teknopathetic

3 hours ago, therunner said:

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Well, BAM may not be Team Honor, but that does not mean she is Team Odium.

Herald breaking would start Desolation, and let Odium play active role on Roshar, something BAM might be against.

 

Agreed. BAM may have liked her autonomy. Seeing as some of the other unmade are actively opposing Odium, BAM might be on that side of the fence as well. 

Edit: I wasnt sure if i should put pre-release chapters in spoilers but I thought that sounded safer. 

Possible New Suspect for StormFaker?

Stormlight 5 Shallan Preview Chapters

3 hours ago, Isilel said:

@teknopathetic, Thank you for this exhaustive summary!  Some thoughts:

Are Sho Del actually described as having 6 limbs in Dragonsteel? Because I remember wondering about it whenever I read fighting scenes with them, where they never used more than 2 hands/arms. Likewise, all it takes for the Lord of War to disguise himself as one of them is wearing armour with concealing helmet. They do, of course, have 4 arms in canon after TLM and Yumi.

Are dragons Fain, given their human form? Or are they something in-between? Maybe an intended bridge between the 2 ecologies?

I also find it interesting that unlike in  the few chapters of Liar of Partinel that have been made public, Fain ecology doesn't seem to be invasive or transformative.

Regarding Adsen's charm, isn't it more likely that it contains a bit of tamu-kek than that the fain wood itself allows one to hear mental communication? 

 

Six Limbs: 

The legends all say that Xeth made his creations have an extra set of limbs, so I believe they must have 6. Though I agree the extra limbs dont seem to be used well in the combat descriptions. 

"Xeth the Black saw his brother’s creations and scoffed. He saw no point in them. Xeth, however, always found joy in spiting Oreon. So, in order to mock his elder brother, he too created a race of beings, but his creations were flawed. They were of pure white skin and had an extra set of limbs"

or

"Xeth the Black heard of this and was jealous. He too wanted the fol- lowing of man, for he was a loathsome and vile beast who had the love of no creature, despite his beauty and power. However, he knew he had not the strength of the great creator Oreon, so he went to the one known as the Mother of the World, Slonis, and begged her help, lying to her, saying he wanted to present Oreon with a gift. Together the two gods created a race, but their power was not equal to that of Oreon, and this race of man was flawed. Its skin was white and did not tan, and it had the wrong number of arms, four instead of two"

Brandon doesnt seem to describe Sho Del limbs though:

"The strange man frowned, dropping his bow to the ground. Except, he wasn’t a man. Jerick’s eyes opened wide as he realized the servant’s face had changed along with his bearing. It looked something like that of a human—two eyes, a firm nose, and delicate features. Except the servant’s face was a pale white, the color of bone, and his eyes were pure black. A Sho Del. Fain"

or

"The Sho Del assassin stood quietly beside the tent, just a few feet away from Jerick. The creature had lowered the hood of its cloak, revealing a white, almost human-like head that stared at Rodis with solemn black eyes. Long ivory wisps covered its scalp, blowing freely in the wind. The creature’s face was expressionless as it dropped the bow, drew a thin-bladed sword, then rushed toward the king."

or
 

"jerick shook his head, pulling himself into the present. The Sho Del wore a tight-fitting pair of green leggings and shirt, its bone-white arms sticking out of short sleeves. It held a gleaming bronze sword in its hand, and it was running toward the king"

So it is really under described. I am not sure how shoulders would even function if there were two sets. Maybe the extra arms are only semi functional? 

-----

Dragons and Fain:
Brandon has said elsewhere that dragons are fain. I took them to be fain as well since they have dragonsteel and 6 limbs. 
 

Questioner

Further, how relevant to this is [it] that if you count four legs plus two wings, dragons have six limbs?

Brandon Sanderson

Yep, that is the exact correlation that I would like you to draw! Dragons are fain, if you're wondering. If that's what the question is, yes, dragons are fain.

