Blightsong

Here to pull rank on those other links who guessed Kelsier was involved with the Ghostbloods lol, guessed it pre-Oathbringer

Seems like this one arrived after Horneaters settled in the peaks. This would mean after the original human colonization of Roshar, I believe.

Quote

“So you do know,” Nikli said to her.
“There are songs . . .” Cord said. “From long ago. Of when this . . . Command came through the pool.” She whispered again in her tongue, and it sounded like a prayer.”

I'm thinking maybe it came with the Iri on the Long Trail?

Just finished the book and i'm still gathering my thoughts, but this just came to me. Maybe the Set are in possession of a Dawnshard. It seems like they have the ability to wipe out all life on Scadrial if this quote is to be believed:

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“But you need us!” Suit said. “To rule, to manage civilization on—” “No longer. Recent advances have made civilization here too dangerous. Allowing it to continue risks further advances we cannot control, and so we have decided to remove life on this sphere instead.

And this seems to be the Sleepless' exact fear when it comes to people finding Dawnshards:

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“I cannot speak,” the cook said, “even to sate a dying demand. There are those who could pull secrets from your soul, and the cost would be the ends of worlds. Sleep now, Soulcaster. This is the most merciful end I could give.”

What do you all think?

I don't think Kaladin's viewpoint has been repetitive at all. Yes, he's been depressed the whole time but his inner struggle has gone from denial, to anger, to acceptance in a way that's been very satisfying and relatable to me personally. His character hasn't stagnated at all this book imo, it's actually grown more in these chapters than in all of OB in my opinion.

It's also been apparent to me since book 2 that there was more to Shallan's early past than anything to do with her mother's death, this was hinted at in the flashback scene with Hoid. Then all throughout OB Pattern brought this up. Seems pretty well set up to me narratively as well as realistically, as one of the biggest symptoms of DID is amnesia.

But that's just my opinion. We'll have to see how this all goes in the full book, especially the Shallan stuff.

Thought I'd post other places I've found similarities. Seems like both radiant and fabrial soulcasting are related:

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Adolin nodded, and Kadash walked back to the five and gave a few brief commands. He spoke quickly, nervous. It was odd to see that in Kadash, who was normally so placid and unflappable. Soulcasters had that effect on everyone. The five started softly chanting, a harmony to the singing of the ardents outside. The five stepped forward and raised their hands in a line, and Adolin found his face breaking out in a sweat, blown cold by the wind that managed to sneak past the silken walls. At first there was nothing. And then stone.

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And then, briefly, Shallan heard a sound. A low thrumming, like a distant group of voices, humming together a single, pure note. Jasnah’s hand sank into the rock. The stone vanished.

Odium is definitely keeping Venli alive on purpose. I'm surprised no one here has mentioned the moment in the books where this is all but confirmed, right as she's about to be taken by a Fused:

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Pain seared her insides, as if someone had set fire to her veins. She screamed, and sand bit her tongue. Tiny coals ripped at her clothing, singeing her skin. And then, a voice. WHAT IS THIS? It was a warm voice. An ancient, paternal voice, kindly and enveloping. “Please,” Venli said, gasping in breaths of smoky air. “Please.” YES, the voice said. CHOOSE ANOTHER. THIS ONE IS MINE.

He definitely is not blind and is just keeping Venli, in his own words, as his.

11 minutes ago, Karger said:

Isn't it shown pretty clearly though?  The whole vault of easter eggs?  The Aviar?  The masked woman?  Comments like "not of the local species of human."

Only if you're a Cosmere aware 17th Sharder who knows what to look for. Those are pretty much easter eggs, like you said. Fans of only the Stormlight books would not pick that up, so those lines being important foreshadowing doesn't click for me. Especially since Brandon has said stuff like this since those Mraize scenes:

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Fantasy Faction

Someone from Earth is about to be sent off to the cosmere. They've read your first Stormlight book, but they've never really taken time to really dig deep and find out about how it sits in the overall "cosmere", so they're totally unprepared. What basic concepts regarding shards, magic systems and world hopping do you think are most important?

Brandon Sanderson

The first, most important thing to say to the person who's being sent there is to enjoy the story you're in. All of the cosmere stuff, the interconnection between my books and all these wonderful little things, are right now mostly Easter eggs. Which means that if you spend the whole book only worried about that, you're going to miss the beauty and fun that is the book that you're part of. I often say to people, don't worry if you read them "out of order," because it's all Easter eggs right now. Don't worry and stress if you miss something about the cosmere, because while someday that might be important, you first need to enjoy the book that you're part of. But the primer I'd give to this person is that the worlds are connected. If you show up on a planet and there's a guy named Hoid around, then be very afraid, because you're someplace very dangerous.

