Flywinged

Shallan?

I have to admit, I stole the name of this thread from someone, I'm sorry I don't remember who it was  , but I really like it.

Okay, so basically, I've wanted to make a collection of all the cool hidden things Sanderson leaves for his readers that they can only pick up on if they have read all of his previous Cosmere novels. I tried something recently in the forums where I was looking for foreshadowing that Sanderson uses, but I think that was a bad approach. I think a much better approach would be to reread all of Sanderson's works and make a collection as I find them while rereading.

What I'm proposing is to get a group of everyone on the 17th shard who wants to do a reread of all of Sanderson's books, and do it together! Kind of like a book club, except all books by Sanderson, and with people who all love the books... and we have all read the books before. And as we read through the books, would would use a google document to keep track of all the cool things we find. Anything and everything that is of interest. Foreshadowing, hints at Hoid, worldhoppers, the inner workings of the Cosmere, etc

If I can get more than just me to embark on this task, I think we could get a really in depth document showing just how crafty Mr. Sanderson is   . Plus we'd all get to meet some people who love the books we love and could share our rereading experiences. This will be my 3rd complete reread of all of Sanderson's books, and every time it happens I find more new and interesting things.

Just a little background on me (because if you want to do this, we'll all be getting to know each other), I'm currently attending Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh Pennsylvania, studying Music Performance and Astrophysics. My first experience reading Sanderson's books was Mistborn. I'm kinda a spazz and I don't like small spaces, even though I'm not claustrophobic... I'm just spatially impaired.

If you're interested, please let me know! Or if you have suggestions on how this could go smoothly, or really anything at all, go ahead and say it! I'm hoping this will be really successful and I'll be able to both meet a lot of people and discuss these books with people who love them as much as I do. And this will be a big task (reading 7 large books: Elantris, Warbreaker, The Final Empire, Well of Ascension, Hero of Ages, Way of Kings, and Words of Radiance) but I'm getting excited just thinking about it!

In Sanderson's own words:

There was something I wanted to do, and took a stab at it in the text, then backed off because I couldn’t make it work. It was important to me that Kaladin refuse to kill Szeth at the end. Kaladin is about protection, not vengeance, and once he realized that Szeth really just wanted to be killed, I wanted Kaladin to hesitate.

So I mean, in both endings, Kaladin essentially is killing Szeth, just this time he is doing it not out of vengeance.

link to where I got this http://brandonsanderson.com/three-stories-in-new-formats/

"Be yourself" or

"Live"

I'd be very interested what Nightblood would've done with a command that gave it freedom to essentially choose how it wanted to be. Would this imply that all things in the cognitive realm already have some sort of personality? The interactions of Shallan with the boat and the stick in WoR seem to indicate this.

Here are a couple I though of:

• Tin hearing aids
• Steel Magnetic levitation trains
• Steel and Iron automatic doors so the people of Scadrial can be as lazy as us
• Copper/Aluminum safes (not sure exactly how this power would manifest. Maybe just make other Allomantic powers null, and couldn't be located with steel or iron.)
• Steel-push powered guns
• I'm sure brass and zinc could be used as some sort of pharmaceutical. (I would just like to point out I spelled that correctly without spell check. I'm very proud of myself)
• Using chromium pills to drug people (I admit this is very similar to what the LR did)
• I'm sure surrounding a factory in a Bendalloy time bubble, or just using small bubbles of Bendalloy inside of certain mechanisms, can be used to speed up efficiency. So like, surrounding a computer or part of the computer in order to speed up processing power.
• Bronze binoculars or telescopes? If bronze can detect investure (It's a stretch because I have no idea if that is what it does) but potentially bronze telescopes could be used to locate other shardworlds in the Cosmere. The binoculars could just be some sort of military weapon.
• Make any sort of machine out of pewter in order to increase power
• Surround something in Cadmium in order to be more precise. Not sure how this would work, but if you could put a mechanism of a machine inside a Cadmium bubble, then what is inside could be controlled by something on the outside with much more precision. Or some chemical reactions could be controlled better because timing would not be as important because it would take place slower.

These kind of deteriorated as I kept listing them, but I think the maglev trains sound really feasible.

So I read this in another thread and it would fit perfectly here.

Kaladin: “Have you ever had to choose between two equally distasteful choices?”

Vasher (zahel):  “Every day I choose to keep breathing.”

I don't have my copy of WoR on me because I'm on vacation. If anyone could find the whole sequence for me, it would be greatly appreciated. This is kind of like that little hidden Easter Egg that also foreshadows the arrival of Nightblood in the end of WoR. (Along with Zahel mentioning he is missing someone who used to talk in his head. Or something like that. I can't remember the exact wording here either.)

When it's cold outside and you blow air onto your scarf in the hopes that it will awaken.

