Flywinged

I'm wondering if Zahel is going to make another appearance in this book. I'd be interested in seeing his interactions with Shallan. The Sprenblade concept reminds me a lot of the whole Nightblood thing... I wonder if he will avoid the radiants or embrace them because of that.

1 minute ago, PunSpren said:

Guys,.... this really seams like a sander-hint , much like when she wouldnt think of her shardblade........ 

Really? I just read this as she wasn't looking forward to having to use the blade. 

6 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Well, hm. Let's work through the potential causes for the afterimages real quick:

• The afterimages are a byproduct of Szeth dying and being brought back to life. This is a distinct possibility, and might very well be the answer. We've yet to see any other character go through this scenario, and I can't think of any particular counter-argument, so I'd rank this as 50% likely, though it's not the theory I want to happen.
• The afterimages are a manifestation of the powers Szeth is developing from bonding with Nightblood. We've already seen examples in the story of proto-Radiants using their powers unintentionally (I.E. Kaladin Lashing arrows to the bridge he's carrying). I can see this working the same way; that the afterimages are a part of the powers Szeth is developing, and this is a way to foreshadow them. Like the first bullet, I can't think of any particular counter-argument, but I'm also biased because I want this theory to be the case, because an assassin capable of making real or fake clones of himself could be very fun to read. I rank this at 40% likely.
• The afterimages are a result of Szeth being unsure of himself. As cool as this idea is, I don't think it's the cause, simply because a ton of people have this problem in the real world. Sure, maybe not a lot have it as bad as Szeth, but I'm sure Lift would have noticed this sort of thing at least once before during her travels. I'd put this explanation at 10% likely, as a result.

I like this! Sticking with the position I stated before, I just don't see this being a direct result of Szeth dying and being brought back. As @Yata said, I think we'd have seen some sort of similarities between Gawx and Szeth. Potentially being revived with the fabrial could have this effect? I had not considered the second point you brought up and I hadn't seen this discussed before. I would appreciate some expansion on that theory from anyone with ideas. What what a power like that be useful for? Very interesting theory @Amanuensis. I like it a lot. 

In regards to the last point, (which admittedly, I'm fully behind), I think you're addressing Szeth being unsure of himself in a very real world sense. Where the cognitive realm doesn't exist. This unsure-ness I want to attribute as a confusion between his very cognitive being and his physical body. I feel like this is a problem which much much fewer people on Roshar have. I think it is likely that Nightblood and his death/resurrection are contributing to that feeling in some way, but I can't see that as being 50% likely.

You couldn't think of a counterargument, and this isn't a solid one by any means, but aren't the heralds reborn over and over? Shouldn't Lift have seen this affect in Nale if that's the case. (That brings up my point about different forms of resurrection. Fabrial, Surge, whatever the heralds do). 

Quote

Q: Could only Lift see Szeth's afterimages?

A: Anyone sufficiently Invested can see them. Connection to the Cognitive Realm helps, too  

Also @Argent, this WoB @PallonianFire just brought us I think mostly rules out the possibility of Lift seeing something in the Spiritual realm. Obviously, since we don't really know much about the Spiritual realm, I could be dead wrong. But this seems to indicate that whatever the afterimages are, they are attributed to the cognitive realm.

edit: typos

11 hours ago, PallonianFire said:

Nalan had Nightblood in WoR and didn't show any evidence of afterimages.

 

9 minutes ago, Evenstrom said:

If Szeth has bonded or is in the process of bonding Nightblood, it could just be because Nale only held Nightblood, but hadn't bonded it.

These are both good points. But based on @PallonianFire pointed out, we can at least rule out causality due to Nightblood without any sort of bond being developed. So if these afterimages are caused by Nightblood, it would be because of a side effect of the bond and not merely holding the sword.

I would like to point out Lift has seen another proto-radiant in the form of Stump and no afterimages were seen then. Would it be appropriate to further narrow the cause of the afterimages, if they are due to Nightblood, to whatever differences there are between Nightblood's bond and the typical Nahel Bond?

 

 

I keep think an oath for Bondsmiths could be something along the lines of "I will lead those who cannot lead themselves" or " I will guide those with no direction". Something that get's across that point.

On 11/23/2016 at 1:06 PM, Pagerunner said:

I suspect that only Lift sees it, because she sees somewhat into the Cognitive Realm. As to what caused the phenomenon in the first place, his death does seem likely, as if  his Cognitive and Physical selves weren't put back together quite right, so his Cognitive self is a little out-of-sync.

This is genius. Might I add my take on this, although I'm a little late to the party here?