----

The Charm

Totally possible that the charm has bone. However, it is described as being wood, so that is all we have to go with.  Seeing that Jerrick may have gotten some powers from "the source of power" in his home town, which is likely that weird Fainish tree, there is room here that fain trees might do something. But you are correct I think and this could also just be an unreliable narrator not knowing there was fain stuff in the wood. 

Since the Sho Del lore may be more canon than other elements, I thought it could be interesting to compile everything we learned here: 

Quote

Shardcast Interview (Jan. 23, 2021)

Brandon Sanderson

 [Dragonsteel Prime] Basically there's not a whole lot that's canon in that anymore. The Sho Del are, the dragons are, and the Tamu Keks are. But all the Hoid stuff is not really canon anymore. He'll get a completely new book backstory. 

1. Sho Del Biology 
   1. The Sho Del are primarily white in colouration
   2. They have 6 limbs: four arms and two legs
   3. They have black eyes (among the few described)
   4. They have  hair-like parts described as grassy strands
   5. They refer to their "hair" as a mane and can curl/move according to emotion
   6. Their blood is white and milky
   7. Their bones/hearts are a mixture of dragonsteel axi, calcium, and and carbon
   8. Their bones/hearts are known as Tamu Keks to humans
   9. Tamu Keks are describes are realeasing something like Spiritual Energy not unlike metalic radiation (by Frost so probably true)
   10. There appear to be at least two genders: Female (a daughter) and Male ( a father)
   11. Females can spend years having children (described as being bedridden for 20 years having kids but is a possible hyperbole)
   12. Adulthood must be induced via the use of dragonsteel (unclear if pure or as a mixture) 
       1. This dragonsteel substance is referred to as Ana Ku Mae (likely pure dragonsteel)
       2. Adulthood is not possible if a Sho Del waits too long. This dreaded status is known as a Sha La Men Ves and is becomming more common as Sho Del struggle to collect an ample supply of Ana Ku Mae
           
2. Fainlife Flora and Fauna
   • There are Animals in the Sho Del continent of U Poni Sho Del 
     • Sho Del warriors have animal mounts (real? illusions?)
       • "These beasts Jerick had never seen before were jumping through the air, traveling the vast distance between the Sho Del and human plateaus. They were large and reptilian, with four small legs in the front and two enormous ones at the back, legs powerful enough to jump even the fifty-foot chasm. Each beast bore a Sho Del on its back"
       • The Lord fo the War rides one at one point, making me think these beasts do exist in small numbers at leas
         • "the monster reined its beast in and paused, looking at his fleeing opponents. His face seemed to pause on Jerick, staring at him, though no eyes were visible beneath the dark helm"
            
     1. Sho Del animals might sometimes enter normal areas
        • A lizard is seen in Jerick's town
          • possibly came with the Sho Del assassin as the Assassin was "very angry" when the town killed the lizard
            • "A creature of darkness—or so the priests said. It had a thin, flat head with black eyes, and, unlike any normal lizard, its mouth was lined with teeth. It hissed loudly at its captors as it unrolled, its long tail raising as if to strike. Its most distinguishing feature, however, was its legs. An extra set of limbs sprouted from its belly, making it look almost like some overlarge insect rather than a lizard."
               
   1. Sho Del Forest Description as seen from quite some distance:
      • "Jerick was accustomed to pines, which tended to grow relatively far apart from one another. U Poni Sho Del’s forest was more like a wall of foliage; one mass of solid shrubbery as opposed to a line of tree. And, of course, the plants were all bone white. Fain animals he had seen before, but it had never really occurred to him that the plants would be Fain as well."
         
