Maffu17

Yep Argent great find that's the WoB I meant, thank you. I'm mightily confused now RShara, why call them bloodmarks if they're deep violet. Could that be important? Chasmfiends have violet blood right?

I assumed with the currency being called Bloodmarks that the colour could be inferred, I didn't notice anything about purple.. There was a WoB about this somewhere, a guy who worked with gems for a living made some interesting observations, but i'm sorry I can't find it again. It was mostly concerning Beryl. I believe Sanderson said that the differences in the gems that dictated the colours were enough to allow for the differences on Roshar. I wonder if Shallan's eyes do change colour, but only when she's wearing a disguise, which also disguises the eye colour i suppose they could change when she is projecting illusions but if so it's never been mentioned.

I'm just worried someone with progression or the voidbinder equivalent will wander along and find his corpse and recruit him to the dark side. The Shardblade would likely appear if someone was drowned, even if resuscitated afterwards. Incidentally did anyone else think Jasnah's "body" was a Lightweaver illusion as reading WoR? The blade going through her chest but the only audible noise being when it struck the deck beneath her seemed like a big clue to me, but at that time I was confused about the Radiant's crossover powers I thought Jasnah has some secondary Lightweaving abilities.

RShara: aaah thanks, if that's the case why did Peter make the comment about the numbers on the (Amaram's?) shattered plains map and state that they are important, there are no numbers on the black and white maps, not latitudinal ones at least. Brendan: Yea Brendan a few people talked about diagonal symmetry, you should read the entire thread though it's a great way to pass an hour and the Spherical images are particularly impressive as are the comparison gifs. However you mentioned something I find strange too, the stormward side of the continent should be the more badly eroded (as per all the observations about the shattered plains) acting as a windbreak for the leeward side, which should accrue more crem. My problem is as someone (RShara?) stated, the map of the Silver Kingdoms which is 4500 years old has hardly changed at all except for some missing islands, and that could be stylistic as the same islands are missing their counterpart lakes on the Shadesmar map. I could maybe begin to see the whole continent as travelling westward across the globe eternally, as the ground is eroded in the East and deposited in the West. But the lack of change in 4500 years stymies that thought. Besides which I don't recall any evidence of Storms in the visions, do we know if the storms only began when Honor was splintered?

I'm not familiar with the Odium Rains thread, but just this morning I read the phrase "Odium Reigns" and in my head concocted a little cartoon of Kaladin being rained upon by a dark cloud following him around with the title "Odium Rains" and the caption "I hate this bloody weather!". Going to seek the thread in question and see if i've been mindraped by a timetraveller. On another tangent does anyone know what software was used for the brilliant cartoon on this page http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/7275-church-of-the-stick/page-2. I'd really like to get into some form of creation and Sanderson is woefully underrepresented by the artistic world at present. Back to topic.. and then wildly veering from it, if there were 3 bondsmiths in the past, what were they bonded to? If the Nightmother is Cultivation'spren and the Stormfather is Honour'spren, was the third bonded to Odium? because that seems wrong in many ways... (Also has there been a discussion about the nicknames Stormfather and Nightmother?)

After 25 pages of this thread I glanced down at my dog's back and started giggling to myself. Congratulations you did it Peter, I am broken, please more clues or at least tell us which map is pertinent, please!

You are so well researched RShara, its impressive, a well ordered mind. I bet you have a real Sanderson folder on your computer, not like mine which is just a few badly filenamed maps and a cheatsheet with most of the character names spelled wrong, at a glance I have - Rissin, hellocar, calladin, saddeus and nirvahni! However i must question the reliability of that Death Rattle, can you be sure the Baker's apprentice wasn't talking about overcooked bread? Seems like a false positive to me

re my appalling ketek above, I feel I must try and excuse myself and explain: hoid is the lone wanderer. The holey-stick is the flute. Wanderstick is the name the boat should have had, who gives credit to the sail and neglects the 50 tons of wood it is attached to!? Kaladin was the holy wanderer alone.

Jasnah died, Jasnah came back. Szeth died, Szeth came back. Sadeas died.... Why couldn't his murderer have just thrown the corpse from the tower and let gravity and the abrasive mountain rock transform the body into a smooth paste. Then I maybe could believe he'd stay dead.

(I did not double post... lying phone...where have you hidden the edit/remove buttons... ugh i hate technology... couldn't we do all this forum thing with letters and postcards...a weekly Brandon magazine!)

Aww I heard that as "the Knight will reign" I thought it was something to do with Dalinar bonding honour's spren. One of the dangers of the audiobooks I guess. Although Teravangian had only audio so how can he be sure it was night. Hmm could we have to go back and reinterpret the death rattles for potential misunderstandings of words than sound the same but are different. Although the chances that night and knight are homonyms in any other language than English are remote, especially extrasolar planets. ------------- Have there been any other death rattles that were unfinished? I thought most of them were spoken completely around 30-90 seconds pre-death?

What we know of the Shin people could all be written on Lopen's left nub. However their punishment does not fit the peaceful zen monk image they project to visiting merchants. Szeth's book is gonna be aymayzing!

So the colours of the the Shardplate worn by the Surgebinders will probably correspond to these colours: Windrunners - Sapphire - Blue (as seen in Dalinar's vision) Skybreakers - Smokestone - Black? Dark Grey? Dustbringers - Ruby - Fiery Red Edgedancers - Diamond - White Truthwatchers - Emerald - Darkish Green Lightweavers - Garnet - Blood Red Elsecallers - Zircon - Light Blue / Turquoise Willshapers - Amethyst - Purple Stonewards - Topaz - Amber (Dalinar's vision) Bondsmiths - Heliodor - Yellow Adolin isn't going to like his colour when Kaladin trots past in the blue. Not sure how great Dalinar is going to look in yellow, although I suppose it could be a darker more golden shade without being too close to amber. Thoughts anyone?