3 hours ago, Rainier said:

So, somewhat like the Ire from Sel, a group of Invested individuals, living the Cognitive realm and doing who knows what? I could see it, yes. We know that humans came from Ashyn, and destroyed it. I doubt that was through what I would call conventional space travel (rocket goes boom), but rather through surges, which means through Shadesmar. 

My question, why Ghostbloods? Ire doesn't mean anything that I know of, and the Set is a name designed to be vague, but Seventeenth Shard makes sense (we are equal to the other 16 shards, but extra). Sons of Honor makes sense (restore Honor/Honor's children, return the Oathpact/Heralds). What the heck do ghosts, or blood, have to do with anything? If we're looking for meaning in their symbolism, we should at least question what they call themselves, too.

Cognitive Shadows are pretty much ghosts, that's why I suspect a group of them are involved. The Bondsmiths (or the Ashyn equivalent) are the other half of my guess because they are Connected to Honor's Perpendicularity and also have shown the power to Ascend (at least in Dalinar's case), both being ways we've seen used in universe to become a CS.

5 hours ago, Karger said:

We know that senior members are from off world.  Also there is the set on scadrial.

All true. We don't know how high ranking Iyatil is, but I think it's safe to assume at least moderately high. I guess it just doesnt feel well set up for me. Brandon has been very careful to not say anything about the origins of the Ghostbloods in book or in WoBs. If they were originally from off world I would have expected more hints towards that fact. Hints that casual readers would pick up on. Just like when he foreshadowed pretty heavily right away that whatever is influencing the Set is foreign to Scadrial.

But that's just me. A lot of what we've seen in Rhythm of War could be more solid foreshadowing toward that reveal so who knows.

I think it's MUCH more likely that the Ghostbloods are native to the system. I feel like any reveal that their leadership is from another planet would overly complicate things for fans of just Stormlight. At this point, my best guess is that they are/were and an ancient group of Bondsmiths or maybe even the Ashyn equivalent that became Cosmere aware after becoming Cognitive Shadows. Fits with the name and their symbol (3 diamonds = 3 spren). Maybe not so much the ideology, but hey, who knows if the oaths are still intact after death.

I see a lot of people talking as if the Moash that Renarin revealed could be a Malatium type of vision, but what if it's a premonition of Moash's redemption instead? Renarin's abilities have been much more tied to futuresight than anything like malatium so far...

Exited to see more of his powers now that he's had a year to learn them!

A few interesting tid-bits in these chapters!

• Who do you all believe is working with the Sons of Honor to betray Dalinar? Taravangian?
• Dalinar opening a perpendicularity on command is interesting. It seems pretty clear at this point that Dalinar is a full Sliver as we've seen in other books, being Connected to such vast amounts of power. Makes me wonder if there are past Bondsmiths running around the Cognitive Realm as Cognitive Shadows (Ghostbloods?). Perhaps that would explain the below quote from Nale, or this scene where a much older Nohadon appears to Dalinar and tells him of his life before curtailing Dalinar's suspicions:

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“You think you can fight me, child?” he growled, holding his Blade against her rod. “I who have lived immortal lives? I who have slain demigods and survived Desolations? I am the Herald of Justice.”

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“This … is different from the other visions,” Dalinar said. “What’s going on?” The thumping from before returned. Dalinar spun, then charged out of the tent, determined to get a look at the thing. He saw it above the buildings, a stone creature with an angular face and red spots glowing deep in its rocky skull. Storms! And he had no weapon. Nohadon stepped from the tent, holding his bag of grain. He looked up and smiled. The creature leaned down, then offered a large, skeletal hand. Nohadon touched it with its own, and the creature stilled. “This is quite the nightmare you’ve created,” Nohadon said

• Those aluminum spears with the gemstones were very interesting. Seems like Aluminum could be another method with which to capture spren in a fabrial.
• And finally... the Aimia bit! Seems like Cord may be a character in the upcoming novella!

2 hours ago, Zelly said:

Ooooooo more music / rhythm connections?  I swear frequency and sound is going to end up having a major role on Roshar.  

It occurred to me during a reread that we have see this exact same thing before off of Roshar. I'm sure anyone who's read secret history will remember the below scene.

