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I dont think so, but I could be wrong.  My understanding of the push/pull issue for metalminds is more from their being Invested at all but not so much from Identity interference.  I think the same can be said for the resistance to Pushing/Pulling on metal that is inside somebody.  A case example being that Drabs are easier to Push but seem to have fully functioning and unique Identity (which is why an awakener cant take their animating Breath back.

49 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

Now I picture some maximum security prison where inmates have aluminum implanted into them to ground out their powers or whatever.  

 

Like someone uses emotional allomancy in ways that break the laws and they serve their time of not being able to use it anymore or whatever. 

Agreed, and Ive long expected to see exactly that eventually.  At minimum it would be a very reasonable and humane (assuming it's reversable) way to contain metalborn and/or off-world criminals while they're actually in prison, but it might also be a sort of parole where they are allowed Out but not allowed to keep their powers active.

49 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

 

Though I think the Nicrosil spikes will be punishments worse than death. It would be foolish to not harvest innate investiture off of criminals who are destined to never be of use in society again... but now I sound like a crazy person.  

 

If criminals could be apprehended via some aluminum needle embedded into the pair of handcuffs then they could stand trial safely and their abilities could be harvested on deathrow for the betterment of society.  For those life with out parol folks just skim off their innate investiture as their last way of giving back to society what their criminal dealings had taken from it. 

That becomes a whole other can of worms that will depend heavily on the cultural outlook on Hemalurgy. It would make sense for people who are about to Die to want to leave a piece of themselves for their family and heirs, etc.  But it's so easy to abuse with good ol' fashioned Murder that it would inevitably become a legal flashpoint.  Just like the RL debates about assisted Suicide, there's a lot to untangle before the whole population would accept it.  I doubt it would ever get to the point of Harvesting inmates against their will, but I could see a blanket Cultural Right to leave a piece of yourself behind that could still be open to inmates.  

23 minutes ago, strmblsd said:

banana and a orange

A Kumquat

A Spider + a Demonic Bargain

54 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

So the working theory is that is just blocks the powers?  I read it as it removes all powers. Which leads me to believe that anything external would be safe. 

But if it blocks all use of powers then that would be interesting. Would it interfere with fabrial technology? 

Yes, the working theory is that it grounds out investiture (in the electrical sense).  Per WOB's about Cosmere continuity, no Investiture can stick to aluminum*.  So in the physical world it blocks investiture effects like a Faraday Cage for Investiture.  And if you actually realmically interface it with your spiritweb directly, as with Hemalurgy, it prevents you from ever channeling Investiture and/or creating Investiture-based effects while it's inserted in your spiritweb.  So while you have a part-aluminum spiritweb, thanks to the spike plugged into it, you'd be unable to use allomancy, feruchemy, sandmaster (per WOB), and presumably Surges, honorblades, or anything else that requires a Bond or Investiture to pass into, out of, or through you.  

*Which means that neither aluminum metalminds or aluminum Spikes ever actually gain an Investiture Charge, which is consistent with the evidence so far.    

Under this explanation it's interference rather than destruction (consistent with the Aluminum vs Silver WOBs) so logically those powers would come back once the Spike was removed unless they are specifically fragile.  For example, it might just Kill a Returned because of the Divine Breath aspect of their Spiritweb, but since WOB says normal breaths are in the body and not the spiritweb, they might be safe.  Im guessing that a Radiant bond would be suppress but not destroyed (the way leeching does not permanently sever it), and ditto Aviar bonds.  Im assuming that All Powers interference would extend to things that create weak/temporary bonds like Midnight Essence spores, honorblades, or medallions. But anything that can operate entirely without sapient intervention like ettmetal devices or most rosharan fabrials would be safe unless the aluminum was physically close/touching it (to interfere the normal aluminum way).

28 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

Thinking about Kandra I feel like they may be the only real characters in the cosmere who might not be effected by aluminum weapons. 

The kandras "powers" aren't even a part of their own spirit web. Would aluminum spikes steal their ability to be kandra without removing the spikes that complete their spiritweb? 

But then that would have to be asked about all hemalurgic spikes right?  Can aluminum spikes remove the powers granted from other hemalurgic spikes or only powers that are a part of the individuals spirit web?  

I know that spikes implant a part of the other persons spiritweb but it is still the victims spirit web and it is stapled onto the host. 

Example. You spike a pewter arm and steal pewter allomancy. Now you go and give it to a tin eye. That tineye never becomes a pewterarm... they can use pewter because they have a spot on their spirit web that can access that power from someone else's spiritweb. 

