Kurkistan

Nooooo! Not "/thread!" Pay no heed to to the man behind the curtain! I still have no idea whether or not my explanation holds water, so we might want to wait until somebody else can weigh (ha) in on this.

There's a rather extensive thread on this where the conclusion was that mass was essentially what was stored. As to not growing more dense, I think Wax might just not be thinking in the right terms about what "density" means for how much energy is required for a bullet to pierce his body. Density is mass per unit volume, but what we're concerned about with bullets puncturing Wax's skin is Bulk Density. Consider Wax's body as constantly at "poured density" no matter what the mass of his component particles are. His density will go up as the mass of his component elements go up, but they will not "settle" more closely together, leaving the lattice that is Wax just about as vulnerable as ever. If we get up to ridiculous proportions of mass, then the individual molecules might have enough inertia to significantly affect the energy of a bullet trying to pass through this lattice, but on the practical level we won't see much of a difference. Consider an example: A cubic meter of loosely packed sand and a cubic meter of loosely packed lead particles of the same gauge as that sand. The metal-cube is by far more dense, with more mass per unit of volume, but not significantly harder to puncture or dent than the sand. If every component of a Skimmer's body grows intrinsically more massive, he would be "denser" in the strictly mathematical sense, but might not necessarily see the kinds of resistance to puncturing one normally attributes to "dense" compounds, such as tightly packed sand or lead particles. Where this comparison fails is that heavier particles are more likely to "pack in" into a tighter lattice. But the effects of Iron Feruchemy appear to be such that the elements of a Skimmer's body are forced to stay in the same relative position to each other, instead of "sifting together." Otherwise, we would have some very squishy Skimmers on our hands. Most of the "science" here is off of half-read Wikipedia articles and quarter-remembered science classes, so feel free to call me out if I'm just rambling like a lunatic.

Wouldn't that make it end-negative? It's been established in the Brandonothology that drawing upon large proportions of Feruchemical attributes has diminishing returns, but it's still "balanced:" "Compounding" is obviously used differently here than in AoL, but besides that it still holds.

Actually, feruchemy, the definitive "end-neutral" magic system, has already been shown to be capable of producing infinite energy. So while "does it produce energy?" is a good rule of thumb for end-neutral systems, a magic system isn't necessarily disqualified if it can be finagled into producing energy.

"Maybe...[sniffs] maybe." It's always a good idea to double check, though. Remember that Brandon doesn't necessarily have the time or knowledge required to properly model such esoteric strategic environments, so it can't hurt to bring in some outside thought, particularly from experts and people with far too much time on their hands to think about these things. Also, it's kind of fun to talk about logistics and strategy in a world that includes the ability to turn rocks into food and air into rocks.

I like "Vitality" as the attribute that Atium stores. We know that one problem that Feruchemists run into as they get older is diminished reserves of certain Feruchemical attributes to draw upon. In fact, when I look at the Feruchemical powers, it seems that most powers outside of the spiritual/enhancement metals could be plausibly tied to age. Determination, Memory, and Weight are the only ones that are impossible to draw into correspondence with age (Memory might be plausible, but we have to consider that it’s only the clarity of the memory at the moment of storage that matters: how well the Ferring’s mind can retain the memory outside of the coppermind is immaterial). A young Fering can safely store more Strength and Health than an old one. Old ferrings presumably have to store a larger proportion of their diminished senses in order to match the outputs of younger ferrings. I see “Vitality” as an overriding attribute which drives several other attributes while waxing and waning in a bell curve throughout everyone’s life. This also ties in well with the Atium being a God metal: it is tied tied to a more fundamental attribute than the normal metals. This also explains why Miles, or any Gold Compounder, could die of old age, as discussed in this thread. It is not only the Ferring’s health which determines his well-being in this case. His overriding Vitality stat diminishes over time, reducing all of his attributes; Strength, most importantly. While his heart and lungs might not grow diseased, his body’s strength will eventually deteriorate to the point where his organs simply aren’t strong enough to maintain the flow of oxygen to his brain, rendering him brain-dead and incapable of tapping his goldminds. P.S. The difference I see between Vitality and Age here is more one of word choice than anything else. Calling this attribute "Vitality" more closely links it to the actual effects of storing/tapping it, while I see "Age" as more of a description of effects than an attribute.