I think that one thing we need to consider is Szeth's intent. We don't know too much about him, but he is both good and bad. With the Oathstone, he can't do anything to stop what he is commanded. This causes him to weep while he kills, as said on the summary. I think that while Kaladin has been fighting him, he gets some bit of insight that Szeth is doing this misguidedly at least, against his will at the most. He has that moment where he wants to save the innocent, he perhaps realizes that Szeth wanted none of this, that he would rather have killed himself. Letting Szeth kill himself in the end was an act of mercy on Kaladin's part. He knew that Szeth still did the terrible things, he has fisthand experience, so he doesn't go to great lengths to save him. I think the whole death is about both characters, not just Kaladin. Szeth is able to get what he wants, an end and justice for his sins. Kaladin is able to give mercy to the innocent. It makes this all incredibly powerful.

The next book will really tell how this works out, until then, we just need to put our faith in Saderson. Just remember what Sazed told Vin about faith. If we don't hold faith in the dark times, then it has no meaning.

This is exactly how I feel. Very well worded.

Edit:

Q:  What about Kaladin getting sliced with the Shardblade and then being able to rejuvenate.

A:  That is a clue for what is going on with Szeth and his understanding of Shardblades and the Shardblade he has.

Q:  Which is an Honorblade, right?

A:  I can't say, but Szeth says in book one you can't heal a Shardblade wound with Stormlight. There are other very big but subtle discrepancies between what Szeth does and what Kaladin does.

 This is from a WoB. This sounds very reminiscent of what Brandon wrote about the change. When he said,

...as it’s an important plot point for the series that dead Shardblades cannot heal the soul, while living ones can.

Still not sure what that means because he was very vague, but it seems really important.

@Natc, I don't have my WoK copy on me at the moment. Is there anyway you could find a chapter where this occurs, and give me Tanavast's lines and chapter so I can use that? I know exactly what you're talking about, I just would like to keep the exact wording when I put it in. Thanks!

Could you clarify the "Valla" mentioned? I do not remember how that impacted the plot?

On the whole, I think I'd prefer the alternate universe where Kaladin saved Szeth. Would fit more with Kaladin's new oath.

I think I agree that Kaladin would be a better person if he had done this. However, I think Kaladin is more interesting of a character considering this is the way things panned out. I remember hearing a quote somewhere where Brandon said he only writes about interesting characters. And considering this change has sparked such a debate, I'd say it most definitely passes as interesting. At least interesting enough for us to discuss it.

Thinking more on this, I'm going to agree with this making Kaladin seem like a worse person. Or at least, not a better one.

 

He stayed his hand, not killing Szeth, but then let him die in order to get the Honorblade. That's not protecting. That's not showing mercy. It's almost greedy. It's a complete lack of valuing Szeth's life - which might be appropriate, but in that case why stay his hand?

 

Szeth had just told Kaladin he was clearly not Truthless, and didn't have to kill anymore. He wasn't a threat without the Honorblade. If this change was intended to make Kaladin seem like a better person, he should have Lashed Szeth to save him before going for the Honorblade. Showing mercy to your enemies is definitely a paladin thing to do.

 

I prefer the new version, though. Fits Kaladin being kind of a hateful jerk, even if he's working to get past it.

If I've ever said previously I thought Kaladin became a better person, then I was mistaken. I meant more along the lines of I like the characterization of each character this change makes more.

Was Kaladin the one to make the choice to let Szeth fall, or was Syl though? It is my interpretation that it was Syl, but I have not seen anyone else make that point in this thread.

I feel inclined to think that there is so much more going on here than what we first see. Also, Syl is the one that tells him to go get the blade, rather than saving Szeth. Saying "it cannot be lost". The honorblades may have something to do with ending the Desolation? We don't really know.

And this is more of a moral debate, but do you save a man committing suicide, or listen to the spren who's yet to guide you wrongly? I may be biased in saying I'd listen to the spren, but it is a question with an answer that depends on who you ask. Kaladin would just answer the question by listening to his spren. Also, when he exclaims "The Assassin", it almost seems like he is thinking of going to save Szeth, yet Syl directs him to the sword instead.

 

Let me try it like this, assuming you didn't know about this retcon would the following sentence seem in-charachter for Kaladin to you?

"Kaladin lets a man drop to his death, so he can get his hands on a powerful weapon."

So to answer your question, no, that isn't anywhere near Kaladin as a character. Luckily for us, that is not what has happened. Also, the statement is more like (at least the way I interpret the new scene), "Kaladin lets a man (who has wreaked havoc on the entire eastern world) drop to his death after a long fight with him, and follows Syl's instruction to save the falling honorblade instead of the man". And I could most definitely see Kaladin doing that.