Seems like pretty much the same thing. Perpendicularities/large concentrations of Investiture that release some in kinetic form seem to produce these audible 'noises' in a much stronger form than what a Seeker would normally pick up. Very interesting.

@Pagerunner I agree with most of what you're saying, but I don't remember that Syl quote and cant find it after looking pretty extensively through the Oathbringer eBook. Let me know if you find it, cause I think that's the main crux of our disagreement here.

Just now, Harbour said:

In before Urithiru was originally evil city that must be powered up by the Voidlight.

Just throwing some crem ideas around.

Or Cultivationlight 

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MiToRo94

Honor has Stormlight and Odium has Voidlight, is there a Cultivationlight? If so, can an Invested person use it as a third magic on Roshar or is a boon/curse the only magic of Cultivation/Nightwatcher?

Brandon Sanderson

There is more! I'll just say that, the rest is Read And Find Out. You are theorizing in an accurate direction.

1 hour ago, Pagerunner said:

Sibling talk. Get some explicit ties to Bondsmith spren and the Urithiru tower. But remember, it began to slumber before the Recreance, before Melishi (the only Bondsmith of his time) did something to Ba-Ado-Mishram's parsh, so I don't think it was bonded; I think it had willingly allowed itself to be contained in the fabrial of the tower. Navani assumes "perhaps something about its relationship with a human," but I think that's as off-base as VenDell's hints about Identity-free Allomancy at the beginning of Bands of Mourning. In the right direction, but not quite accurate.

I think this new chapter pretty much proves that the Sibling was the spren Melishi had bonded. It reads "Unfortunately, the Sibling had died during the Recreance." This seems pretty indisputable. The only counter evidence to this I know of is the gem archives (which do suggest the Sibling didnt die during the full Recreance we see at Feverstone), but we don't actually know the order in which the gems were imprinted or the full timeline of the abandonment. Is there anything else I'm missing? As for your idea that they were trapped in a fabrial, I think the below passage from the Stormfather makes it pretty clear that the Sibling had their oaths betrayed.

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There is … a third sibling. They are not with us. “In hiding?” No. Slumbering. “Tell me more.” No. “But—” No! Leave them alone. You hurt them enough.

This was a very interesting preview. I loved the intimate view of how different spren might see themselves philosophically. Hoping for many more spren POVs in book four!

That conversation with Dalinar had some especially juicy bits. There were Bondsmiths on Ashyn?!

He couldn't have picked a better title to get me exited.

7 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

The WoB that @Calderis posted explicitly confirms that their powers come from spren bonds, which also counts as "not of Honor."  So your head canon is in direct conflict with a WoB.  

 

Not sure what you mean by "move WoBs," but the best way to insert WoBs into your post is to pop in a quote box (the quote symbol next to the hyperlink symbol) and then use the "copy" button on Arcanum and then past it into the quote box.  The quote boxes can be moved around/deleted by using the arrows symbol on the top left of the box.  

Fabrial and Singer forms also utilize spren bonds but it has not been confirmed if those systems they utilize are of Honor or not. You're making an assumption; I think there is a decent chance he's right about the purelake fish's powers not being of Honor.

16 hours ago, Karger said:

To me "Not of Honor" but also not in a bad way.  Says Cultivation. Cultivation's magic system is old magic.  This is subjective but my it is my head cannon.

Brandon has said that the Old Magic is not a full magic system but it's own weird thing. I believe that the curse/boon system we see is related to her magic system(s) but what we've seen her and the Nightwatcher do is moreso a power than anything else.

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Questioner

How many magic systems are in The Stormlight Archive, and how many of them haven't been seen?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say the only major one you haven’t seen is Voidbinding, it depends on how you count them.  I count fabrials as one, Surgebinding as one, and Voidbinding as one.  And then the Old Magic is kind of its own weird thing.

6 hours ago, TheFoxQR said:

 

The question that was asked was "Was the magic always sickness based?", but it has always been micro-organism based. Even when we say disease based, it's not the diseases giving the power. It's the micro-organisms giving both the disease and the power.

We don't know at all if it was always micro-organism based. Personally I think there's a pretty good chance you're right but its important to note when you're making assertions.

14 hours ago, Karger said:

I have always believed that the boon and curse of old magic is what the Nightwatcher does because she needs part of your soul.  I think she takes part of your soul and gives back part from her collection.  We have seen no other boon and curses in any other Rosharan system.