I'm still mulling over the rest of your theory, but your own points about TLR keeping himself alive while tapping "age" from Atium, that "if he were compounding gold (and possibly steel, pewter, and zinc), he could probably survive" apply equally well to a 1000+ years old TLR surviving, albeit in an incredibly weakened state, for a short time after having his Atium bracers taken away.

As to the Feruchemical Age spike, the theory has been raised that Ruin was shaping Marsh as his long-term champion/avatar, either before Ruin's release during WoA when Ruin's release wasn't certain or afterwards as a precautions against being imprisoned again. Ruin would have good reason to make sure his super-champion was long-lasting.

While storing Investiture would presumably be reducing your "natural" ability to use magic for a time in order to improve your ability at a later date, Hemalurgy simply steals somebody else's ability wholesale, permanently increasing the inherent Investiture of the spiked individual. For someone without the power the spike grants, this would be an increase from 0 to 1, while someone who already possessed the spike's ability would have their inherent ability go from 1 to 2.

Being double-strength in several of the Feruchemical and Allomantic powers would still be desirable for Marsh, I think. I agree, though, that Sazed and Marsh don't seem to be working together in AoL.

If by Mistwraith you mean Kandra, other people have found out that we did see TenSoon as Beritt at the end and that MeLaan gave Wax his Pathian earing.

I'm still in the middle of it, so forgive me for not responding to earlier posts, but I would like to add a word on savants: I believe that what we see in "A Savant in the House of Measure" contradicts what we know about most savants. The novella depicts them as "addicts" who need to flare their metals at all time, like Spook in HoA, while that has previously not been the case. Tin and Pewter, we know, are particularly dangerous because of their physical effects, but the others are never shown to be harmful. I can't track it down now, but I'm fairly sure there's a quote or passage to the effect that Steel/Iron savants simply become more precise, Zinc/Brass savants get slightly greater range, etc. From the epigraph to chapter 16 of HoA: I understand that savantism as a risk for all metals creates interesting situations and constraints, especially useful for a game that requires a reason for Allomancers not to be flaring their metals at all times, but I would like to note that the approach currently being taken to the effects of becoming a savant for most metals is inaccurate so far as the rest of Mistborn canon is concerned. EDIT: And in "Opportune," we once again see the false interpretation of Copperclouds as being able to protect against emotional Allomancy for all in their area of effect, not just the Smoker. EDIT 2: -I would like to note that I do find the short stories entertaining, and they do a good job fleshing out Scadrial. I'm just harping on inconsistencies because those are what jump out. I found the Hazekiller interlude to be quite interesting. In "The Journeys of the Keeper of Dominances" it is stated that a Feruchemist storing senses into a tinmind must store all five senses at once, while it was my very firm understanding that the five senses were each stored separately, even in seperate tinminds.

And since storage doesn't require standing reserves... While the Ars Arcanum doesn't say it directly, I would think that the Connection goes both ways: affecting your own empathy along with that of others. If that is the case, you could also have: Feruchemical Duraluminum = instant ninja sociopath. Not the prettiest combo, if the Fering's lack of connection is enough to affect their actions.

I agree with your non-gut answer in that I don't think luck would affect any outcome which does not matter to the Fering at hand, no matter how Fortune works. As you said, if a Spinner walks by someone who's flipping a coin, how is it "lucky" for that Spinner for the coin to land either way? EDIT: Or CrazyRioter's answer.

I plan to treat it as second-order canon: Can be overruled by direct quote from Peter or Brandon or textual evidence from Brandon's books, but otherwise assumed to be true.