   2. Fain Wood might provide some magical abilities according to the prologue:
      1. The dying soldier bought a wooden charm from a Horwatcher; it let him hear the conversation between dragons and the Lord of the War (who is either a human or a god but is not Sho Del)
         
         "He gasped in pain for a few moments, then reached up with his left hand, wrapping his fingers around the small wooden charm at his neck. His good luck charm, purchased for an incredible sum from a traveling Horwatcher wizard
         
         The Lord of the War still stood beside the Dragonsteel well. The lead dragon stared down at the Lord, its dark eyes unreadable. Somehow, Adsen felt like he could feel the creature’s emotions. He was seeing something he shouldn’t; something that was not of men. Something between the Lord of the War and this dragon
         
         Suddenly, Adsen’s charm began to vibrate. He blinked in surprise. He had paid good money for the charm, but he hadn’t really expected it to do anything. Had the Horwatcher actually been telling the truth
         
         We are leaving. The words exploded in Adsen’s mind, ramming their way in through the pain and surprise. Somehow he knew that the lead dragon, the old one, had spoken. The words seemed to come through Adsen’s charm, entering directly into his mind
         
         Adsen could feel surprise, and anger, from the Lord of the War. Leaving? the Lord of the War said, his voice projected through Adsen’s charm."
          
      2. *Possibly* Jerick had a fainlife tree near his property and his castmark is made of it.
         1. Jerick stood before the massive tree. He had never been able to determine just what kind of tree it was—it had leaves rather than needles, but its bark was flaky and layered like that of a waxpole pine. It seemed to grow out more than up, its thick branches extending almost horizontally, like enormous vines. All of the branches were long and twisted, and they didn’t seem like they should be able to grow out as far as they did without breaking. Yet, each branch was powerful; Jerick had climbed in them many times, and they barely gave way beneath his weight. It was like they were made of metal rather than wood" ...
            
            The tips of the upper branches were dark and brittle, the bark charred. Lightning had struck here many times, but, for some reason, the tree had never started on fire. The top of the tree did not come to a point, like the pines or firs he had climbed. Instead, the ancient tree ended in a fat round knob, branches spreading out from it like the palm of a man’s hand
             
         2. Oddities
            1. The colour of this tree is never mentioned (the black colour is actually just a lightning strike).
            2. The cast mark is stained so we never learn the colour that way
            3. The tree is described as maybe having metal in it for support (fain sho del and dragons have metal in them)
            4. Resists fire
            5. Grows out to the side more than up (like the tree walls seen at a far distance in U Poni Sho Del)
            6. Jerick didn't know Fain trees were a thing until the end of the book and he never sees them up close
            7. There is a "source of power" in Jerick's village, and Jerrick;s power is somehow connected to it. Perhaps this tree is a magical tree separate entirely from Fainlife or perhaps this tree is somehow connected to fainlife. 
                
3. Connection to Dragons:
   1. Dragons are Fain and also have dragonsteel in/on their bodies
   2. Worshiped dragons are called the Dra Sho U Fel by the Sho Del (unclear if all dragons are called this)
   3. Some humans can commune with dragons using Tamu Keks (not easy; not simple; more in one spot makes it easier)  
   4. Sho Del started worshipping dragons on their own
      1. "We leave them because of their need, the dragon replied. We never asked for their worship, but we have done the best with it that we could. Now they have chosen to listen to you instead of us. Gods are not gods when they are ignored"
          
4. Named Sho Del
   1. Du Len:
      • Is a female child who has not taken Ana Ku Mae to enter adulthood
      • Is a Kame Ken Den Tu (magic adept person)
      • Is the daughter of the council leader
      • Is unsure of becoming an adult
         
   2. Fa Len Ko Mar
      • Is the council elder and likely leader of the Shattered Plains forces
      • Called Fa Len by his daughter
      • Is male
      • Is a Kame Ken Den Tu (magic adept)
         
5. Sho Del Magic
   1. Cognitive Illusions
      1. Can project these into the minds of others
      2. The enemy mind fills in the details of the illusions meaning the same projection can vary from person to person
      3. Illusions can deal real harm, block real swords, and kill.
      4. Projecting "nothing" where something is doesn't work well
      5. Illusions require constant concentration and disappear if not projected.
      6. Effects like succumbing later to post illusion-injury  may require other mental projections for a time
      7. Minds can be trained to resist many of these illusions but its not perfect. 
          