We almost definitely have seen some other ones in the Greater Rosharan system at least. The disease based Ashynite magic definitely seems to go along the same ideas of "unwanted effect in exchange for wanted effect", read the below:

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Paleo (paraphrased)

Are the Ashynite magic system, in which micro organisms cause diseases and bestow powers, and the Old Magic related? You could sort of see the powers and the disease as a boon and a curse. If so, does the "Old" part come from that?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, they are related, but the name comes from the Magic actually predating spren bonds.

I love this post, really really great write up Argent. I have a few points to make in reaction to what you lay out here so let me go through them one by one:

On 5/22/2019 at 2:05 AM, Argent said:

I personally find the association between Honor and Surgebinding particularly compelling. If we define the core of Surgebinding as the act of binding Surges by way of a spren (Nahel) bond, it fits very well with Honor's intent being at least partially about bonds and oaths. Note that this doesn't conflict with the fact that Surgebinders can bond with spren of Cultivation; the kind of spren you bond with doesn't matter, what does matter is the oath and the (partial) merging of Spiritwebs between person and spren. Also note that the complete absence of Surgebinders until sometime after the creation of the Honorblades is not an issue either; the magic system can exist without anyone making use of it. It took some time for humans and spren to figure out how to access it, but that doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't there. If this doesn't sit well with you, however, you can take the route of Honor not establishing Surgebinding until after the Honorblades were created. Again, it doesn't actually matter, as this theory is mostly concerned with the mechanics behind the different magic systems.

I'm still in the camp that believes that Cultivation is just as involved with Surgebinding as Honor. While the bond and oaths are integral parts of the magic system, I find that the progression of the bond is just as core of a concept. A radiant isn't able to bind a surge if they haven't cultivated the ideals of the entities attached to that surge within themselves. I also disagree with your point here that the type of spren working within what you believe to be Honor's system doesn't matter because it seems to contradict the point you make with Renarin and Glys. If the original surges are not at least partially of Cultivation, and new Shardic influence (like Odium's) within Surgebinding adds new powers, then why would her Spren not introduce powers other than those seen in the Honorblades?

On 5/22/2019 at 2:05 AM, Argent said:

So they can use Voidlight, but what they use it for is something very similar to Surgebinding. We see Fused "fly" like the Windrunners do, we see them glide exactly like the Edgedancers, and we see them don illusions - just like Lightweavers. We also see some who grow and shape their carapace at a rapid pace - which could be a Stonewardy thing. They probably aren't binding Surges, per se, as there is no oath here, but I think this could be Odium's "corruption" of Surgebinding, much like the Regals are his "corruption" of the singer's native magical ability to form bonds with spren. Surgebinding still exists in its original form, but Odium is building on top of it - recall the trellium example from earlier. 

While they are manipulating surges in these examples, I would argue that the Fabrial system is the one that Odium corrupted. Not only do the Fused inhabit the Singer's body using a gemstone, but the fact that their power is limited in comparison to a Surgebinders is something we know is a consequence of accessing surges through mechanical means. Read the below relevant WoB:

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Blightsong

The singer forms of power: Do they utilize fabrial magic?

Brandon Sanderson

Um, no. Similar—they're based on the same kind of foundation—but no.

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Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

So… Soulcasting… is gonna really depend on whether you're using a soulcaster.

Darkness (paraphrased)

First is for a Soulcaster, second is for a Surgebinder.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

A Surgebinder is far less constrained than someone using a device accessing surges, right? A Knight Radiant is far less constrained than somebody using a mechanical means of accessing magic, and I would include Honorblades as a mechanical means of accessing a surge.

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Questioner

The Fused that wield, like--their Lashings can be a lot faster than Kaladin's are. Is it because it's based on a different planet than the Radiants?

Brandon Sanderson

Kaladin can go faster, but they are more-- they are faster over a large span. What's going on with the Fused is they have-- The way their Investiture works, it doesn't leak and they are able to use it for much longer periods of time. But they don't have access to the number of times that Kaladin can Lash himself directions and things like this, and the speed with which he can pick up speed. So in the short Kaladin is favored, in the long they're favored.

I'm working under the assumption that their inability to lash multiple times is similar to a Soulcaster's inability to be flexible in what it can transform stuff into here, but I think that's a relatively safe one. Maybe Renarin and Glys are the example of Odium corrupting Surgebinding you're looking for, as it doesn't seem like their powers have any restrictions although I don't think we have anything to compare them to.

