Lightning

Another possiblity is that the assistant governor drained them, and pretended that they had already been empty (in collussion with the Malwish ambassador).

9 years ago I had a dream about Sazed becoming Discord.  I guess that's some good dream juice (as my daughter would say). 

Quote

 There is really no real Rock Bottom.

Well said.

There seem to be three possibilities.

1. Taravangian could only read Hoid's memories.

This would have been what I thought was the only possibility because how could messing with someone's memories not be considered harming them?

Moreover, it would be quite strange if Hoid's short-term memories were instantly stored in breath.  Taravangian suggests that he needed to store memories for the reason that he had lived so long.  So short-term memories wouldn't need such storage.  Then again, it might be an automatic function of relying on breaths.  Still, Hoid doesn't have enough breaths to have reached agelessness with them, only perfect pitch.

And yet, Hoid's short-term memory is clearly altered.  It is possible, as some have speculated, that Hoid (partially) did this to himself (through feruchemy, and the missing coin).  But wouldn't that raise Taravangian's suspicion, if Taravangian didn't also manipulate those short-term memories?

2. Taravangian could only alter or remove memories, but not read them.

But then how would he know which memories to take?  The fact that Hoid's perfect pitch is off suggests that, at the very least, some (but not all) of the breaths are gone/destroyed.  I suppose it is possible that only some of the breaths had memories, but that sounds implausible to me.

3.Taravangian could do both: read the memories and alter/destroy them.

In this case, why didn't Taravangian turn Hoid into his own instrument?  Or destroy all the memories?

It just doesn't make sense to me that Taravangian could mess with Hoid's memories without doing harm.  As other people have noted, the very idea of someone messing with our memories is one of the most terrifying thoughts imaginable.  It goes to the very heart of what makes us...well...us.  And clearly Hoid was terrified.

Bonus question: Why would Hoid expose this most vital part of himself to the most dangerous being in the universe?  We, as readers, already went through this when Sazed found he couldn't trust his own metalminds.  It was extremely scary.  Is Hoid really dumb enough to expose that most essential aspect of himself to manipulation?

...a drug addict.  Odium taking away his pain is his drug.  It numbs his feeling.  Without that drug, Moash actually might start changing for the better.

This really helped me have more compassion for Moash.  He is like Teft, but still in the grips of his addiction.  Thoughts?

Just finished.  Like someone else said, how Taravangian treats Hoid left a very bad taste in my mouth.  It was like a gut punch at the end of a beautiful play.  I was often moved to tears throughout the book, but that last scence was...just...depressing.

So a lot of the theories I've been reading liken Renarin's illumination of Moash to allomantic gold or malatium.  I have a different theory

Renarin went in search of Kaladin, wanting to help him.  Is it possible that Renarin did exactly what he was trying to do---help Kaladin.  The truth was that what Kaladin truly needed at that moment was hope.  Hope that his dear friend Moash could be a better person.  That he was not beyond redemption.

What they  saw was indeed a possible version of Moash, perhaps if he has made different choices in the past.  But could the trigger have been Kaladin himself?

I actually really liked it!  It left much more of a cliffhanger than most of Brandon's works, which was unnecessary for me since I'll buy the next edition, but I understand it for the medium.

I was surprised by my reaction to one scene.

My favorite part was:

I was wondering how there could be land mines in a world without guns...

I believe you do the following:

1. Draw any acute triangle.

2. Draw the altitudes.  (These are the line segments from an interior angle of the triangle to the opposite side, that are perpendicular to the opposite side.)

3. The three points where the altitudes hit the opposite sides are called the "foots of the altitudes".  These give three points.

4. The midpoint of each side of the triangle gives another three points.

5. The three altitudes intersect in a single point, called the orthocenter.

6. The points halfway from each vertex to the orthocenter give another three points.

7. It is an old theorem that the nine points above all lie on a unique circle, the nine-point circle.  See: nine-point circle link

Every acute triangle has such a 9-point circle.

Going from a circle to its 9 points, you need to have in mind a triangle somewhere.  There are many different choices for the 9 points.  But not every choice of 9 points will work.

Yes, give it a cost.  The cost might be that it won't work again for 3 hours.  Or they have a bit of bad luck afterward.  Or...

My theory is that Harmony is eventually going to become:

It just struck me.  As Brandon told us, Doomslug eats mushrooms.  The prevailing theory is that Doomslug is a key component to the hyperdrive.  Couldn't it be that the ship requests mushrooms due to a subconscious effort to have food available so the Doomslug will stay onboard?

Random conjecture:

I'm surprised that there hasn't been a thread pointing out the faces in the White Sands 2 graphic novel.  Of course, it took me many months before I finally broke down and bought it.

If you've found any faces, point them out here.

4 minutes ago, zebobes said:

I think Discord is the opposite of Harmony. Autonomy would be the opposite of Unity. I hope this doesn't mean that Sazed's personality will warp in the future, causing him to become Discord instead of Harmony. 

I had a dream about this very thing, about 4 years ago.  I wrote about it here--Sazed's future

That...was...awesome and disturbing.