So now that person gets spiked by aluminum. Does it ruin their spiritweb and short circuit the spike holding pewter allomancy? Or does the tineye lose his powers but still able to use the pewterarm powers? 

The spike works by essentially adding additional functional parts of spiritweb to yours, and since Aluminum spikes can affect more than just scadrian magics I think it would be able to block your use of the powers regardless of whether it was natural or hemalurgic.

I think the weirder question would be how it interacts with medallions.  They are more external but still create and require a Bond to function, so the Aluminum Spike should block those Powers too.  Ettmetal Grenades, on the other hand, require no interaction or Intent from a person so the aluminum spike would not block it.  

35 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It's possible Harmony guided Wax's hand. The night that day was very Misty, Harmony acts through Mists (they are always present during important events in Wax's life) and Wax ingested Mists at some point in the past. I think Wax was also spiked that night as well (his earring), which would give Harmony the ability to guide his hand to aim for the proper binding point. Harmony interleaved in AoL to make sure that the box with his guns and mistcloak would be at the location where the climax took place and that Wax would find it. 

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Questioner

Has Wax drawn on the mists at some point?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016)

 

It also might not have mattered in those specific instances, since any bind point would work equally.  There are two scenario's where all bind points logically act the same: Aluminum Power Blocking Spikes, and Shardic Control of Kandra via two or more spikes.  For those you dont care about a successful removal of Spiritweb or reintegration, just the basic realmic effect of the spike's presence. And hitting ANY bind point is a lot easier than hitting a specific one, and there are some specific ones that are relatively big targets.  Shooting somebody through the eye socket is well withing Wax's abilities, for example, and WOB says there's a dense cluster of them around the heart so it might legitimately be hard to miss them all with a heart shot.  

PS. If we're talking about the night wax shot Paalm, Wax was not spiked at the time because that spike is the one he turned into a bullet and shot her with. He didnt shoot her with aluminum, it was his Pathian earring made into a bullet.  

52 minutes ago, ParaTulip said:

Where it that Adonalsum had a purpose in making mankind, mankind would be the most justified in killing Adonalsum for such an Adonalsum would be evil.

To treat a person as a mere means is to negate their existence as a living being, it reduces them to the same level as a hammer or a knife. Thus, the murder of Adonalsum would not be for the making of the Singers in this hypothetical, but might very well be for the justice of reducing Adonalsum to the status that Adonalsum ascribed to its creation, a lifeless thing.

Also, if humans and singers can interbreed, there is no more a replacement there than the passing of generations. It's the logic of racism and fascism to see replacement in the succession of generations and the intermingling of peoples.

Agreed.  Not to mention that if Fear of the Singers had been the 16's primary motivation, then the first thing the Shards would have done after taking BigA's power would have been to descend on Roshar and blast all the singers into oblivion.  They wouldnt have been left to whichever Shards wandered by.  

On 3/28/2025 at 4:03 AM, ParaTulip said:

Scadrial has the ability to make nuclear bombs if someone can source trellium. The goals and conditions for the war matter a lot when weapons like that are out there.

Meanwhile, Per WOB Rosharans are one material science lesson away from having nukes in Dalinar's technological era.

What are you looking at for circuit functionality, LED lighting or EV wire maybe?

I would suggest considering more of a base, perhaps including some of the natural mountainside that it rises from, so that you have enough space for a battery cavity and any control circuit you'll need.  

56 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Aluminum is known to be different in Cosmere. It can't hold Breaths, it can't hold Stormlight, it can't hold any other investiture. There is no reason for aluminum to work differently in Metallic Arts. There is no confirmation that Aluminummind holds investiture when used instead of just blanking your identity with no way to tap it back. An aluminum spike can work in the same way - it removes all powers from your spirit web, without being invested itself. It doesn't even make sense for an aluminum spike to have a need to be charged before it's used to remove powers - what charge would it even need when all it does is the same thing as any other spike that's used on all donors. Aluminum is different and we have to take this into consideration. The more I think about aluminum, the more I realize that aluminum holding a charge in Metallic Arts would be inconsistent with how aluminum works in Cosmere. Why would you expect aluminum to be investable by Feruchemy or Hemalurgy, but not by Breaths and Stormlight? We will probably see how an Aluminummind works in Era 3, from that we can extrapolate it to Hemalurgy.

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Argent

On Nalthis, can aluminum prevent somebody from Returning? So if you kill somebody with aluminum and leave the weapon in them?