   2. Sho Del are able to broadcast their thoughts precisely or widely
      1. "Though I have trouble believing any Sho Del would be careless enough to broadcast so widely that a bystander could hear" - Topaz
          
   3. Sho Del might use items/tamu keks to cast sonic spells (potentially an illusion? Feels different maybe)
      1. "The Sho Del calmly lowered its bow, then reached into his cloak to re- move something thin and white. He closed his eyes and his mouth began to move slightly, his thumb rubbing the object. A spear, thrown by one of the approaching guards, slammed into the ground beside the creature. The Sho Del did not move.
         
         Jerick felt what happened next, and he thought he could see it too. A wiggling bubble exploded suddenly from the stranger, a translucent thing that wavered and vibrated. It moved impossibly quick, expanding like a ripple in water, and it hit Jerick before he could even jump back. Only then did he realize what the bubble was. Sound. He was seeing sound.

         It crashed like thunder, thunder that had struck incredibly close. It slammed into Jerick’s ears, making him gasp in pain. The guards dropped their weapons and put their hands to their ears, groaning in agony. The sound, however, had not been intended just for human ears. Its suddenness startled the massive horde of cattle, causing them to call and run madly.
         
         -----
         Thats what I caught! I would be happy to hear what other lore bits people picked up

On 5/13/2024 at 6:45 AM, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Love this theory. My only issue with it is that Heralds should take their swords with them when they go to Braize. 

Perhaps the safe prevented that from occurring? 

44 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

I looked at all the major times she summons a blade and there is nothing obvious. Chana's blade has a huge hole in the center, but nothing like that is described although sometimes it's simply described a "silvery" shardblade which is all of them. 

Yeah I was thinking about the heartbeat thing. When she kills Tyn in WoR Ch. 34 she thinks to herself she doesn't need 10 heartbeats, but then thinks she needs more time. The blade she draws is described as silvery which is not helpful. She could simply be thinking of how Testament used to not need a heartbeat count but now does. 

In the chasm in Ch. 72 it's pretty clearly Pattern, it has a pattern on it that glows in the dark both Shallan and Kaladin remark on it. Kaladin touches it and it doesn't scream like a dead eyed blade. Nothing about a big hole in the center.

When she activates the Oathgate in Ch. 86 she calls pattern by name right before the blade appears. It's probably him. 

In OB and RoW she is almost always undercover or in Shadesmar where the spren blades can't be summoned and she never summons a third blade. Adolin teaches her some of the sword forms early in OB but we don't get much of a description of her blade there. 

Still, I wouldn't be surprised if she had the honorblade. Even some her "Truths" are lies like the big reveal that she killed her mother has Shallan talking to Pattern as if he was the blade there. Is her name even Shallan? Can't trust her. 

Thanks for doing that!

I wonder if Radiant is the honourblade in some way. Radiant seems different than her other personas, and i can see the honourblade causing something strange with that. 

Also, Shallan having an honourblade might explain her stronger abilities and resonances mentioned in this chapter:
 

Questioner

If a Radiant uses an Honorblade or binds a second spren, could they get new abilities/resonances by having access to Surges that aren't usually combined?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, they could. Indeed.

15 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

Probably, triple wield!! It might be worth looking back at every time she’s summoned a blade and compare it to the blade Gavilar was examining in the prologue. 

This also might help explain some of the confusion over heartbeats. It has been super unclear if Shallan could summon her semi-deadeye blade with zero heartbeats. However, if Shallan was actually thinking about her mother's honourblade instead of a semi-deadblade, that might make more sense? 

I could also see Chana telling Lin Davar to put her honourblade in the safe if she were ever to die (stopping it from being stolen or summoned by stone shamans)
 

On 5/7/2024 at 1:47 PM, Child of Hodor said:

Before Szeth was kicked out there were 8 honorblades left. In WoR Taravangian interlude Tarvangian tries to explain away Kaladin's surgebinding by saying another Honorblade vanished. Szeth says "One of the other 7?". 