I think its right to speculate that only Lift can see this affect (or people with similar afflictions to her). I'm not entirely convinced his death is what is causing this specifically. I am under the impression Szeth is incredibly unsure of who he is right now. Here are a few things he says to Lift,

"The man to whom you speak can no longer distinguish what is the voice of a mad raving and what is not"

"But... who am I to say? I am mad. Then again, I think that the Herald is too. It makes me agree that the minds of men cannot be trusted. That we need something greater to follow, to guide. But not my stone... What good is seeking a greater law, when that law can be the whims of a man either stupid or ruthless?"

Warning My Own Speculation Here

Szeth for the first time is really unsure of who he is. Previously there was turmoil, but he never questioned his own actions. He always found a way to place the blame onto his captors. I think he has taken responsibility for his previous actions. If not responsibility, at least has acknowledged the inherent wrongness as the second quote I gave demonstrates. I think he has reached the point where his physical body no longer feels like home to his cognitive self. I feel this is more likely the cause of this "lag" as opposed to just some manifestation of Nightblood or the fact he was resurrected. In other words, I am under the impression Nightblood and his resurrection are not direct causes of this effect. I attribute it to the more human cause of some extreme internal turmoil between Szeth's physical, spiritual, and cognitive parts.

Feel free to poke holes at this, and thank you @Pagerunner for pointing this out!

You're thinking of Chapter 19 in WoK. The description given is

"The creature's smooth, dark-as-midnight skin reflected light like a pool of tar. It had no visible eyes and its black, knifelike teeth bristled in a head set on a sinuous, boneless neck. The six legs were slender and bent at the sides, appearing far too think to bear the weight of the fluid, inklike body" WoK Chapter 19 (Page 298 in my hardcover copy)

Based on this description, I'm not convinced these are the same creatures. Correct me if I incorrectly assumed the creature you were talking about.

Unless I'm mistaken, it seems like many people have misinterpreted your theory. I don't think you ever claimed to think Vin would or wouldn''t come back to life, merely that it the time of the first Mistborn trilogy, she was a reincarnation of some previous person, most likely nole. I very much like this theory. I'm inclined to believe its true, but as you sort of mentioned, there is no hard evidence any where other than Sanderson-esk allusion to something else going on. Upvote for you because I think this a very interesting theory that doesn't have any flaws that immediately stick out to me.

Wow. I didn't even know this site had an entertainment section.

But, yes. It's similar, but I want to keep these questions relating only to Sanderson's Cosmere novels though. Rather than general information.

Bookspren got it! Your turn now.

That's how most Thaylen people wear them, but not him. Good guess

Basically, I want to try to do a little quiz game. Someone asks a kind of obscure question, and we see who can get it without looking it up!

 

- In The Way of Kings, how does Captain Tozbek wear his Thaylen eyebrows?

Oh, so the outer part, the exoskeleton part, gets cut, but the inside of the leg doesn't? So I assume that means the parshendi's armor is cut but limbs themselves aren't? Is that a valid statement?

Why didn't the legs break then when Adolin and Dalinar cut them? Now I'm confused because I remember what you just quoted and that seems contradictory to me

I'm almost certain that it's mentioned in book that it cuts through Chasmfiend exoskeletons.

I thought it was mentioned that it only cut through the exoskeleton after the chasm fiend had died. And prior to that, it just killed the limb. I'm think specifically of the greatshell hunt when Adolin and Dalinar are cutting the legs leaving them useless. Not cut in half.

Edit: derp. I didn't even see the preious post. Upvote for saying exactly what I just said and hour before me. After all, timeliness is what we value most

Thanks everyone! That's been bugging me for awhile.

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/20511-question-about-vasherzahel/?hl=%2Bzahel+%2Bvasher

 

Check out this topic. It might help!

So I've spent the last couple hours trying to come up a reason for this so that when I posted this, it had a little more substance. I simply am wondering why the name choices "Wax" and "Wayne"? Particularly in the sense that these are both things that moons do. (Getting bigger and smaller. Spelled Wax an Wain). So my question is, was this intentional on Brandon's part as some sort of foreshadowing, or did he just like the names?

 

I personally am inclined to think this is some sort of foreshadowing... but at the same time, he might of just heard someone talking about the moon and thought, "Hey, Wax, and Wayne. That sounds like a good duo!"

