Leshwi is trans?

[City of Sauronicon]

I mean, she is, technically, isn't she? Since she's femalen in a malen body.

It's really amazing to have trans representation. I'm glad that right now it's blink and you miss it and not really dwelled on because she's so full of other characteristics (no one likes a character existing to just check the boxes).

However I do hope that BS goes a bit deeper with it because it deserves to be explored now that we know her better. Plus there are a lot of things it allows us to consider.0

RoW climax spoilers:

Spoiler

Up until now, having a body that didn't match her Spiritual Ideal was a temporary thing. Now, Leshwi seems convinced that if given the chance, Odium will torture her on Braze as punishment for her betrayal. It seems that she's going to be in a malen body in a much more permanent way than she has ever experienced, and it would be really interesting to explore her gender dysphoria. 

It would also be beautiful to see her transition. We already know she desperately wants friendship with a spren...With stormlight, that could happen. And I think it would be really lovely to see her subtly change to reflect her gender identity. <3

Oh also, it makes the Kaladin/Leshwi ship even more intriguing to consider

Edited September 20, 2021 by City of Sauronicon
Added spoiler warning

[Benkinsky]

wait, I think I missed that. I know of the Trans Radiant that healed their body to match their spiritual identity, which I think is a super beautiful representation, but I missed the Lewshi part. Not disputing it, but if you have passages and stuff to show me where i was blind, I'd be happy to look at those again!

Is she in a malen body as in when she was reborn this time she took over a malen body, and hasn't gotten to "heal" it yet? or do we know Odium would put her into a malen body to torture her because he knows she dislikes that.

[Marukka]

23 minutes ago, Benkinsky said:

wait, I think I missed that. I know of the Trans Radiant that healed their body to match their spiritual identity, which I think is a super beautiful representation, but I missed the Lewshi part. Not disputing it, but if you have passages and stuff to show me where i was blind, I'd be happy to look at those again!

Is she in a malen body as in when she was reborn this time she took over a malen body, and hasn't gotten to "heal" it yet? or do we know Odium would put her into a malen body to torture her because he knows she dislikes that.

Rhythm of War,  Chapter 11. In my book it is on page 152 but that may vary depending on the edition. I had the same thoughts as @City of Sauronicon, and am really interested to see how this is implemented further. 

[Benkinsky]

"Lewshi didn't care about mortal feelings of propriety. She didn't so much as human a note of Embarrassment, though in this incarnation, the body that had been offered to her was malen. Indeed, after drinking and being wrapped in her robes of luxury, she sat down to be seen by the barber, who shaved her face after the manner of humans. She hated whiskers, even if the ones she grew when inhabiting a malen body were soft and faint."

interesting. I didn't remember that detail. Sounds like this isn't the first time Lewshi has a malen host. Wonder if that's a thing all Fused have to deal with, if the Fused with the Surge of Progression get to do the healing that Stormlight gives you but Progression doesn't for Radiants.

2 hours ago, City of Sauronicon said:

I mean, she is, technically, isn't she? Since she's femalen in a malen body.

so yeah, I think you're right, I'd say that technically makes her trans. We see her take care of her body to represent something. Plus, the narrator refers to her as "she" despite her body being malen, which is cool, cause Leshwi the person is a woman.

I wonder if the "good" Fused, Lewshi and co, adress the "we're stealing bodies" thing. Maybe they can give up bodies and just become Spren like or something. Or cultivation could grant them bodies that aren't stolen. Leshwi x Riah Spren Ship?

[City of Sauronicon]

4 minutes ago, Benkinsky said:

I wonder if the "good" Fused, Lewshi and co, adress the "we're stealing bodies" thing. Maybe they can give up bodies and just become Spren like or something. Or cultivation could grant them bodies that aren't stolen. Leshwi x Riah Spren Ship?

It would be nice if it was addressed. However, I don't think she would give up the body she has and revert to a spren. I think it might leave her more vulnerable to Odium. Second, the body is already an empty vessel. Its not easy to put toothpaste back in the tube ya know? But I could definitely see the consideration of body snatching being less than moral a reason she would dedicate herself to a malen body despite dysphoria. 

[Benkinsky]

Yeah, she seems pretty sure that once she leaves this body it's back to Braize, so she wouldn't get to hang around. And yeah, it would be the moral thing to do to keep the body and work with it, rather than try to get a femalen body next time. However, then there's disphoria to deal with. I just hope we don't lose Leshwi soon, she's cool

[+Child of Hodor]

2 hours ago, City of Sauronicon said:

I mean, she is, technically, isn't she? Since she's femalen in a malen body.