I assumed it was Nale's missing, I'll have to check the text though. If it is Chana's missing that makes my theory more plausible. Otherwise she had to go get her blade back after Szeth was made Truthless, but before the prologue. I'm not sure how long a timeframe that is. 

If Shallan took the sword in the safe....does Shallan ALSO have an Honourblade? 

I find it interesting that Shallan opened up the safe to get her blade. Does ... does that make sense? Shallan went to the garden to go meet Testament AFTER her father put Testament/mother's soul in the safe.

So in terms of timeline assuming a blade was in the safe (and not a herald-soul)
1. Shallan kills her mother with the blade.
2. Lin Davar quickly puts the blade in the safe.
3. Shallan goes to the garden to meet with Testament
4. Testament manifests in the garden
5. Shallan unbonds Testament after a conversation.
6. Testament returns to the safe somehow?

Does that make a lot of sense? Did Testament agree to go to the safe after being unbonded and then became a deadeye slowly after? Or does a deadeye blade return to the last place it was located in the physical realm? Can Testament be a blade in the safe and also go meet Shallan in the garden? Or was there even really a blade in the safe at all? Did Shallan actually see a blade in the safe or did she find nothing and remember that she had the blade the whole time - but then forgot that? 

I am so suspicious of all of this. I still think Shallan's mother's soul was actually in that safe like Shallan says originally in WoR. If the soul were to be in there, then maybe Shallan released her mother's soul when Shallan opened the safe, and that is why Taln returns a few months later (enough time for Chana to break and cause all this) 

I would love a secret history about the guy they through into the shardpool in Elantris that eventually ends up in Rosharan Shadesmaar Lighthouse

I wonder if Nazh died intentionally and was given the sacred ritual that creates a Cognitive Shadow.

Nazh says in SH: Becoming a Cognitive Shadow like Kelsier is "an important rite ... with requirements and traditions."

Since Nazh died in formal wear, maybe it he was dressed for this ceremony? 

I agree that we will likely see whatever world/location houses The Grand Apparatus.

However, what I am hoping for is to see a Sho-Del world like UTol or some other Sho Del power base. With Dragonsteel Prime coming out, getting some modern Sho Del might match up nicely. It also would make this new secret Project 5 connect to some of the previous Secret Projects as well. 

7 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I don't think this would explain it, because we see in the Prelude that Kalak had no idea whether any of the others were alive and none of them knew whether he was, which suggests they don't have a way to tell when fellow Heralds die. Modern-day Kalak's conviction that if the Fused have returned then Taln must have broken is also odd if he knows Chana has died and could easily be the one to have done it.

The timeline is less revealing than you’d think though. 
 

Before Kelak was done fighting, the other heralds had disbanded and abandoned their oaths. It’s possible that Ishar left the group early, and without any way to tell if anyone else had died, someone non-Ishar was asked to wait and see what became of Kelak. 
 

On another vein, it’s possible Ishar’s connection to the strained oathpact has changed over the past 4500 years. As the person who created it, maybe certain steps have been taken to maintain in, or perhaps resisting the return to Braize had caused other issues for Ishar as well. 

Assuming that Ishar is not the Stormfaker (which he may not be; we just had him as a good guess)

Could Ishar be the the newest target of the Stormfaker's manipulations? We see the Stormfaker abandon Gavilar during the SP5 project, and then fairly nearly in time Ishar is saying that Ishar is now a God King and needs to refound the Knights Radiant. Something must have prompted Ishar to suddently go God king; i always assume this was because he had learned about Chana's death, but maybe the Stormfake/father started manipulating Ishar instead once Gavilar fell through and once the Oathpact was in danger of breaking (re:chana)

Could the Stormfaker be with Ishar now and causing him to do research on Spren and all the other things we see? 

And could Ishar be absolutely enraged by seeing Dalinar bonded to the Stormfather because Ishar was told that he had been working with the Stormfather this whole time? 

If there is no Stomfaker, then would this mean that the Stormfather was talking to both Ishar and Dalinar at basically the same time? 