Brandon Sanderson

I don't think that's going to be enough. I think that…

Argent

Different way then?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah there are totally ways. I don’t think that that’s going to be enough. There's a difference between being inert and blocking Investiture, and actually sucking out Investiture. If you stuck Nightblood inside of a corpse; there are certain things… if you had a larkin or whatever sitting there that ingests the Investiture as it was coming in, that would prevent [Returning]. I think with aluminum you would just have somebody that comes alive with a wound, so maybe... But I think it would just heal around [the aluminum] and you'd just have a spike in you, kind of like Hemalurgy—but not like Hemalurgy. It's inert, but you know what I mean.

Argent

Which suggests you can't actually Awaken aluminum.

Brandon Sanderson

No. It's not going to hold a charge.

Kurkistan

I assume you can't Forge it, either.

Brandon Sanderson

No. In fact the unForgable metal-

Argent

Ralkalest?

Brandon Sanderson

There's an unForgeable metal mentioned.

Kurkistan

Could we call it aluminum if we wanted to?

Brandon Sanderson

Let's just say that aluminum through most cultures was considered a mythological metal, and when people could actually find some, they considered it more valuable than gold, in our culture. So just sayin'...

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

 

Agreed, especially since Aluminum being off-limits for Investiture effects is apparently considered such a continuity element that Peter wont allow Brandon to make the shardblade guards out of aluminum.  

7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

1. It seems to me that at least northern Scadrial still sees allomantic powers as a gift from their god. That means that regulating their use is a very dicey issue, so the answer is likely that the won't do that.
2. Registring the mages also means registring the muggles. Even if the powers are evenly distributed through the populace, I am sure that the nobles are not eager to admit that and more specifically that they themselves are muggles. So I think the answer to that question will also be negative.

Agreed. And a big part of the classic Mutant Registration conversation is the inherent dangers posed by the entirely random and potentially catastrophic powers people might gain, but the Metallic Arts as they stand now are just not that Unknown to the general population, and overall getting weaker rather than trending stronger like Mutant powers.  That sort of registration would probably be limited to off-worlders (which might arguably be a reasonable immigration policy) and any revival of the full Mistborn or Feruchemist of legend that might be unlocked through their scientific advancement. 

Also I could see a very strict and detailed system tracking Hemalurgic Spikes.  For society's sake Hemulurgy would need to be either outlawed or heavily tracked and regulated to ensure spikes are either historical enough to predate laws or were created under whatever their "modern" definition of humanely harvested might be (full written consent of a terminal Donor, Heirloom family Spikes, etc).  

1 minute ago, DoctaDajman said:

Absolutely. I liked it in xmen. I liked it in civil war. The idea of a registry drives me nuts but the idea of the tension an author could get when they use it in their book is awesome. 

Good to know about the 1980s. Glad to get at least one more era of loose rules and wild wild west as far as the ability to track and punish criminals. 

Although I say track but there will probably be enough tin eyes or tin ferrings around to legit track down criminals. Running away is going to be so much harder when someone can just sniff you out and the police have coin shots or steel runners to chase you down.  

I dont think we'll see magic surveillance Cameras for that sort of thing, but I could see ettmetal tech that uses A-Bronze to detect and alarm in the event of a nearby allomantic Burn.  

Even in the final empire it was considered bothersome that allomancers would use metals in buildings for their anchors and cause damage because they weren't stout enough to support a full person's weight, etc.  So I think at minimum you'll see specifically designated lanes and "roads" with stout metal anchors that they have been built and installed to support the allomantic acrobatics.  Anyone caught using other metals and/or actually causing harm would face appropriate legal penalties, akin to driving on a sidewalk or through a park.  

I could see individual cities having ordinances against dropping metal trash as your own personal anchor (like the spent bullet shells Wax used).  So I could see that getting caught up in littering laws. Though I could also see there being a specifically stated exception for using Coins and just calling that a nominal act of charity for whomever picks the coin up later on.  

You are storing/tapping your Body's warm-blooded ability to generate Heat internally.   But it's that Internal heat generating capability, not raw Thermal energy storage. So for example, to survive a hot environment you cant resist it by raising your body temperature to match it (per the WOB but I might argue the thermodynamics there), but you could lower your body temp to counter the environmental effects.  

Quote

 

Thoughtful Spurts

If tapping heat means your own body gets hotter, does it also mean you become immune to hot temperatures so long as you're tapping it, or should you fill heat and grow colder for that to happen?

Brandon Sanderson

As everything in Feruchemy, you become immune to the effects of the ability only. Like weight doesn't crush you, but at the same time doesn't have a net gain in strength. Growing colder, however, would be more helpful in this regard.

