Ati

Personally, I think we're going a little far if we're judging Wayne for getting some action. Unless you want to suggest that he was lying, actually knew there was a battle going on and decided to continue playing tonsil hockey anyway. Does anyone actually think this is the case?

So, I actually signed on expecting to create a new thread somewhat similar to this one as I finally figured out what bothered me about Wayne in this book.

First, let me say that in my opinion, Wayne is being done a disservice by some of the posts here, so I'll offer a brief defense. Many have picked on WaterTowerGate as a reason to dislike Wayne. I happen to disagree. Pretend, just for a moment, that Steris hadn't grown as a character since Alloy. Then pretend you're Wayne. Do you really not do everything you can to stop that wedding? Wax had clearly been smitten with Marasi, and clearly would have been miserable with Steris. Now, we've gotten to know Steris better, but Wayne, hasn't (because the dislike is mutual.) So I would offer that first as perspective.

Secondly, the phrase "paved with good intentions" was used here. And I think many who are upset about the water tower might agree with it. Generally though, we use that phrase to mean one of two things, "you didn't think it through, dummy" or "my value system disagrees with yours." Here's the thing, Wayne did think it through (mostly). He's decided that it is acceptable to break the law to save a friend. If you disagree with that value judgment, fine, but at least recognize that it could be a valid conclusion. (The means used, of course, are something else entirely .)

Anyway, on to the Wayne bashing. I loved Wayne in the first two books. I viewed him as a character of intelligence and depth who was delicate enough that he felt he had to hide it beneath a "Wayne-like" exterior. He has always had some of the other characters convinced that the exterior is the real Wayne. In this book, I felt like he convinced Brandon as well. The scene that I think bothered me the most was the one where they infiltrated the set's repair site of the airship. Wayne actually took the time to manipulate an unconscious body and joke around while his life and those of three of the people closest to him were on the line. I don't recall him doing anything similar in the previous books and it's the first time I can recall that I can't even sympathize with his actions, nevermind agree with them.

Or I could be reading way too much into Ym and Renarin both having impaired vision. But what does a true Sharder do other than read way too much into everything?

 

Hear hear.

I think the idea of the surges being used differently is fun, and to the extent that Numb describes, is something we will see.  As to the glasses part...I would be pretty impressed if Brandon could write that in in a way that felt like it tied well into the nature of spren.  So far, the system we've had described to us is based on spren being drawn to individuals who: a) are "broken" or "cracked" and, epitomize, or seek to epitomize the characteristic that spren is tied to.  I'll accept that there may be other factors.  I think Brandon is strongly hinting at some sort of heredity or network factor at work, or just a manipulation of the system, if we look at the Kholin family.  Does anyone have other thoughts on how spren choose the person they're bonding with?  In this case, though I appreciate your rationale as to them having a different perspective (which may still hold true), I'd be very surprised if it was because of the glasses.  If it is though, it may be worth noting that Truthwatchers could end up being more common among (wealthier?  not sure of the relative cost of glasses on Roshar) older craftsman.  Ym's need for glasses may have been tied to the visual focus required for his field of work.  

I see this as a snapping control over his temper, which has been building throughout the book. I find it hard to believe "The guy I hate who tried to kill me and my father DEFINITELY wants to kill me and my father so I'll kill him" is equally distressing as Shallan abusive father/broken family or Kaladin's messed-up childhood with Roshone, losing Tien etc.

Maybe Sureblood's death made him snap? (I'm half-joking).

 

Also, when Adolin tells Sadeas that he's not the better man that his father thinks he is, he doesn't make it sound like this is something new.  I'm inclined to think that Adolin "snapped" prior to this scene in the investiture sense.  

 

I don't know if it made him snap, but I think it almost certainly contributed to Sadeas biting it.  Based on what we hear from both Dalinar and Adolin, the bonds with the Ryshadium run deep.  My best guess would be somewhere between someone having a beloved pet die and someone's bonded spren dying.  Relatively traumatic, either way.  Might contribute to a guy doing something...rash... 

The only argument I would against this is that far too many Kholins seem to have become Radiants already. Otherwise, yeah it's plausible. However - we have yet to see Cultivation's magic system, or Voidbinding, so if it is indicative of anything, it may not necessarily be Surgebinding.