On 5/22/2019 at 2:05 AM, Argent said:

The Original Voidbringers

Not much to talk about here, but it's worth pointing out that Odium was considered - by the Dawnsingers - to be the human god whom they brought with them from Ashyn, and that it was the powers of the Surges that led to the destruction of Ashyn. The humans there probably had a way of accessing the Surges, not through Honor or Cultivation, but through Odium instead. And upon arriving to Roshar they either abandoned or lost this ability. This would've been Odium's magic system, not the hacks and extensions to the ones native to Roshar. I'd argue that this is...

Voidbinding

Okay, but what is Voidbinding? If it's not what the Regals do, and it's not what the Fused do, and if what Renarin does is a related to but not exactly it, then what is it? Well, if Surgebinding - the binding of Surges- is about forming a bond (through Honor and oaths) with a spren, a manifestation of the natural forces of the world, a manifestation of the Surges... Then wouldn't Voidbinding be the binding of the Void? Forming a bond with Odium? Maybe there are oaths involved (though they are kind of Honor's thing, so maybe not), maybe it's something that fits either literally or figuratively with the idea of giving up your Passion, giving it to Odium. Instead of Investiture shoring up cracks in your Spiritweb, you damage your own soul, or you give up parts of your soul, and invite Odium in, but what you give up is not gone, it forms a connection (Connection?) with Odium, a conduit for his power. And in return you gain access to the Surges, but not in the same way a Surgebinder would - the forces are the same, but the effects are different. This is what the Voidbinding chart shows! Odium's number may be nine, but there are ten levels of Voidbinding - each "major glyph" in the chart represents a Voidbinding Level (akin to the Surgebinding Orders), and each "minor glyph" represents one of the Surges; only, recall, the powers granted by Odium are different, so their glyphs are twisted versions of their "holy" counterparts. This, I posit, is also exactly what Amaram was doing when he was merging with Yelig-nar.

I agree that Voidbinding was used on Ashyn, and while I like your ideas on Voidbinding here, I also believe that it was a corruption of a system that already existed. There is one quote particularly relevant to this idea:

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I’m not certain yet how the ten levels of Voidbinding or its cousin the Old Magic fit into this paradigm, if indeed they can. My research suggests that, indeed, there should be another series of abilities that is even more esoteric than the Voidbindings. Perhaps the Old Magic fits into those, though I am beginning to suspect that it is something entirely different.

Perhaps people on Ashyn, in a manner similar to what you propose with people forming a bond with Odium in return for power, could also bond Cultivation for a more formal power than what we've seen from her in return for a curse in a way similar to what Dalinar does. Within this model I'm thinking that the Dawnshards (whom I believe to have been the Unmade before they were corrupted) were entities that existed within and were permeated with this esoteric magic system and could bind people in the manner you suggest before Odium's influence turned them into weapons of destruction. Maybe the Nightwatcher is an entity similar to what the Dawnshards used to be. I find it interesting that Lift can sense both the effects of the Unmade as well as the influence of the Nightwather on people and I think it may be indicative of some of what I'm thinking. All this would make the below quote make a lot of sense within your theory, especially with your thoughts on Yelig-nar and Amaram:

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"Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above."

Very interesting that the author of the poem of Ista chose to use 'bind' instead of 'bond' here.

I also think that, within this very speculative model, the Oathpact may be involved. Perhaps Honor worked within the boundaries of the Ashyn magic systems in an extremely intricate way, forming a direct bond with the Heralds (Ashynites) to grant them the boon of locking away the Fused but also cursing them to Damnation. Im just spitballing here but I find all these ideas very interesting, what do you guys think?

2 minutes ago, Argent said:

(which I agree is not a Bondsmith-specific thing, but I don't think the text contradicts that either, hence my confusion)

It does here, I thought you're comments were based off that, my apologies:

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"Our revelation is fueled by the theory that the Unmade can perhaps be captured like ordinary spren. It would require a special prison. And Melishi."

5 minutes ago, Argent said:

I kind of glanced over that the first time around. After a more careful reread, I can't say I am a fan. It's certainly a possibility, and I think... @Calderis had a similar theory.

This theory was inspired by Calderis' and I discussed these ideas with him before posting so its not by accident that they are similar theories.

Quote

You get pretty much the same results by simply "deactivating" the gemheart, which seems like far fewer steps to me. 