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 26, 2012)

 

1 hour ago, DoctaDajman said:

I was thinking of (and posted in another thread I will @ you in) an iron compounder who gets paid to destroy buildings. With the proper training I envision him as a trained engineer to avoid the whole getting crushed to death thing. I assume the proper cuts into support beams could allow a building to stay standing long enough for him to pull one massive pull at the base of it before it all crumbles in a nice direction. 

He gets to escape the added costs of explosives for his business but it comes with considerable risk to his own life... 

How he started up to get to this point? Who knows. Perhaps he has some gnarly scar or something from an earlier failed attempt which prompted him to go to school and get the training needed to do it safer? 

"Your Building is Crushed."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTlwZxqKvY0

10 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

At least in Era 2, Metalborn aren't extremely rare, but still very valuable and a small percentage of the total population. 

I think it would be fun to think up of characters and stories for the upcoming RPG that involve the PCs needing cash or being raised in impoverished circumstances. In fact, if I ever get to run a Mistborn campaign I'd like to do one where a handful of low-level newbies try to make a quick note by taking on some kind of sketchy job, which drags them into a bunch of future misadventures. Or, a fun idea for a playable character would be a street urchin Lurcher that uses their Allomancy to steal valuable jewelry and climb buildings. 

But, I find it hard to believe that a person with a useful magic power couldn't just find a lucrative nine to five. A Thug, Slider, or Lurcher wouldn't have to worry about finances so much, because their irreplaceable talents would be guaranteed to get them a number of well compensating jobs.

Is this an incorrect train of thought? Are there ways someone with an Allomantic or Feruchemical power might still find themselves in such positions?

They certainly could, but they'd be in extremely high demand for both honest and corrupt work.  So it would essentially be all the different tropes for why a talented young person might fall in with Organized Crime instead of the honest job their grandmother always wanted.  

3 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Aluminum is a weird metal by default, it's able to block Investiture completely, yet it can be used for the Metallic Arts, it can be Burned Allomantically, it can be filled Feruchemically, and it can be used Hemalurgically.

To be fair, it's still an open question whether any of the three Metallic Arts are capable of making Investiture stick to aluminum, which would otherwise be unique in the cosmere.  WOB says that compounding aluminuim wont be useful, which I think is because Aluminum metalminds dont ever actually gain investiture so there's no Charge to compound.  Similarly, I can't think of any logical Spiritweb chunk you'd need to Intentionally rip out to get an aluminum spike to work, but Im open to suggestions. 

Otherwise it seems like Aluminum still just grounds out Investiture rather than being affected by it, which would explain why it's feruchemcial power is all about Blanking something with no examples of tapping it (so far), and its hemalurgic power is all about blocking All Powers at once by the same general virtue of Investiture not playing well with Aluminum present in the equation, especially if spliced directly and realmically into the spiritweb. 

For what it's worth, Isles of Emberdark looks ready to give us a more detailed look at the dragon life cycle, if the preview chapters are any indication, so we should know more soon on the Dragon side of the question when that get's published.  If you're interested and dont mind that kind of spoiler you should check those chapters out.  

17 hours ago, DoctaDajman said:

I could see certain metals that would be used in conjunction, even when compounding having some sort of resonance as well. 

Pewter, Tin, Iron, Brass, Zinc, and Bronze are the ones that really come to the top of my mind. 

I simply say that because I can see ample opportunities to use both powers in conjunction with eachother and I kind of feel like the resonance would not necessarily come at the cost of savantism but right along side of the possibility. 

Unless there is something that specifically states that both cannot exist with eachother I think it would more than likely be associated with constant use, learning the little tricks and making those a subconscious thing you are doing while using both abilities together. 

Savantism comes from overuse and resonances come from synergy.  I figure the hardest part of gaining both has more to do with cost of materials than anything. 

Just to a bit clarify further:

Savantism comes from over-use Warping the Spirtweb (and doylistically will always have a downside). 

Resonances are when the energies of two Powers interact in weird ways to create effects that are related (thought not obviously so) but generally distinct, like Windrunners getting more squires in a weird Spiritual Twist on Gravity+Adhesion, or Lightweaver Memory in a weird Cognitive Twist of Lightweaving+Soulcasting. 

And then there's just good tactical/synergistic use of two powers together, like weight+Pushing making you hit way harder, or F-Tin protecting you against A-Tin's downsides.  

There are also some things that were once described as Savantism but now are being called Just Skill, which I believe is where Wax's bubble push currently is.  

2 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Not in the slightest, though most likely well over a decade.

They were around for years before Gavilar's death, and around to pressure the Davar's before Shallan killed her mom.