We have no idea what Syl does or does not know. Kaladin does what Syl says, so it is difficult to judge his choice considering he put his faith in Syl and made the choice she made.

 

So why is killing him by virtue of not protecting him better? He still choose not to attempt to save Szeth. Maybe an attemp would have been pointless but that isn't a moral excuse for not even trying. I can think of two answers but can also counter both.

1. He didn't do it himself. Counter: He neither would have killed Dalinar at the end of WoK or Elhokar in WoR himself, but he still saved them, because Kaladin is not about not killing, he is about protecting, which he didn't do here.

2. Szeth wanted to die. Counter: Maybe I remember the scene wrong but didn't Kaladin just call him a coward that's unwilling to face the consequences of his action, why let him take the easy way out now?

It's "better" because Sanderson thought it was important enough to change. To me, the story is almost identical. Kaladin really didn't want to kill him, and his intent was to not kill him. And as we have seen with Sanderson, intent is very important. (I'm thinking particularly of awakening in Warbreaker).

I'm just saying I put my trust in Sanderson. I remember many threads discussing whether or not they thought it was okay that Kaladin killed Szeth shortly after WoR came out. And now this change has come, I'm sure there will be several more discussing Kaladin's decision this time. In the end, I believe will all be satisfied with his decision.

I'm not very good at stating my point... I now realize as I reread what I just wrote. Basically, I think Sanderson knows what he is doing, and the new changes fit all the characters involved personalities. I don't think he's really changed anything, he's corrected it. The whole scene just seemed a little hard to believe to me. This new version seems more appropriate, in my opinion.

I feel like a lot of people are missing the point of the change. Yes Kaladin still killed Szeth because of what he chose to do, but as he was making the decision, he was deciding not to kill him. He purposely deflected his blow to hit Szeth's hand instead of in his chest, effectively not killing him.

In the end Szeth willingly released his bond with the sword (which basically means Szeth killed himself, which he had been willing to do at that point, rather than Kaladin). Or at least that is what I'm getting from the change. Kaladin purposely missing gave Szeth the time he needed to release himself from the bond and kill himself by falling into the storm with no way to stop himself. Then Syl tells Kaladin to get the unbonded blade merely because of its importance and because Szeth has already killed himself by debonding it.

So basically what I got out of the change was:

• Kaladin chose not to kill Szeth
• This let Szeth choose to kill himself
• Syl then wanted Kaladin to make sure the honorblade was lost becuase Szeth could not rebond it in mid air, especially without having his powers anymore

In my view, this change is very good. It seems more appropriate for both characters.

@ Curiosity and natc: Added spoilers.

@natc: I'm looking for more specific situation that affect the outcome of books, as opposed to something that is more technical in nature, such as the situation you described. I'm thinking more along the lines of in WoK (If I had the book with me (I only have warbreaker on me for the next couple days), I'd go find the exact quote and put it in, so if someone could find this that would make me a happy camper) when Shallan is reflecting on her past, she something alluding to her shardblade. It is in one of her first chapters and she basically describes a shardblade exactly. Saying its long and silvery, and something about being a terrible a weapon. These are more along the foreshadowing lines I'm looking for. (Not to discount the fact that he also gives a bunch of clues about the Cosmere as a whole, just if I were to include those, this list would get really long, really fast)

Anyway, thanks everyone for suggestions so far, keep them coming!

If I find it on my next reread, or someone else finds it, I'll put it in. I also remember earlier in warbreaker, before I decided to actually do this (It's been a long time coming now), that scholar was mentioned in reference to Denth. There were also many small things in WoK. Or big thing like Shallan's shardblade. And once I get the quotes, either from myself or others, I'm going to put them in. Ahhh, this is so cool. I'm getting really excited just thinking about looking at all the quotes when this is done. If anyone finds anymore quotes, or knows the quote Mailliw73 is talking about, please don't hesitate to post it!

Normally I'm incredibly against rereading books. But with anything written by Sanderson, my opinion changes. There is just something about the way he writes that allows me to enjoy rereads as much, if not more than the first time. It might be the way he makes characters so believable and human, it might be the way every world he makes seems so real. It might be the way I can find a way to connect with almost all of his characters. Or maybe I just like the mystery of knowing he has the entire Cosmere planned out, and know close to nothing about it.
 
But what I want to focus on here, is just a collection of all the excellent foreshadowing Sanderson does in his works. I'm currently almost done with my fifth reread of Warbreaker, and I still am finding things he foreshadowed that I had never picked up on before. So as you find foreshadowed events, or reveals in your rereads, please post them here and I'll keep updating this post so there can be a collection. I wish I had more quotes to start this with, but I'm sure everyone on the forums will be eager to contribute   . I hope everyone finds this aspect of Sanderson's writing as intriguing as I do and hopefully this can turn into a pretty exhaustive list!
 