 

 

Ketek, I had noticed this as well.  By my count, we have Dalinar, Renarin, Jasnah, Elhokar (he sees spren, at least), possibly Adolin.  So far as I know, this accounts for everyone with Kholin blood.  I can only think of a couple reasons why this would be.  

 

1: These are the people Brandon has been able to get "on screen", making it convenient to use them.  I think Brandon is far too adept a writer for this to be the case.  

2: Spren recognize either bloodlines or tradition as a factor when bonding a surgebinder.  

 

[spoiler]We've seen that two of the three magic systems on Scadrial are hereditary.  If this is a factor on Roshar, it could have interesting implications for the other shardworlds.[/spoiler]

3: It could be the result of some form of deal or arrangement.  Possibly Dalinar's Nightwatcher boon or something similar.  

 

 

 

edit: can someone tell me if that spoiler isn't being hidden, and if so, how to fix it?  First time trying that and not sure if it was done properly...

 

If this turns out to be the case, I think you have to wonder even more about Gavilar...

I think we have to disagree here. Elhokar gets angry easily, and is petulant. He's like a spoiled child that never grew up when he's demanding Kaladin's execution because he feels jealous. Maybe he recognizes this and is striving to fix it, but he has definite character issues. He's not a well-meaning bumbling incompetent, he's a well-meaning bumbling incompetent that has deep seated insecurity and jealousy issues and enjoys forgetting the "well-meaning" point in the heat of moment and only remembers when he's drunk. Without Dalinar, his rule would be unmitigated disaster... so what's the point of keeping him around as king? He brings nothing to the role. He should abdicate.

I agree with this.  I also agree with Aether's point that he appears to be on a path towards improvement.  Worst case scenario though, based on your point, Moogle, Elhokar was drunk A LOT at the end of WoR.  Could be the silver lining here.  

 

Hey Vasteel, interesting question.  My thoughts on his heir...one word, Amaram.  And yeah, I agree, his widow will likely try for some particularly nasty form of revenge, I'd guess.  Who knows, we've seen nothing to indicate that Amaram has married between Gavilar's murder and present day.  They could even end up with a political union.  That would be one seriously scary couple.  

Really fun catch, but I'm almost positive this was just done by lashing, which would be just as incomprehensible to Adolin as awakening.  My guess would be Brandon just teasing, otherwise I think there would be some really obscure easy to miss reference about color draining from another object, and I haven't seen it.  

Good post.  Great name.  

I think a couple of these may be iffy (are we sure Sons of Honor don't want to restore the radiants, I suspect Gavilar may not have been the first with the visions) but in general, a lot of interesting points.  In particular, not only did Nalan fail to come to Gavilar's rescue at the feast, he appears to have been in some way complicit in the assassination plot.  His companion notes that he, presumably Szeth, has his lord's own blade.  To me, this implies knowledge of Szeth's presence and purpose before things even got started.  Will be curious to see how others weigh in on these.  

Darn it EMT, the trolley problem and its relatives have always given me a headache.  If Brandon reads this thread and gets an idea for some kind of runaway Chull trolley for book three, you and I are going to have words.

Very minor quibble in that, if I remember correctly, when Kaladin leaps the chasm in his Epic Leap of Epic Awesomeness  they weren't being shot at by archers (though there had been some earlier).  The Parshendi were there without bows just waiting for them to set the bridge.  Regardless, agree wholeheartedly with the rest.  Hear hear. 

Like Syl says, it's not the same. He didn't attack Parshendi. He protected the abandoned men, and Dalinar, even though he hated them as Lighteyes. He did that because it was right to do so. Those men were about to die, betrayed by allies. It was absolutely right to protect the ones he hated, and he did so because it was right.  This ideal is more of an exploration of what had done in WoK.