But that's about all we know for sure.

More than a decade, less than 300-ish years that is the earliest they could have been founded at all.  

3 hours ago, Dofurion said:

 

Another thing I wanted to mention, but didn't know how to put it in the original post is that: If they are chiral organisms, then it also explains (or rather, the possibility) of the existence of human beings immune to fainlife (as Hoid would be during his time in Yolen (hence the white hair)). Unlike the other theory that was being considered, that they were life forms based on Cilice.

Sorry, you lost me. Can you elaborate?

I think it's an arms race to solve opposite limitations of their magic systems.

Roshar has stronger Powers but relies on naturally occurring sources of Investiture in the Physical Realm in the form of either Perpendicularities or a very Finite number of Godspren-empowered Bonsmiths.  But they have Rosharan Fabrial tech developing that is likely on the way to solving that sort of problem. 

Every Allomancer has the ability to pull Investiture from the Spiritual Realm directly in relatively large quantities, but the actual applications of their Powers (currently appear to be) more Limited, and you generally need to be born with the powers.  Scadrian Fabiral tech is already well on it's way to allowing anyone to use the powers, though we dont yet know all the details and limitations of creating or using them.  

Rosharns have lots of Power and versatility but rely heavily on Investiture Supply Lines.  Scadrians have to work harder (or be luckier by birth) to get specific Powers and/or effects can get to their Investiture source from anywhere in the Cosmere. 

Having just watched the Death Stranding 2 trailer, I thought this would be a whole other conversation.  

The polarized Light bit caught my attention.  But lets back up for a sec, what do we know about Fain life that is Canon?  Im counting recent WOB's that he seems committed to but really just not the explicitly non-canon prime stories. Yolen had both ecosystems

• Fain is an Invasive Ecosystem

• Fain life is characterized by 6 limbs.
• Dragons are of Both? (per info in the Isles of Emberdark preview)
• The Fain Ecosystem is Colorless.  
  • [Non-plot related WoT reference]
    Spoiler

    Something was described as "Timid, like a Fain animal seeing the Colorful world for the first time."  

So that's where Im at, I've always been fascinated but confused by the role of Color in the broader Realmics and Investiture, from how the Dawnshards cause a Vibrancy aura just like Breaths to how some plants in Shadesmar are occasionally full color while most are greyscale.  Also the role Color-drain plays in Awakening, since it's not the investiture Key (like metal or Aon shapes) but also not the source of investiture itself. 

Sooo... Any thoughts?

10 minutes ago, Entr0pic said:

I could imagine that being the double pewter resonance. And i do think you get a resonance from compounding. I always assumed mile’s pain ignorance was his double gold resonance. 

My understanding of Miles Pain issue was that it was Savantism from overusing Gold at full allomantic levels. But Savantism has and/or is likely to be retconned per WOB, so it's a bit of a moving target to draw the line between the two. 

I was referring to how they've more recently learned to store their Sense of Pain in tinmind to suppress their pain response.  If eventually can similarly store specific physical Traits in a Pewtermind, rather than just physical bulk the way Sazed did it, they might be able to start playing with storing and manipulating much more targeted traits (both natural ones and things A-Pewter grants).

Can we talk for a moment about the possibilities (if any) of Twin Pewter?  

This WOB implies that Pewter could actually be activating a Mind-Ove-Matter state with potential for larger changes akin to Returned.  And in general Feruchemy seems to be developing where metals have more and more variety of use and application than Era1 realized, as an overall trend (storing Pain in Tin, pretty much all the spiritual metals, etc). 

So Im wondering if there are any benefits to using them together, either in traditional Compounding to get the Feruchemical version of Strength, or some more specific benefit to selective storing the way A-tin and F-Tin work together well.  Or Both, if you can use the A-Pewter's Mind-over-matter state to modify more specific/focused physical Changes.  So for example, I wonder if F-Pewter could target just Height, or just Physical Endurance, and then store that alone in a Pewtermind (at which point you could Compound it for more if you wanted).   

Quote

 

Questioner (paraphrased)

1. On a scale of 1 to 10, how similar are the processes of Command-Breaking a Lifeless and Unmaking?

2. Is there more going on behind the scenes when an Allomancer burns pewter? I suspect that the process triggers a "mind over matter" state, where the user's desires are made manifest, albeit in a limited way. If so, can a pewter burner alter their Physical appearance, similar to a Returned (provided they knew they could and had access to enough pewter)?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

1. 7 they are similar

2a. That is a valid theory. On the right track. 

2b. Possible in theory

FanX 2022 (Sept. 22, 2022)