 
Basically I'm just looking for quotes or specific situations that help the reader find out what is going to happen later in the books. Not so much things that hint towards the greater Cosmere, but the outcome of the specific book or series. Please give a chapter + quote or situation so I can put them in order!
 
 
Warbreaker  

Elantris 

 
Stormlight Archive
 

WoK

WoR

 

Mistborn
 
Final Empire

Well of Ascension

Hero of Ages

When you think you're on Roshar because a woman walks by only wearing a glove on her left hand.

You know you're a Sanderfan when you write posts on the 17th Shard which are longer than your college essays.

@Edgedancer   Upvote because I like friendly discussion and you make good points.

There are a lot of points we'll probably just have to agree to disagree on. I'm glad we both agree Szeth fights like a badchull though. Plus Nightblood is equally badchull, so I'm ready for epicness next book.

Anyway, onto the topic. I read Elantris awhile ago, so I had to go back and read a couple sections. I was originally incorrect, Hrathen did not so much renounce his faith, as disagreed with those who administered his faith. (So he still believed in the principle, but disagreed with those in charge). Szeth is very similar in that regard. After he is revived, he still believes in his religion (if we can call whatever it is the Shin people do, a religion) but is out for vengeance against the leaders. Or at least that's how Nalan words it. I still stand by my decision to say Szeth and Hrathen are very similar. I could go into more detail as to why I think they are similar; Hrathen also standing by while his faith causes many to die. But I'm not sure it will do anything but spark more argument, so I'll just keep it to myself unless someone wants to hear it.

One last thing. I want to clarify that I don't condone Szeth's actions. But what makes a good character to me has nothing to do with whether or not I agree with their actions. Actually, a good character in my opinion is one that I can't predict. One that constantly leaves me guessing. That is Szeth for me. I have no idea what is going to become of him. That is why he is my favorite character. Not because I agree with his slaughter, or that somehow I try to justify what he has done, but that he is the most interesting character at this point in the series. I have no clue what he is going to do in this next book, which makes him the most appealing character at this point.

So regardless of our slight (yes, I do believe them to be slight, because I still believe basically all of his actions are wrong, I just believe no one is giving him the credit he deserves. Or people are being way too harsh on him. Doing what he did, is a testament to his will. And now hopefully he will follow himself, instead of the Shamans, or whoever told him he was Truthless) disagreements on the honor and righteousness of Szeth, even if I'm proven wrong and he really just is all around a terrible person, he would still be my favorite character.

When you go to the post-office to pick up a package containing hardcover copies of the mistborn trilogy and the man behind the counter asks if you ordered bars of metal. And then you start hysterically laughing 'cause Allomancy. Meanwhile the guy behind the counter is cracking up too because he thinks you're laughing at his terrible joke.

@Outis

Hey, no problem. We're all friends here. 

Friends talking about the best author to have ever existed.

I think you have this backwards. The "lever" in this case is sorta the hilt, not the sword tip. You're trying to stop something. Force is mass times velocity. The tip of the sword will cover an arc of a few feet while the hilt moves a foot or less, so the tip's velocity is much greater. You'll have an easier time stopping it closer to the hilt.

 Sorry, I hate to be "that guy", but Moogle has it right. The farther you are away from the fulcrum, in this case the fulcrum is at the arm sockets (is that a word? I'm going with it) of the shard-weilder, the less force is required. It's like a seesaw, if someone is heavier than you, they have to move closer to the middle because it exhibits less rotational energy. So the person wielding the blade is say three feet away from the fulcrum (that s about the length of the arm, right?) and the person catching the blade at the end is 9 feet (cause the blades are like 6 feet long, i think?). So the person catching the sword only needs 1/3 of the force the person swinging the sword is exerting to catch it. Which too me seems like a very plausible scenario, in addition to the large surface area you were speaking of, Outis.

I'm so glad so many people are voting! It's cool to see what the actual distribution is. I was under the impression it was much more skewed towards the dislike spectrum.

I also feel like I need to explain why I like Szeth in more than one paragraph. (This is in no way an attack against anyone in this thread, I just don't think I explained myself very well). [Elantris Spoilers Follow] If I can direct you over to this poll, you'll notice Hrathen is currently the most liked character in Elantris. To me, Szeth is SA archive equivalent of Hrathen. Always on the opposite of the conflict as the other main characters, following his belief, and striking to his faith. Despite the fact he thinks its wrong. (Hrathen actually does not think his faith is wrong until very near to the end of the novel) Once Hrathen came to terms with himself, and settled his internal conflict, he singlehandedly shifted the entire outcome of Elantris. Szeth is in a very similar situation.