 

EMT, I sort of disagree on this part.  Yes, his intent was to save the abandoned men.  And I agree, that intent is probably what matters most to Syl and the bond, at least right now.  However, he did, quite literally attack the Parshendi.  At the end of WoK, we see Kaladin consider the Parshendi as people to a degree that no one else (that we've seen) had.  And the implications of that combined with his slaughter of them to protect the Kholin army weighs on him.  I think it's all a matter of his moral compass.  So sure, he acted to protect, which is good, but I doubt it would be safe for him to disregard the costs of his actions just because of good intent.  Note also, that this has been a repeating theme for him with as he often goes back to Lirin's statement that you can't kill to protect.  

Great point Arondell. I think there would have to be a hierarchy to them.  Kaladin has already pointed out conflicts to Syl regarding his fight with the Parshendi at the end of WoK.  I think her responses and actions imply that the way to prioritize them exists and she just doesn't remember it yet.  Though it probably also isn't the most pleasant topic for her to begin with.  Anyway, so far, my bet would be that the Oaths are said in order of priority.  Either that or the first one trumps the rest and they're in some other order.  I have a tough time imagining any of the others taking precedence over the first because in a sense, the first seems to implicitly encompass them.

 

As to the Roshone question, I suspect that it depends on the context. My guess, if the danger Roshone was in was being driven by evil or even neutral intent, Kaladin would step in to save his bacon.  On the other hand, if someone was righteously (note, as someone mentioned above, the distinction between legally and righteously) smiting Roshone, Kaladin would be free to sit there and watch with a bowl of popcorn.  Or whatever the Roshar equivalent of popcorn is.  Not sure that Brandon's addressed this.  Seems important...

Shouldn't Taln's Oathgate, the Stonewards' one, be the gate in Kholinar that Jasnah has failed to open?  

 

I find the theory curious. It's possible at the very least. I'm pretty sure there are WoB saying it is indeed strange only one Herald died in such a battle as the one Kalak described. And Kalak notices that Jezrien is acting strange, looking cowardly.

Aleksiel, 

 

Personally, I wouldn't read too much into Jezrien looking cowardly.  They are all most likely feeling cowardly, they just abandoned a post that they've held for multiple milennia, if I read it right.  Kalak certainly sounds to me like he's feeling cowardly based on what we get of his inner monologue, and consider it, Jezrien is supposed to be the herald exemplifying honor.  Leaving a man behind, and abandoning their duty based on the idea that having left that man may preserve the world has to seriously chafe against his conscience.  In my mind, it's no surprise that he seems to have lost his mind by the time of the books even without any other potential influence. 

This one could be explained easily. Taln's location may have been known (which is highly likely, since the Heralds probably planned the battle). One of the Heralds could've seen Taln fall. There could be some things that indicate the death of a Herald (a flash of light, a boom of sound, a feeling of a lost connection, a magical announcement, etc). 

 

 

Thoroughly amused by the mental scenario that last one brings up.  

 

"Your attention please.  Yes Nalan, and you.  You, the thunderclast over there.  Yes, please stop fighting for a moment, if you would.  Talenlelat'Elin, Stonesinew has fallen.  That will be all, you may resume."

 

Anyway, I love all the theories people come up with on here.  Can't say I'm persuaded by this one, but fun to read nonetheless.

You're right when it comes to one's perspective, but slaughter over a border dispute? I don't see any KR fighting against other humans using surgebinding for something as trivial as that. Unless there is more going on there that we don't understand, such as an alterior motive of Amaram's, which Heleran was trying to stop.

 

Does anyone else find this whole scene a little suspect?  I'm with you on questioning ulterior motives, Vasteel, but I'm questioning those of whoever gave that shardbearer his instructions.  He basically used an Assassin-in-White approach, attempt to kill your target, but first make a huge mess killing a bunch of other people in the area.  Sure, Szeth pulls it off, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a horribly ineffective way to go about an assassination.  If someone was really concerned about Amaram and had a full shardbearer at their disposal to get rid of him, is this really the method they would most likely use?  It also seems to me that the shardbearer may not have been the most skilled guy ever to have worn shardplate.  Almost makes me wonder if sending him was some form of expensive and elaborate feint... One way or another, whole thing seems a bit fishy to me.  

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You stole my reading list Sacredhonour!  Going to have to check out Susanna Clarke.  She's the only one on your list that I haven't read besides Malazan.  You may also enjoy The (Sort of) Dark Mage, Waldo Rabbit by Nelson Chereta.  It's not the same type as the above, more of a fantasy spoof that I thought was well done.  Read it at the same time as Will Wight though, and enjoyed both authors' works thoroughly.  