I suppose that, rather than a heightened/lessened subconscious "cognitive" awareness of causality, Fortune could also work as a greater/lesser connection to your "spiritual self's" sense of time and events. Food for thought, especially given that Chromium is a spirtual metal I don't think we have to rely upon Wax being boosted in some way in order for such a "lucky" turn of events to happen. Harmony could simply have used his own heightened sense of the future and the course of events to ensure that the trunk would be where it needed to be, without involving Wax's individual Fortune. Also, excellent idea about Bloody Tan.

To reiterate, the problem I have with making the gunman sneeze himself to death is that, besides being hard to reconcile with a world that is mostly otherwise just Physics + very specific magical violations, it simply doesn't fit in with the rest of Feruchemy's effects, which are all internal. The only arguably "external" Feruchemical power is Connection, but that's exceptionally limited and completely revolves around the Fering and their direct interactions with others. It increases or decreases the Fering's ability to connect with others, not the thoughts or behaviors of others directly. I admit that my description of "Super Causality Man" doesn't immediately bring the words "luck" or "fortune" to mind. But, particularly if the effects are subconscious, how else besides "luck" would you describe it when a Fering stores "something" and has generally less desirable things happen around them, only to have more desirable things happen around them when they tap "something."

Wax isn't a definitive source as far as secretive Terrismen go, but he does think to himself: "One Allomantic power, one Feruchemical power. That was all a man could have" (pg 32). As for "Sage" for full Feruchemists, I've always just thought of them as Keepers, since being a Feruchemist in the original trilogy was synonymous with being a Keeper. Since there apparently aren't going to be any more full Feruchemists, then I think that that association will remain basically valid. The only other Feruchemist of the old sort that we would ever talk about is TLR.

We now know that "Spinner Ferrings can store fortune in a chromium metalmind, making themselves unlucky during active storage, and can tap it at a later time to increase their luck." Now we just have to figure out a way that this doesn't violate causality and/or the nature of Feruchemy. Onto try to establish a sensible model for storing and tapping Fortune, using a coin toss as a primary example: We can all agree that a Spinner actually altering an event which as already been determined, i.e. changing which side a coin landed on after it has already landed, would be bad. Very bad. So reverse-causality is out. To extend that, though, what about altering deterministic outcomes whose causes are outside of the Spinner's direct control? If the coin is already in the air when the Spinner taps Fortune, how can that reasonably be expected to influence the coin's spin? Will the Universe alter in order to blow air currents at the coin so that it lands on the proper side? Would the opposite happen if the Spinner was tapping Fortune? Given the probabilistic nature of luck, is there a larger or smaller chance of the Universe intervening on either side depending on what your "luck levels" are at? Given the internal nature of Feruchemy in every other aspect, I posit that tapping/storing Fortune cannot reasonably be expected to alter events entirely external to the Spinner. So the coin cannot be affected in midair or on the ground, that gunman with a bead on your head will not suddenly sneeze, and a meteor isn't any more likely to strike your house if you are storing Fortune. Onto theorizing: Therefore, the only reasonable effect left to Spinners is an internalization of Fortune: Fortune's impacts are to be found entirely in the effects it has on the Spinner's own thoughts and behavior. I imagine, then, that Fortune works a bit like Atium, although perhaps on a subconscious level. If you've ever seen Alphas or the new Sherlock Holmes movie - any work that involves "awesome by analysis" behavior, then I picture it somewhat like that. Spinners, either consciously or unconsciously (I'm betting unconsciously) are more or less aware of the their surroundings, their actions, and the probable future course of events within their surroundings following as a consequence of Spinner-initiated actions, all depending upon how much Fortune they are tapping or storing. A Spinner tapping Fortune, therefore, would be more likely to flip a coin so that it lands on the proper side (you can do that with practice, normally). If someone else is flipping the coin, then perhaps a large amount of Fortune would allow the Spinner to say exactly the right thing or act in exactly the proper way so as to influence the coin toss. A Spinner might not be able to make a gunman spontaneously sneeze, but he could throw a pebble at a passing horse to cause a fruit-stand to collapse on top of the gunmen two minutes later. To sum up, I posit that tapping or storing Fortune influences a Spinner's (subconscious or conscious) understanding of the system of cause and effect in their immediate surroundings, as well as their ability to influence that system.