I agree, "deactivation" of the gemheart could be a possibility within the theory if you mean deactivation as a loss of the gemstone's realmatic functionality entirely, including holding stormlight (which itself is a kind of physical change). They basically wouldn't even be gemhearts at that point in a sense, just hunks of crystal. If you mean deactivation of the gemstones as a loss of the Singer's ability to use their gemstones then I dont agree. In that case they would still hold the value that past Rosharan humans went out of their way to obtain and it just doesn't make sense that all of Rosharan society would suddenly ignore that value to the point of all knowledge of the gemstones being lost. I just dont see another (in Brandons words) "good reason people just don't think that [singers] have a gemheart".

23 minutes ago, Argent said:

and achieving that by way of trapping Ba-Ado-Mishram has been about as solid of a theory as we get these days, and codifying this process by saying that it has to do the singers' gemhearts sounds like a reasonable way of explaining it all. I am not too hot on the actual physical gemheart being removed, but some kind of magical separation sounds alright.

I think I made clear in the first part that I dont believe it was the trapping of Ba-Ado-Mishram that caused the damage to the Singers, just that it was involved (obviously). I think that the line in that relevant gem archive epigraph was a red herring due to the below quote and that Melishi somehow used Ba-Ado-Mishram's Connection to the Singers to destroy them either during or after the imprisonment.

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"So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address."

Edit: I also want to add that the trapping of an Unmade doesnt seem to be a Bondsmith only power despite what the gem archive says. Its important to remember that they didnt fully understand this process at the time. I agree that it is definitely possible that a Bondsmith is needed but I personally think that quote is a red herring due to what Shallan learns and the wording during that scene:

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Re-Shephir was terrified of it happening again. The imprisonment had been unexpected, presumed impossible. And it had been done by a Lightweaver like Shallan, who had understood this creature.

And later during the end of Oathbringer:

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“Shallan saw one of the Unmade in the tower,” he whispered. “When she got close, it was afraid, but I don’t think the Thrill comprehends like it did. You see, it can only be bested by someone who deeply, sincerely, understands it.” He lifted the gemstone above his head, and—one last time—embraced the Thrill.

Im curious as to what about my logic for the disappearance of the Listener gemhearts you disagree with. On top of the evidence I provided in the OC there is a precedent for physical changes being a natural consequence of spiritual ones so it seems pretty within reason.

1 hour ago, Argent said:

I think there is strong evidence that the Stormfather was the only Bondsmith spren bonded during the Recreance (and, by extension, during the False Desolation and the singer genocide). Does that change much in your theory?

I did discuss this with @Calderis yesterday and I havent been totally convinced but that might just be me being stubborn. Is there evidence other than the timeline on the gem archives or the below quotes possible implications on the nature of the Sibling's bondsmith that I should be aware of? If not I do have arguments against those pieces of evidence.

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But as for the Bondsmiths, they had members only three, which number was not uncommon for them; nor did they seek to increase this by great bounds, for during the times of Madasa, only one of their order was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru and its thrones. Their spren was understood to be specific, and to persuade them to grow to the magnitude of the other orders was seen as seditious.

Even if Melishi wasnt bonded to the Sibling the parts of the theory that involved what exactly was done to the Singers still hold and I do still think that Melishi's actions would have been against his oaths.

1 minute ago, Doomstick said:

Oof

Introduction

It's just about time for another extra-long Blightsong theory after the latest few waves of new WoB; the nature of the Parshmen and what was done to them has always been one of my favorite mysteries in the series and Oathbringer brought us to the very edge of it. After reviewing some related WoB I'm pretty sure I can fill in at least some of that mystery with some pretty plausible ideas. Let me know what you guys think!

Abstract

Melishi

First lets start off with what we already know. The event that transformed the Singers into what we saw at the beggining of the series took place at the end of a conflict between the last generation of Knights Radiant and a group of Singers lead by the Unmade Ba-Ado-Mishram. Innovation on the side of the Unmade, an ability to Connect to the Parshmen and facilitate forms of power, pushed certain scholar's within the orders of Knights Radiant to devise a before unheard of strategy to defeat the forces of Odium. They planned to trap Ba-Ado-Mishram in a gemstone like the one that Dalinar used to trap Nergaoul in an attempt to break the Connection she had to the Singers and ensure an easy defeat of the enemy forces once their leader and powers were incapacitated. This almost as far as our knowledge goes, but an epigraph in Oathbringer implies that maybe some unintended consequences of this imprisonment is what destroyed the Singer, read it below:

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We are uncertain the effects this will have on the parsh. At the very least, it should deny them forms of power. Melishi is confident, but Naze-daughter-Kuzodo warns of unintended side effects.

