own ideals through something that wouldn't drain him as much (Feruchemy). He also believed that Ruin's power was safely trapped in the Well and he had much more time to work. It was only through Rashek that this changed. Rashek, once he held Preservation's power and saw what was really going on (thinking in the far more limited human scale) wanted power to be more dramatic and obvious, thus using the power he held, redefined Allomancy, making it be far more powerful and creating the idea of Mistborn. I think that before the Ascension, no one had ever thought of the idea of Allomancy consciously, those few who were Allomancers in those days, subconsciously using trace metals as a catalyst to tap the innate bit of Preservation's power in all humans. Rashek realized the potential of the Lerasium beads at his feet when he held the Power, and thus perverted their intended use (which I will get to in just a minute), breaking their ceramic housings and eating one to become the unholy compounder he was, then giving others to his favoured followers. 5. Feruchemy was much more common pre-Ascension. In Alendi's journal, he remarks that "The Terris people" have this strange ability to store their strength for later use. This is further evidenced by the fact that Rashek and the others with Alendi, a group of common packmen, were all Feruchemists. Certainly a large percentage of the Terris people, if not all of them at the time were Feruchemists. Given these points of evidence, I surmise that the old Terris Worldbringers (assuming the Worldbringers had a role similar to priests in Terris society) were the keepers of the secrets of Feruchemy. Given Feruchemy's neutral position in the spectrum, the Lerasium should not be consumed in this process. So what activity makes sense with Feruchemy and would be suited by having a bit of the metal poking out from a ceramic housing, and could be seen as part of a religious ceremony? Just as all Feruchemy, the answer would be to touch the metal and try to tap the innate power imbued in a God Metal. I believe that should an ordinary, uninvested person try to tap the power of Lerasium as a Feruchemist taps metal minds, he will take a portion of that power into himself, catalyzing the additional power of Preservation in humanity to become a Feruchemist. Now, this would take some training to do. It makes sense that only the Terrismen, who actively worshipped Preservation, would be the ones to understand and figure this out. Elsewhere in the world, many other faiths abounded, thus clouding the truth kept by the Terrismen, whose theology was actually correct. I'm picturing a religious ceremony, likely done as a coming of age for a Terris youth, where he spends several years in mental training to learn how to tap a metal, then taking a pilgrimage to the Well of Ascension, where the leaders of the Worldbringers conduct a ceremony in which they hold out the ceramic-encased Lerasium bead for the pilgrim to tap and thus become a Feruchemist. Perhaps the ceramic even has more of a religious purpose as well. If this is the case, I could see an ideology where no one should be permitted to directly touch the Lerasium more than once, so having the Priests hold the sides of the ceramic disc would make sense there. Well, that's my theory. Questions? Comments? Snide remarks?

Compounding shouldn't really have anything to do with the intentions or views of the Shards. Don't forget that compounding is something that should not be. It is a hack to the systems created, not something that was planned and envisioned.

Exactly. He was planning out every contingency, knowing this would likely be his one and only last chance, since he would likely not be able to make it another 1000 years on his Compounding alone. He had a thousand years to plan for every possible contingency. I fully expect there were another dozen (at least) contingency plans in the works that never came up for situations that didn't happen. When you have that kind of time and resources at your disposal, you can be very thorough and redundant.

I know we don't have confirmed exactly how Feruchemical nicrosil works. However, it is listed as storing Investiture and widely accepted (at least with current evidence) that it stores it converts said Investiture into a neutral form that can be used to power other forms of Investiture that the user has available. Combining that with the rest of Feruchemy is powerful enough (let's store warmth in Brass then use that power Strength or Speed), but when combined with Allomantic nicrosil for compounding gets so unbelievably stupid as to be ridiculous, as you just generate clean Investiture tenfold out of nothing and can use that to pump up all of your other Feruchemy.

On the subject of Demoux, has anyone considered the possibility he might be a Sliver of Harmony? He could simply have been imbued with more power by Sazed after his Ascension in order to be one of his agents. Perhaps Harmony is directly keeping him young with the power of Preservation to fulfill his interests.

My reading order was Mistborn --> Elantris --> Warbreaker --> Stormlight, and I'm very glad I did it that way. If I'd started with Stormlight I wouldn't have caught a tenth of the wonderful easter eggs and Cosmere hints in it. I would never recommend Stormlight until you'd already read AT LEAST one other Cosmere thing. I think Mistborn is a wonderful start. The world is one of the most accessible and understandable, the story is very dynamic, and it sets up the idea of Shards really well before you ever get to series where you really need to know what they are.

That always seemed more like a contingency plan to me, at least from Rashek's perspective. Remember, he planned to take the power from the Well himself again when it returned. Ruin was only able to exercise any control because he was gone and Vin let it free.

It's a tough choice. On one hand, I really love the idea of being a Mistborn with Feruchemical iron as well. Imagine the potential with Allomantic steel and Allomantic iron if you can manipulate your weight. On the other hand, if you are a Feruchemist/Misting, the real choice for you is which Feruchemical metal do you most want to compound? Gold is the obvious choice, but also done to death (or more specifically, not to death since you heal too fast). However, for sheer power I'd say go with Feruchemist/Nicroburst. Compounding Feruchemical Nicrosil has disgusting potential beyond just about anything else I could think of, as you are literally creating extra investiture from nothing that can feed into anything else.

I'm with Yata on this, but for a slightly different reason. Hemalurgy is net-negative. The power you steal is always a little bit less than what was there, even before decay sets in. If there is no power manifested, there is nothing to decay and thus the power could never be net-negative.

Don't let the "Wild West" bother you. It is really just for the prologue. Most of it feels honestly more like steampunk detective genre than wild west. Plus, there are quite a few cosmere goodies you won't want to miss if you know where to look. Plus, since it has evolved into its own era with Shadows of Self and Bands of Mourning, you will want to already be familiar with the characters before reading those, and they mostly likely will have a lot of cosmere cookies for us all to munch on.

Don't be ridiculous. It's been well established that Brandon is a Slider with a near limitless supply of Bendalloy (no other possible way he could write this fast). He's just doing one per year right now to keep up the pretense of normalcy. Just watch, if ever there was a threat that he might not finish Cosmere, BAM! 30 books in one year would be hitting the publishers one after another.

Ah, but the very thing that let him keep them in control was the sheer amount of Hemalurgic spikes. More spikes meant more control over them from his perspective. He was clearly wrong as shown when Ruin just direct control, but from his perspective, he had the ace up his sleeve for controlling the Inquisitors regardless of power since he could take direct control with a hyper-powered Soothing.