I imagine that Brandon (I mean Harmony, ahem) made the choice to dilute Feruchemy down to Ferrings because full Feruchemists are ridiculously powerful, especially if you guarantee that any "Twinborn" in this case will be able to compound something. Breaking Feruchemy down into Ferrings also allows for far more variety and an in-depth look at the application of the different Feruchemical powers. Just like we saw much more of the applications of Steelpushes and storing/tapping Weight with Wax than we did with those powers in Mistborn, all of the combinations of powers that we see can be explored to their fullest potential by limiting them. Much like Brandon made the decision to create Mistings in the original trilogy in order to allow for and examine "specialists," so it is now with Ferrings. As to overpowered Feruchemists: just imagine a Wayne with the full range of Feruchemical powers - Compounding Bendalloy so that he never has to eat (useful, if not combat-practical), tapping and storing speed, strength, weight, and his senses as well as health, and basically turning into an unstoppable machine of destruction. Wayne is already extremely competent in the status quo, but he is still vulnerable: we still believe that he can be in serious danger, or outmatched in a fight (as with the Koloss-blooded Thug). You take away that danger when you overpower him. Allomancy/Feruchemy have always been genetic, so that's just how the cookie crumbles. I imagine that you could keep enough Determination to stay on track while storing it, much like you reserve enough Health to not die when storing it.

As for aluminum computers, it is theoretically possible, but aluminum only has about 60% the conductivity of copper, which would result in massive energy loss and heat problems compared to copper-wired computers. I might have a small solution to save our poor iPods from destruction in a Allomantic world. It could very easily be the case that Coinshots/Lurchers simply do not have the precision to push/pull upon any of the discrete wires packed into modern circuitry. This would result in them only being able to push upon entire chips or collections of chips, making it far less likely that the ability to push/pull upon a single wire would allow them to send an entire circuit out of whack. I also don't think that we have any evidence that aluminum encasing works to shield metals from Coinshots and Lurchers, so we'll have to wait and see on that one. I doubt it would work, though: If that were the case, then the Vanishers could simply have used aluminum-plated bullets instead of spending the money to make them pure. Thanks for referencing me, although, looking earlier in the thread, I realize that ulyssessword proposed a very similar machine, albeit one that required tapping weight, and therefore might have been susceptible to the "energy loss" problem that's been discussed, but never quantified for large taps upon metalminds. The idea of studying a gold ferring/compounder's reaction to medical treatments is quite interesting, neatly sidestepping the incredibly large ethical problems raised by human testing/experiments in the real world.

We might be able to steal enough of the spirit web of a human to give the cat a larger spirit web with more bind points, if it comes down to it. Also, I don't see small spikes being that much of a problem if you have a very small interval between between charge and placement. If you want to get more exact about it, you could probably even use some kind of mechanical press with a set depth in order to kill/spike quickly and perfectly the first time. Or a nail gun, if you're feeling like a homicidal Happy Gilmore that day.

To tack onto this, the rarity of pure Aluminum back in the day was a problem of a lack of an efficient purification process, not a lack of raw ore.

The Brandonothology says that Inquisitor's could theoretically burn their spikes, so I imagine that you can burn any metal that's within your body.

Update on the size of the spikes: Thanks to Fyodor, I can direct you to a passage in Hero of Ages where Marsh states that the size of the spike does not matter for holding a charge, but only matters for how long you want that charge to last outside of the body. Therefore, our Catquisitors needn't look like porcupines.