On 2/27/2024 at 8:19 AM, alder24 said:

This doesn't work for me, you can achieve the same things with lying Stormfather. Moreover Gavilar wasn't really on Dalinar's mind after WoR, when he finally resolved his guilt for not being able to save his brother. Since then he appeared here and there, but there isn't much in terms of internal conflict or struggle. Dalinar right now is more focused on the future and on his position as a leader - how to undermine it in a better way than with the realization that he was just a pawn and his position is based on lies?

For me Gavilar seems to be all the result of his own actions and ambitions. He might have been manipulated by Stormfather (real or fake), but he also manipulated him for his own goals and ambitions. Even if his behavior was the result of the Stormfather's manipulation, then the emotional impact would be far greater if it was the real Stormfather - now you have an entity that manipulated both of them for unknown reasons, leading one of them to his death. The stakes are just so much higher than with Ishar as the culprit. But again, Gavilar in my opinion was just a crem on his own.

IMO, I disagree that saying that both brothers being deceived by the Real Stormfather is functionally the same as only Gavilar being deceived by a Stormfaker.

This is because as i see it, Dalinar's last big lie to confront is the lie he tells himself about his brother not being as honourable as Dalinar has assumed. Multiple times Navani has tried to broach this subject, and Dalinar is unable to confront this issue. Dalinar blames himself for letting the great proto-bondmsith Gavilar die. Dalinar believes that the embodiment of honour had been guiding Gavilar. But what Dalinar needs to confront is that Gavilar was a two-faced monster. Adding in that the Stormfather is a two-faced monster in addition to Gavilar being a two faced monster really pulls us away from the Gavilar reveal and the emotional work Dalinar needs to do concerning Gavilar. 

Additionally, If Dalinar and Gavilar were both lied to and deceived in the same way, this gives Dalinar  yet another reason to be an apologist about his brother. Dalinar will have to say to Navani "Gavilar was just like me; he was deceived just like me. Gavilar cant be blamed because the Stormfather tricked us too".

We need a way to have Navani say "Dalinar, you are not just a 2nd son filling the shoes of your dead brother; Gavilar sucked. He was not honourable. YOU ARE HONOURABLE".

Navini's ability to confront this is severely undercut if Dalinar is making the same mistakes as his brother and has been bonding a somewhat evil Stormfather. 

Instead, if Dalinar learns that Gavilar's vices attracted the attention of an entity that was not the actual Stormfather, then Dalinar and Navani can have a real and frank discussion about who Gavilar was and why Dalinar's drunkenness did not result in the death of a great and unifying man. Dalinar will learn that Gavilar had the opportunity to bond the Real Stormfather [who is nominally sending visions as per his oath to Honour], but Gavilar instead was pulled in by something as corrupted as the Stormfaker. And by learning this, Dalinar will see that he isn't just the 2nd son version of the brother he failed to protect. 

And while I totally agree Gavilar was Gavilar's worst enemy in regards to his corruption and eventual death, Dalinar needs a way to confront this and to realize that Dalinar is wrong to consider his brother a good king cut down in his prime. Knowing that Gavilar was drawn more to an opportunistic Stormfaker over the honourable Stormfather will let Dalinar confront his misconceptions about his brother, and will finally allow Dalinar to understand his own life, and to actually be present and be able to support Navani when it comes to the abuse she had been suffering through. 
 

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I think visions are true and don't have to be questioned. The Stormfather is a bit off, there is no doubt about it. However, that's one of the reasons why I think Gavilar's Stormfather is the same as Dalinar's - the Stormfather who lies offers far better opportunities for conflict and character growth. A Stormfaker won't change anything for Dalinar, lying Stormfather would change everything, their whole Bond would be based on lies, everything Dalinar relied upon would be based on lies, and there is also realization that he was played like a fiddle by an entity that has some ulterior motive. How would that affect Dalinar? What would he do with his Bond? How differently would Dalinar act after learning the truth? What's the truth? Why did the Stormfather lie? What did he want to achieve? Is this connected to the First Desolation, Recreance or Honor's death? Blaming Ishar for everything gives us nothing but a little bit of shock. 