While this may be the case, I have become certain that this is a red herring due to the little bit of history from this time frame we do have past the above point, read the below epigraph from both the in-world and real world Words of Radiance:

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"So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address."

This is interesting not only because there seemed to be a change of plans from simply imprisoning Ba-Ado-Mishram and defeating the Singers in battle, but also because we can say for certain that trapping an Unmade is not a Bondsmith specific power as evidenced by Shallan's view of Re-Shephir's past. If this was not what Melishi did to defeat the Singers then what could he have done to destroy them? Lets take a look at how the Stormfather describes Bondsmith powers to get an understanding of what could have taken place here:

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Yours is the power Ishar once held. Before he was Herald of Luck, they called him Binder of Gods. He was the founder of the Oathpact. No Radiant is capable of more than you. Yours is the power of Connection, of joining men and worlds, minds and souls. Your Surges are the greatest of all, though they will be impotent if you seek to wield them for mere battle.

The wording here is interesting to me. What Melishi did seems to be the opposite of what the Stormfather is describing, he cut the Connection the Singers have to each other and destroyed an entire people with them. Syl had something very relevant to say about the restoration of the Singers in the below quote:

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“The Everstorm,” Syl said. “Power has filled the holes in their souls, bridging the gaps. They didn’t just wake, Kaladin. They’ve been healed, Connection refounded, Identity restored. There’s more to this than we ever realized. Somehow when you conquered them, you stole their ability to change forms. You literally ripped off a piece of their souls and locked it away.”

It seems as if whatever Melishi did to destroy the Singers was seriously destructive in nature and I have some ideas on what exactly he did to them realmatically.

Nature of the Singers

A recent WoB tipped me off as to what exact function of the Singer's was destroyed by Melishi, read it below:

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Krios (paraphrased)

If you have a form of manipulating your Identity and a form of healing, are you able to shapeshift or even evolve your body like growing wings?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You'd have to do some real work on your spirit web to make that work. It'd take more work than you're implying, but the Parshendi for instance are doing this. It'll take a little more work, it's not just blanking your Identity. Hemalurgy would make it very easy, but also very evil. But what you want to achieve is possible.

It seems as if a Singer's Identity is malleable and that their system of trapping a spren with their gemheart is how they change it. Also interesting to note is that Hemalurgy is also able to do something similar. After thinking about it a bit, I realized we have seen something extremely similar to the Parshmen before using that very system. Read the below WoB:

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NinjaMeTimbers

How intelligent is a mistwraith? Could you raise and train mistwraiths like dogs or horses, controlling what forms they take by the bones you give them? Would you be able to train yourself a horsewraith steed by giving it only the bones of a horse?

Brandon Sanderson

This is feasible. One thing to keep in mind is that mistwraiths are people who have a blockage between the Physical and the Cognitive Realm, messing with their ability to think. Think of them as mentally-stunted people. There's enough there to train, but then you have to dig into the ethics of it…

This is pretty much a matching description of what we see with the Singers, only missing the whole magic physical object component... or is it? If you think about it, gemhearts and the Hemalurgic spikes responsible for the Kandra blessings seem to be very similar in nature with one very slight difference, gemhearts are a natural phenomenon resulting from a leak of Investiture from the Spiritual Realm to the Physical one. Read the below WoB and passages to get a quick understanding of Singer gemhearts and their nature:

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Viper (paraphrased)

The gemhearts/stormgems/whatever that are grown inside the beasts in Way of Kings ... is that the same as the way atium is grown inside geodes in the Pits of Hathsin?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It's similar. The Pits are an area where there's like a leak from the Spiritual Realm into the Physical. That's what happens there.

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Questioner

I was wondering, in Stormlight, what kind of gem the [singer] gemhearts were, or do they just, do they hold Stormlight well?

Brandon Sanderson

So, this is a good question. This is one that people have been asking me since the first book, if they had one, and I've finally kind of confirmed it in book three. So the reason people don't think [singers] have a gemheart is it is milky white, and looks like bone.

Questioner

But aren't their bones red?