Confused, I actually think the "deleted content" that you added up there is my favorite part.  Very interesting ideas. 

May or may not turn into anything, but great initial finds.  Will try to take a look when I have time.  

Confused, it seems like you're saying that the Heralds led to a concept of surgebinding, which in turn created spren capable of the act.  If this was the case, it seems most likely to me that we would be seeing "surgespren".  Instead, we have honorspren, "liespren", highspren, etc.  It seems likely to me that these spren would have all predated the Heralds.  If I'm interpreting what you're suggesting correctly, I think one extra link of cause/effect may make it tighter.  

 

I pretty sure I've seen it suggested on one of the threads that each of the spren capable of a bond responded to the characteristics of a Herald.   I could accept an argument that people identified a "primary" characteristic for each Herald.  We see in the current timeline that they still seem to do something along these lines.  Perhaps there was an idea that the Herald's gained their powers due to an embodiment of each of those characteristics, in turn, granting those same powers to the spren tied to those same characteristics.   This seems like an extra layer of complexity relative to what you're suggesting (unless I'm misreading, if so, apologies), but I think it's also slightly more in keeping with what we know, so far, of the mechanisms governing spren. Still speculative, but an interesting idea nonetheless.   Cheers.
 

 

edit: kaellok, your post reminded me of the bondsmiths.  Not sure how they would fit into the above system.  They seem just a bit specific for it.  

Strong disagreement.  I'm fine with GRRM never publishing another book.  Maybe I'm disappointed that he lost his way and then lied to fans about it for 6 years, but that's ok.  The fact is that he had a few pretty good books (I mentioned that the first three were good already), but 4 and 5 straight up prove he's not 'great.'  If his world-building were as superior as you claim, then more people would like parts of the world that aren't Westeros; even my friends that still enjoy the books hate the east and the desert.  His prose isn't particularly stellar either; it's definitely not bad, but is more what you might call functional.  It's not beautiful like Rothfuss or invisible like Sanderson's.  The story is less and less engaging as it stall as sputters and the initial sympathetic characters are killed off and replaced by new cast members to await their own turn to die; it takes great glee in 'faking out' readers, leaving it a long, boring guessing game of "who is going to die next?"

 

While such a game may be entertaining, it has little lasting appeal to me.  I don't find enjoyment in reading about boring characters being bad people just because they're bad people, especially if they remain virtually unchanged throughout until they eventually die--with Jaime Lannister being apparently the one exception.  It's fine if you like the books, or love them; there is a lot to like in the first three.  But using a variation of the formula from the Friday the 13th or Nightmare on Elm Street movies is hardly worthy of the descriptor 'great'--and after five books, he has proven that that's his forte.

 

Edit: GRRM is, without a doubt, not superior at world-building or story-telling than everyone else mentioned, as you claim, and led to me writing this snarly diatribe in response.

 

Nicely done Kaellok.  I'm going to start a movement to have this be the cover blurb and kindle sample for anything GRRM writes from now on.   Yay for protagonist russian roulette!

Awesome post.  Some of this is pretty speculative, but I love the thought process here.  

 

There is one concept in particular though that I would be very curious to see how you would incorporate.  It seems, at least to me, that spren exhibit different levels of intelligence in Shadesmar versus Roshar even for the same spren.  Almost a Taravangian effect, but based on location (or realm) rather than randomized.  Do you think the concept of a spren being an instinctive creature in one realm but a (in some cases) highly intelligent being in Shadesmar could have an impact on this idea?  Or disagree with my interpretation of spren intelligence?

Confused,

 

Agree on some, disagree on others.  It may be worth noting, though, that Bakker's Prince of Nothing series is riddled with over the top crude sexuality and sexual violence.  Caveat Emptor.  As with all of these, it's a matter of taste.  I personally found the first three books to be a painful slog that I continued only because it seemed so likely that there must be a payoff in the form of a significant climactic ending...at some point in the trilogy.  I was wrong.  I will grant that he has good prose.