Finally got my hands on it.

On 12/28/2017 at 3:52 PM, King Cole said:

I would love something that shows you the newest WoBs. Instead, I just look at all the events and try to remember if the numbers are different

Just wanted to add my "ditto" this this! 

7 hours ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

Only if you'll let me argue semantics back. 

Redemption is the act of redeeming, which, for my purposes and my interpretation in this post, I use the definition "to make amends for, make up for, offset."

Amends, in turn, is defined as "compensation for a loss or an injury, reparations". Reparations is then defined as "the making of amends for a wrong one has done, by paying money to or otherwise helping those who have been wronged."

While we can both agree that there are some situations that ultimately cannot be compensated for, I think that the base definition I had in mind when drafting the OP implies that, in a general sense, redemption, from a non-theological standpoint, is something that can be earned through amends of some sort.

I agree with all of this (even in the theological setting).  Great way of putting it!

Quote

To bring up something I also haven't addressed, o think it's significant that one of the largest demons from his past was never directly addressed to him, and the symbolism here is astounding to me. Elhokar has faced the truth and responsibility for his poor leadership, his horrible wife, his weakness, and his need for help. He's never addressed his past crime and taken responsibility for the death of Moash's grandparents. The one demon that he hasn't faced, that he's actually been sheltered from facing, first by Dalinar originally, then again when Dalinar talks to Kaladin in prison, and then a final time when Kaladin defends Elhokar, comes from his past to strike him down. 

I think there's some beautiful symmetry here with what you said about taking a life. It's the one thing he's yet to face head on and acknowledge within himself, and the physical embodiment of that last sin is what comes to strike him down in his moment of redemption.

I agree.  I think you bring up an interesting point as well: we expect people to face their failings in order to be redeemed.  But we don't expect them to do it all at once, and we don't expect them not to fall again in the process (ergo Dalinar's 3rd oath).  It is sadly poetic that Elhokar had to face Moash's wrath, for an act he never made reparations for.  Can we look past that, as Elhokar is starting to find his way, or must we insist on the tragic justice of it all?

My take: I think it is doubly sad because by seeking vengeance, Moash destroyed a man seeking redemption, and also betrayed his friend, and contributed to more pain in the world.  That's often how vengeance works, it just adds more misery, even if it might look justified.

6 hours ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

Honestly, I think you did a better job of summarizing what my feelings are here than I did. 

 

My original phrase, that he doesn't deserve redemption, in retrospect with the other posts here, was poorly chosen. I was looking forward to his redemption prior to this book, but he failed to learn and grow quickly enough to have earned his redemption before his time came.

 

I'd say yes and no.  Let me wax a little philosophical (and also take "redemption" to its literal limit).

Those sentiments were are actually quite accurate, in my opinion, because nobody deserves redemption.  Nobody earns redemption.

Sure, you, me, Elhokar, or anyone else could try to pay off the debts we've incurred in our lives, but we'll fail.  Especially when it involves taking the life of another; it just can't be undone.

Redemption must be bought by someone else, usually the only one who can pay for our past misdeeds (namely God).  The question isn't whether someone earns their redemption, it is what they do with the opportunity given to them to change.  We leave it to God to make things right, in the end; and only expect people to do the best they can with what they have at the moment.  (We pay what we can, and forgive the 100 pence debts.  God pays the 1000 talent debts we cannot pay.)

That said, I understand you are using redemption in a more limited way, dealing with how a person's actions make us more prone to be forgiving, more trusting.  It is hard to believe in forgiveness when someone isn't changed yet.  I think this is a struggle for us, not only in Elhokar's case, but in our daily lives.  We want the bad guys to lose, and lose big.  We aren't rooting for Moash, or our neighbor across the street who offended us, to find forgiveness.  We want justice.

Thus, this not only says a lot about where Elhokar was (and as another poster says; the tragedy of his early demise, when it looked like he was changing), but also where WE are.

"....he didn't deserve redemption..."

This is something I struggle with.  I think of Darth Vader, a mass murderer, one who betrayed those who trusted him, blew up planets, etc... and I'm supposed to just forget about all of those things because he finally did something right and stopped the Emporer?  Not going to happen.

The word "redeem" literally means to buy back.  Redemption isn't complete until all wrongs have been righted.  This is literally impossible for us humans to obtain.  But we recognize when people are on the track to righting past wrongs.  We often give the benefit of the doubt to those have started on that path.

In Elhokar's case, he is guilty of murdering innocents, and waging a genocidal war.  Can he right those wrongs?  It would take an extreme amount of change in his life.

In Dalinar's case, he is guilty of murdering innocents, and waging a genocidal war (at the behest of his king).  Can he right those wrongs?  It is still taking a lot of effort on his part, but the fact he keeps standing up and doing better tells me he is trying.

Remember that kandra use hemalurgy (to stay alive!).

Regarding the words of the Diagram that Odium couldn't see.  My wife mentioned that perhaps they were written on metal (or some other metal, specific to Oidum), which would make it harder for a shard to see.

The other two spren were the ones who became the thunderclasts.