Brandon Sanderson

Their bones, well-- Their bones are red-- not completely. If you're going to pull out the bone, what you're going to see-- I'll explain it in the next book. So what you're going to do is, if you break open the bone, you're going to find this white-- It's not marrow but it is, yeah I guess it's marrow. Anyway at the center kind of in their sternum there is a gemheart there, but it is fused to the bone and it is grown into the bone, and you have to kind of snap it open and find it inside, and it kind of just looks like marrow, but there's a gemheart in there. And it kind of relates to some stuff in Dragonsteel that I'm not gonna get into. But you'll see in the next books. But there's a good reason people just don't think that [singers] have a gemheart.

This whole WoB is very interesting to me, particularly the connection to Dragonsteel and that last sentence. First let me touch on the Dragonsteel bit here is a passage from the released sample chapters that details the main character encountering the bones of the Dragonsteel equivalent to the Parshendi while in the caverns of the Shattered Plains:

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As Jerick turned, his eyes fell on a set of bones slightly paler than those around it, the remnants of its foreign armor hanging limply. Jerick approached slowly. Sho Del corpses were extremely rare, though Jerick didn’t know why. From watching up above, it appeared that just as many Sho Del were thrown into the chasms as men. Perhaps the demons came searching for their fallen dead, though Jerick’s mind rebelled at the thought. He couldn’t associate such an apparently noble act with the monsters he had watched kill his companions for the last four months.
The skull was alarmingly similar to that of a man. The creature’s bones were fractured, but not to the extent of the human skeletons around it. And, Jerick was drawn to them. There was a power to the skeleton, and he felt his skin grow cold despite the heat. He wanted to reach out. He did reach out. To touch the bones, to feel the power.

This makes me more certain that gemhearts are more than just gems that allow a singer to transform, I think that they are tied to their other Cognitive abilities as well as the race in this world are also able to communicate telepathically similar to the rhythms. I also find the color similarity between these bones and a gemheart very interesting.

For my second point about the above WoB, why would there be an assumption that Singers dont have gemhearts among humans. Wouldnt some physician be able to find it in a Parshmen at some point? This is even more confusing when you consider that this seems to be a lost knowledge, read the below quote from Venli:

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“Eshonai…?” she whispered, and nudged the corpse again. Demid gasped. Touching the bodies of the fallen was taboo. The old songs spoke of days when humans had hacked apart listener corpses, searching for gemhearts. Leave the dead to peace instead; it was their way.

All of this together leads me to believe that the pieces of a Singer's soul that Melishi ripped away (ones that seems similar to what gives a Kandra's sapience and blessing) are the ones directly tied to the Singer's gemheart and that on top of the physical change wrought to their bodies that made them more like dullform they also had their very gemhearts taken from them like a Kandra losing its second spike. While I cant tell you exactly how Melishi did this all, I can say it did still likely involved Ba-Ado-Mishram seeing as how the Last Legion, Singers that had abandoned their Connection to their gods, were left unaffected.

Consequences of Division

My emphasis on how similar this all is to Hemalurgy should tell you just how evil what Melishi did to the Parshmen is. The very nature of this act seems to spit in the face of the Bondsmith oaths, leading one to question how his spren managed through this. I'm sure you all know I'm about to suggest the Sibling was involved because of how obvious it is but let me back up this point with a few more WoB pointing towards its involvement:

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Jozomby

I was mostly trying to find out if the Sibling was bonded, and if the break in the bond is what caused the Sibling to go into slumber

Brandon Sanderson

Let's just say this is a RAFO with the promise that I intend to answer the question relatively quickly.

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wiresegal

In OB, you explained that the Singers have four sexes. I was wondering... Can the Singers have genders other than those four, like humans? Even as simple as just not going with male, female, or malen/femalen. Could a transgender Singer use their ability to shift forms to change their biological reality? And, finally, could a Spren be non-binary, if it wasn't personified in a typical male/female way?

Brandon Sanderson

In the cosmere as a whole, a person's perception of themselves has a lot of power over both their Spiritual and Physical forms. It is possible, with Investiture, to change their biology to match Cognitive perceptions--and while this could be easier for some races (like the Singers) it's not outside plausibility for any race.

There are non-binary spren, actually--and you should be meeting one important one quite soon in the books.

A strain between Melishi and the Sibling's bond also makes sense within the context of the degradation of Urithiru and the Sibling's apparent "withdrawal from men" described in the gem archive.

Conclusion

So what do you guys think, is there a relationship between what happened to the Singers and their gemhearts? Did Melishi end up harming the sibling in the process? Feel free to poke holes anywhere you see them. Have a good day folks!