Yea sorry about that Aleksiel, I copied the table for the attributes I didn't really notice the Ideals, maybe the purpose of the table was someone theorising about them, as I said I can't find the thread to credit the creator. Tempus made a point I was thinking also, Kaladin's attribute is Protecting, and and he broke when he failed to save the people around him. Szeth's attribute is Just, and his torture has been the murder of innocent people. Lift - Edgedancer (Loving/Healing Brave/Obedient Learned/Giving) Rock - Stoneward (Dependable/Resourceful Pious/Guiding Resolute/Builder) Tvlakv - Elsecaller (Wise/Careful Creative/Honest Resolute/Builder) (I crowbarred him in because he's had a lot of page time and i think deep down he's got a lot of potential, plus it would fun to see a travelling merchant who can teleport!) It begins to fall apart with Renarin who I thought would be a Dustbringer for sure based on the attributes, but then he's had a lot of time in the shadows not really making his own decisions (except to be Brave and Obedient (grrr!)). It also difficult to plot any potential powers to Elhokar because he's very rarely shown any positive emotions. All in all I'm not sure there are any answers to get from comparing the personalities at this point, it seems too hit and miss, maybe it will all come together in the future but given Brandon's style of writing the characters are going to become more developed and harder to pin down than they were at the end of WoK, making the attributes less useful as time goes by.

I think the Ars Arcanum can tell us a lot about what characters are destined to become which Radiants. I found this table on another thread here but have lost it now, much thanks to whoever provided it. There definitely seems to be a crossover with personalities as there are in powers. Kaladin is Protecting / Leading but also Just and Guiding (from the 2 columns either side of his). Jasnah is Wise / Careful but also Creative/ Honest and Resolute/Builder. Shallan is Creative / Honest but also Learned/Giving and Wise/Careful. However each character is so multi-faceted it's easy to attribute any attribute you want to almost any person. (sorry for the (homograph?)), but going on their most distinctive traits I think it may still be possible to ascertain the Orders they will fall into if you restrict personality to the 6 within range. Anyway going on my previous list with the new data from WoR i'd at least say Adolin - Skybreaker (just/confident protecting/leading brave/obedient) Lirin - Edgedancer (loving/healing brave/obedient learned/giving) bah have to go out now, i'll submit this unfinished for your speculation anyway

Very well said, although with Lopen's development at the end of WoR he wouldn't be made to fly at the back all the time (no one to grab his missing hand), that would have irked him in entertaining ways.

A while ago on Stormblessed I posted a list of characters and using their personalities so far and the Ars Arcanum tried to work out what the future had in store for them. This is of course Pre-WoR. Protecting, Leading - Kaladin (protecting and leading bridgemen) Just, Confident - Adolin (saving prostitute and extreme confidence in his dueling) Brave, Obedient - Renarin (enter a fight with a Greatshell unarmored to help his family, yet retreated when ordered to) Loving, Healing - Lirin (very loving and a dab hand with a bonesaw) Learned, Giving - Jasnah (who is more learned than Yassy, and giving in the instruction of the uneducated thicko shallon) Creative, Honest - Shallon (creative definitely, honest eventually ) Wise, Careful - Navani (very wise in her council to Dalinar, and if she wasn't careful an exploding spren would have messed up her pretty face years ago) Resolute, Builder - Dalinar (firm (mostly) in the face of madness and alienation by his kin, and building a strong foundation for alethcar's future) Dependable, Resourceful - Lopen (shown many times his dependability and who's more resourceful than a man with a million cousins?) Pious, Guiding - Teft (pious to the envisagers belief's (at least he is now), and guiding in Kaladin's powers, if not very useful) I was just wondering if there's a post on this anywhere here in 17thshard, I think by now many more parallels can be drawn and i'm interested in seeing how everything's been cross referenced with the new input.

It is interesting that he can't disappear once Shallan drew him. However, the measuring of the flamespren had to be exact (at least from the view of the measurer) isn't Pattern referred to as an impossible shape? Also if this was the case wouldn't he be incapable of transitioning from 2D into 3D? I think his inability to vanish lies more in what Wyndle said which Numb has already mentioned above. When she was drawing the Symbol-Heads in WoK they were probably still in Shadesmar and she was peeking through the veil, as she did with the infamous stick. I'm not sure her drawing him did anything, he's not locked into the physical world as he afterwards accompanies Shallan into Shadesmar. Still very interesting though and I will definitely keeping an eye on anyone drawing spren in the future.

Does Sebarial remind anyone else of Harry King of the Golden River? May not be great at any job, but surrounds himself with people who are. Always plays the long game. Plays the game of politics better than his foes, while seeming to not be playing at all. Knows a Tosheroon when he sees one (Shallan )

After reading the interlude where the scientists measure the flamespren, the plates in the harbour kinda feels like a spren prison to me, they're forcing that poor thing to keep coming back.

Lone Wanderers Tale... Holey Stick, WanderStick Tale! holy wanderer alone...

Aww don't be so hard on poor Elhokar. How would you be if you've spent the last few years being haunted by angle heads, considering the panic attacks Shallan had the first few times, I think he's holding up quite well. Remember like all the Alethi men he's trapped in ignorance with no way to research what he sees like Jasnah can, and everyone around him assumes he's paranoid. I hope his confirmation that they're real comes when Gaz is in the vicinity and they both react to the cognitive spren at the same time. Once Elhokar solves the mystery of the watchers I think he'll develop a lot.

Has anyone mentioned the plates built into the dock it puts its hands on. I thought Axies was the most interesting thing about that interlude until i read this thread!