lichie

Why does everyone assume that someone has to "break" before they can form a bond with a spren? Where did that idea come from????

I really doubt this. What reason is there to believe that the heralds would change? And why wouldn't the other heralds seem any different? Nale and Shalash don't seem to be acting any different.

It all has to do with perception and intent. It is made clear that before Gavilar's assassination, Dalinar was kind of a drunk who pretty much just followed his brother, and wasn't much a of leader. But after his brother's death, he is inspired to be more like his brother. His intent changes and he truly dedicates himself to leading Alethkar, and that is why he starts getting the visions.

 

You should read what I wrote here: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/7286-theory-on-forming-the-nahel-bond-intent-and-squires/

 

Basically, you attract the attention of a spren to bond with (i.e. the stormfather) by believing and demonstrating a certain Ideal, not by just saying some magic words or reading some magic book.

Weren't the two Orders who got rid of their shards at Feverstone Keep Windrunners and Stonewards though?

 

I completely forgot that there were only 2 orders of Knights in the vision, so yes you are right. I wasn't nearly as confident about that part of the theory as the first part, which is that the Shin people are the descendants of the Stonewards.

Contrary to the other theory about the Stone shaman here on these forums, I believe the people of Shinnovar descend from Stonewards. The correlation is pretty obvious, considering that the Shin people revere stone very highly. But I also believe that they may go as far as to worship Taln, the Herald of the Stonewards, almost as if he is their God (I’m using the term “God” very loosely). Because the Shin kept the remaining Honorblades after the Last Desolation, they must know that Taln was the only one of the Heralds who returned to Damnation to uphold the Oathpact, and this is why they worship him. Szeth was declared truthless because for him to claim that the voidbringers (and the next desolation) are returning, he is claiming that Taln must have failed them in Damnation, therefore speaking blasphemy toward their God.

 

I think it may also be possible that the Stonewards still exist in Shinnovar, retaining their Surgebinding powers (and spren) even after the day of Recreance. I do not think the Knights Radiant themselves broke their Oaths, killing their spren. Instead, I think their spren were killed when the Heralds of their Order broke their own Oathpact by not returning to Damnation. This would explain why in Dalinar’s vison at Feverstone Keep, seemingly all of the Knights abandoned their blades at the same time. If it was up to the Knights to betray the Oaths on their own, it would be very unlikely for all of them to “betray” their oaths at the exact same time. If this is true, it may mean that because Taln did not abandon the Oathpact, that the spren of the Stonewards did not die. It is possible that the remaining Knights of the Stonewards then gathered the Honorblades and retreated to Shinnovar.

I'm pretty sure that at the end od WoR, Teft mentions to Kaladin that he saw other members of Bridge Four glowing during the battle against the Parshendi. It was possibly one of the reasons that Skar and Drehy(?) were able to hold Adolin, in full Shardplate, from falling off the edge of the plateau. So I don't think that it's just Lopen,

On the other hand (see my joke?), I could definitely see Lopen becoming part of a different Order of Knights Radiant.

 

Ooooh I forgot about them catching Adolin. That would actually make a lot of sense.

This is an extension to the theories about squires found in this thread: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/forum/54-words-of-radiance-discussion/

 

From the epigraph of chapter 54 of Words of Radiance, we have:

 

There came also sixteen of the order of Windrunners, and with them a considerable number of squires, and finding in that place the Skybreakers dividing the innocent from the guilty, there ensued a great debate.

-From Words of Radiance, chapter 28, page 3

 

This quote, combined with a quote from Dalinar’s vision at the Purelake,

 

“Beyond him, the fight began in earnest, water splashing, rock grinding. Soldiers approached bearing hammers,and surprisingly, these men now also glowed with Stormlight, though far more faintly.”

-Chapter 4 of (the real) Word of Radiance

 

heavily implies that loyal followers of a Knight Radiant can gain access to powers granted by Stormlight, and that the Windrunners are one of the Orders to have such squires. At the end of Words of Radiance, Lopen is able to absorb Stormlight and use it to heal his arm. I think it is pretty obvious that that this indicates that he is the first of Bridge Four to become a true squire. But that leaves the question of why he is the first. There is nothing to show that Lopen is any more loyal to Kaladin than any of the others in Bridge Four.

 

This leads me to reconsider the way the Nahel bond and its corresponding Oaths/Ideals work. We know from WoB that Perception and Intent are very important to Investiture in all of the books in the Cosmere:

 

Q:   So then that's why at one point Shallan requires ten heartbeats and now she doesn't.

A:   Right, just like — it's the exact same reason why Kaladin's forehead wounds don't heal, because he views himself as need— as having those, somewhere deep inside of him, and that can't heal until that goes away. And it's the same reason why in Warbreaker, when you bring something to life your intention, rather than really what you say, is what matters. It's all about perception.

 

So this is the meat of my theory: The Nahel bond is not about oaths, but Intent. The oaths, except for possibly the first Ideal, are not actually concretely defined, but representations of the Intent of each Herald. Each Herald/Order has a purpose but that purpose doesn’t necessarily have to be defined, but some Orders have additional Ideals defined to provide an explicit outline or reminder of their purpose. This is further supported by another section of the WoB:

 

Q:  How many oaths can a Radiant swear?

A:  There is an upper-limit/threshold to the number of oaths a Radiant may make. By the end of WoR, Shallan is a step higher than Kaladin.

 

Not completely sure on this one: He said that at one point Shallan may have said all the oaths for her order (or may have been capable of saying all of the oaths by the end of the book) but has since regressed due to "memory loss/repression."  

 

Regarding Dalinar: He said that Dalinar has had a bond with the Stormfather "for a while." He also only said one oath at the top of the Urithiru tower, not two. Dalinar conveyed a single idea in that particular oath.

 

Brandon also clarified that the oaths, with the exception of the first ideal, are not restricted to specific words. Rather, a specific idea must be conveyed for the oath to be accepted.

 

This is why at the end of Words of Radiance, Pattern tells Shallan that as a Lightweaver, she only has one Ideal; this possibly means that the Lightweavers (and maybe even Shallash herself) chose not to define their purpose in such a concrete way. Pattern implies that she has said all of the words that she is required to say, but still has truths (i.e. some aspects of the the full Intent of the Lightweavers) to fully discover.

 

This is why some spren are attracted to humans even before they even begin to say the Ideals. Sylphrena and Pattern both were attracted to Kaladin and Shallan because they demonstrated the true Intent of their respective Orders. Though we don’t know exactly what the Intent of the Lightweavers is yet, we do know the Intent of the Windrunners.

Kaladin’s progression through the Ideals of the Windrunners is very strong evidence for this theory. At the end of TWoK, he discovers and speaks the Second Ideal when acting upon the Intent that the Second Ideal was meant to describe. The same thing happens at the end of WoR when Kaladin acts upon the Intent of the Third Ideal. It is important to note that the Intent comes first, which then triggers the “discovery” of the Ideal. I believe that it isn’t the speaking of the Ideals that is necessary to become a full Radiant, but believing them and fulfilling them through action.

 

Now back to Lopen and the squires. Why just Lopen and not all of Bridge Four? Not only is Lopen loyal to Kaladin, but he has acted on the Intent of the second Ideal by protecting Elhokar. There is a bit of an assumption here because we don’t see what is going on in Lopen’s head, but I believe he has truly committed himself in protecting the King, and that is how he gained the ability to use Stormlight. The reason the other members of Bridge Four haven’t gained this power yet is because they haven’t committed themselves to the Intent of the Windrunners, and are still acting purely out of loyalty to Kaladin.