I want to say this is Taravangian... But I also did not understand half the words you used

So, I personally strongly dislike the new ending.  Here are some reasons:

 

• It doesn't really make sense.  In the original ending Kaladin was surprised that Szeth didn't block; and so it makes sense for him to continue the stroke.  In the fury of the battle it is just unrealistic for a fighter to change their strike because they perceive a sudden change in the person they are fighting.  In the changed version, Kaladin still does not know that Szeth had severed his bond with the sword, and thus it is just stupid to not deal with a serious threat.  It isn't pity to leave a rabid dog alive, who is currently a major threat to others, and has just tried to kill one of the most honorable people you know, and has killed loads of other people; it is stupidity.
• Retconning is a bad habit.  Yes, the cosmere is Brandon's world.  But it is also our world.  By giving us these books, we become a part of that world, and those parts that we have shared are no longer merely Brandon's.  By changing the world he is disenfranchising us from our shared experience.  He is, in essence, saying "We did not share that scene together."  I seriously hope this does not happen again.  (I'm not talking about changing mistakes or typos.  I'm talking about changing fundamental actions.)
• Brandon's reasons for the change are, frankly, lame.  He could have easily, in future books, emphasized that dead shardblades, or even honorblades, cannot heal souls, while living ones can.  He says that Szeth is now killed by the storm, not Kaladin, but (as many have already pointed out) this is false.  Kaladin lets him fall to his death--which is much more dishonorable than dealing with a threat.  Perhaps, in hindsight, it is the right logical move, because the honorblade is very important.  But then this goes against Brandon's purpose in having Kaladin be all about protecting.  This ending just does not convey what Brandon was trying to get across--it does the opposite.  In the original ending, it made sense to me that someone who is about protecting still must kill.  That is an important principle.

 

First, +1 to you for bringing up good points.

 

To your first point, I don't think either of the versions specifically mention him being surprised. Obviously he was in both cases, because who would just allow themselves to be stabbed. Also text from the altered version,

 

• Get that sword! Syl sent to Kaladin, a mental shout. Grab it.
• “The assassin!”
• He has released the bond. He’s nothing without that sword!

Syl tells him that he released the bond. So Kaladin knows he is no longer a threat, to him at least. So again, Kaladin realizes Szeth is now nothing, and he has made his choice to die. It's a moral debate at this point whether or not he should've saved him. I think it fits Kaladin chose not to. Actually, in a way, letting him die is a way of saving Szeth from himself.

 

To your second point, I agree. But at this point, It's happened once (Twice if you count him changing Elatris in order to actually make sense. But to me that is more of just keeping the story but fixing the map to look what he had already envisioned. And one change in 20 books sounds great to me. In addition, Sanderson has had these characters in his head for years. Twenty-something years if I'm not mistaken. If he says the previous scene was not how it should of happened, we really have no room to argue with him. I'm just glad he changed it now instead of letting it haunt him for the rest of the series. Also, now I feel like I have a second story. One that no one else who gets the book from now on will be able to enjoy. Now as I read later books I'll be able to understand why he made these changes, which people have not read this version wont understand.

 

As for the last point, he said he was sad he was losing that point. By changing it he said he was taking away that point, which means now he is going to have to emphasize this point. But good thing for us, now we'll be looking out for that  . Also, physically, Szeth is killed by the storm, mentally he is killed by himself, and the reason this was allowed to happen was Kaladin who acted because of Syl.. So there are many people and things who are contributing to Szeth's "death".

 

 

I need to stop posting in this thread because of I have strong opinions on this (I'm in no way telling anyone thinking differently you are wrong, these are just my interpretations and thoughts), but as a final point, how would you view this change if it had happened the other way around? If originally Kaladin had chose against killing Szeth and stabbing is hand and then it was changed to him killing him out of vengeance?

Wow. Good catch. I also wonder about his wording. "For most, no." Does that mean that there are going to be very few live shardblades in this series? And a majority of them will just come from the old radiants?

Oh, you are so right. I was completely ignoring visions. If there was a facepalm face, I would be using it right now. Instead, I'll just have to settle with   for now.

Yes, but Nightblood was not in TWoK. This question was before WoR was released.

 

 

3. Is there any ramifications to the holder of a shard blade for using a blade in a manner that it wasn't intended? 

Depends on the type of Shardblade. (You have seen three different kinds in TWoK.) For most, no. For some, most certainly.

 

This is from Brandon answering our questions a couple years ago

 

 

 

-I'm curious, what are the three types of shardblades we see in TWoK? I figure the ones that are traded (The dead spren) are one. And we see A lot of those.

-Honor blades, which Szeth has, and I assume Taln has at the end are another type.

-And the third type would have to be a live spren boned with a person... And if I'm not mistaken, we do not see that type in TWoK. Am I missing something? Or do we have to look for the radiant in TWoK?

I want to say Kaladin or Syl.