I think a Stormfaker would change things for Dalinar. This would help him reach character growth concerning the fact that his brother was a huge jackass. It would help Dalinar connect with Navani over how abusive and strange Gavilar was being too.

If Dalinar finds out that Gavilar was being tricked and wasn't really on the path to bondsmithing nearly as much as Dalinar thought, and that Gavilar's greed and ambition actually wasnt really of honour after all but of someone like ishar, then we get the chance for some real emotional confrontation on the level of Dalinar confronting his relationship with who Evy was. And Dalinar needs to confront who his brother really was both for his own sake, but also for his wife's sake too. 

Damn. I think you are correct. This makes a lot of sense. 

"two blind men sit on a hilll and discuss beauty" - Moash and Marsh?

This may be too dark of a thought, but I wonder if any mixed children have been born in t he last 4000 years between desolations. I mean, if it is possible, you think it would have happened at least once in the interim. Unless you need mate-form or another form for that to work between species. 

I am hoping Ambition comes back and is the Big Bad. 

We are likely going to get some Ba Ado Mishram eventually, and if she returns then the rules regarding Dead Eyes might change. We seem to know that deadeyes didn't happen before Ado was trapped, so maybe they can be repaired after she is released. 

What seems likely in my mind is that Adolin figures out how to revive deadeyes once Mishram is released. The process wont be automatic but all the effort Adolin has put in will pay off.  

2 hours ago, Yaganim said:

Interesting idea but I think it is unlikely since: (spoiler for the sunlit man)

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It will be weird for Sigzil to not mention this when confronting Hoid.

 

I do admit that your spoiler makes things less likely, but I also think Hoid betraying Dalinar could have stopped being top-of-mind for that character anymore and also could have helped create a bigger wedge between them. 

I think Hoid will be Todium's champion. I dont think original Odium would have done this, but Todium has seen the opportunity. 

Surely Odium can offer Hoid something that he wants. Add that to all the minor betrayals from Hoid to Jasnah and Hoid's "I would watch this world burn" comment, and I think we have a pretty foreshadowed solution. 

Hoid can't kill and basically cant be killed, so the battle will come out in a way that the contrsct didn't expect. 

37 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Temperature has some effect on investiture, at least when metal is already molten. You might be onto something.

  Reveal hidden contents

Nethseäar

Can you burn or Feruchemically fill molten metal? Assuming, you know, that was something you wanted to do.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you should be able to but that would be very nasty.

Nethseäar

Would it affect the Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, it would affect the Investiture.

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

 

 

I wonder if the mists are some form of Solid ---> Gas sublimation. If other metals could be sublimated and ingested, would there be a different effect? That would ... i guess .... avoid causing any impurities in the metal. The sublimated metals would likely freak out when exposed to oxygen though, so that makes the whole process pretty hard to pull off.

Cadmium, zinc, and magnesium have relatively lower sublimation temperatures. I am not an expert in this, but people who work with space-craft keep track of which metal perform best within a vacuum, and this is as aspect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materials_for_use_in_vacuum

I wonder if temperature would have something to do with it? Here is a very laymen overview of what I mean. 

To make some metals stronger, the metals can be heated to higher temperatures to create impurities that cause hardening (since 9/10 times people want a harder metal). However, this change might be seen as "perfect" or "imperfect" in terms of investiture since the structure has been changed somewhat. Additionally, there is also  another property called the "ductile-brittle transition point" temperature that looks at how much energy a metal is able to absorb at a specific temperature. Steel for example is much more brittle at lower temperatures. 

So the temperatures that the metal have experienced before/during refinement could effect the metal, as could the temperature the metal is at when "burned". 

I wonder if refinement and ductile-brittle would have any effect? And if so, would the goal be to make harder or softer or more energy absorbent? This also makes me wonder what might happen if someone burned a different phase of metal (gas/liquid/etc). Could there be a different effect if the individual managed to survive the attempt?