Yes in a way. 

7 minutes ago, Benkinsky said:

"Lewshi didn't care about mortal feelings of propriety. She didn't so much as human a note of Embarrassment, though in this incarnation, the body that had been offered to her was malen. Indeed, after drinking and being wrapped in her robes of luxury, she sat down to be seen by the barber, who shaved her face after the manner of humans. She hated whiskers, even if the ones she grew when inhabiting a malen body were soft and faint."

interesting. I didn't remember that detail. Sounds like this isn't the first time Lewshi has a malen host. Wonder if that's a thing all Fused have to deal with, if the Fused with the Surge of Progression get to do the healing that Stormlight gives you but Progression doesn't for Radiants.

That's good question about progression. To the body she stole the fact that the fact that the body is malen is not a wound or injury that needs to be healed. But, in other cases the mind or spiritweb are more important to progression. Kaladin's scars not healing until he was emotionally ready to let them go being the biggest example. 

Probably the answer is that it's a body she stole and to the body she stole malen is the default state. The fact it isn't her body creates a disconnect that won't allow for her to change it.

[City of Sauronicon]

8 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

The fact it isn't her body creates a disconnect that won't allow for her to change it.

Do you think that could change? I'd really love to see an arch where through a radiant spren friendship and hard work internally, she could get there, and use stormlight to transition. Her reaction to Venli's bond to Timber was so moving. I think she'd have some big steps to take but it would be worth it. Gender dysphoria and body snatching could be a really interesting conduit for that. I could see a lot of her arch being about how who she is has been lost, and how even externally it doesn't reflect who Leshwi is on the inside. 

[Benkinsky]

13 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

That's good question about progression. To the body she stole the fact that the fact that the body is malen is not a wound or injury that needs to be healed. But, in other cases the mind or spiritweb are more important to progression. Kaladin's scars not healing until he was emotionally ready to let them go being the biggest example. 

Probably the answer is that it's a body she stole and to the body she stole malen is the default state. The fact it isn't her body creates a disconnect that won't allow for her to change it.

yeah, I'm wondering that now too. We've basicaly only seen how healing affects humans. There's so many factors at play with the Fused. As you said, the body and the mind have two different perceptions of the body. If Objects have a corresponding sphere in Shadesmar, then surely a mindless body still has some perceptionof itself.

Then again/in addition, physical identity / affirmation of identity is already much more complex with regular Listeners, let alone Fused. Gender is more complicated, with Male/Female gender only really coming into effect when in Mateform specifically, and changing your body is a common part of Listener life. Whether that makes disphoria worse or easier to deal with is not for me to know.

(on a goofier note, I wonder if Genderspren are a thing :D)

[City of Sauronicon]

8 minutes ago, Benkinsky said:

Then again/in addition, physical identity / affirmation of identity is already much more complex with regular Listeners, let alone Fused. Gender is more complicated, with Male/Female gender only really coming into effect when in Mateform specifically, and changing your body is a common part of Listener life. Whether that makes disphoria worse or easier to deal with is not for me to know

That's a really good eye. Then again, even when people aren't currently engaging in sexy times, they're still what gender they are. I think it's more about Identity than it is about reducing gender to a physical act, and might actually make a powerful point for it to matter even in non-mateform. 

[+Child of Hodor]

4 minutes ago, City of Sauronicon said:

Do you think that could change? I'd really love to see an arch where through a radiant spren friendship and hard work internally, she could get there, and use stormlight to transition. Her reaction to Venli's bond to Timber was so moving. I think she'd have some big steps to take but it would be worth it. Gender dysphoria and body snatching could be a really interesting conduit for that. I could see a lot of her arch being about how who she is has been lost, and how even externally it doesn't reflect who Leshwi is on the inside. 

Could be. I would like to see her stick around and become a radiant and then who knows. 

6 minutes ago, Benkinsky said:

yeah, I'm wondering that now too. We've basicaly only seen how healing affects humans. There's so many factors at play with the Fused. As you said, the body and the mind have two different perceptions of the body. If Objects have a corresponding sphere in Shadesmar, then surely a mindless body still has some perceptionof itself.

Then again/in addition, physical identity / affirmation of identity is already much more complex with regular Listeners, let alone Fused. Gender is more complicated, with Male/Female gender only really coming into effect when in Mateform specifically, and changing your body is a common part of Listener life. Whether that makes disphoria worse or easier to deal with is not for me to know.

(on a goofier note, I wonder if Genderspren are a thing :D)

The other thing that makes it easier on the Fused is that Leshwi and the others have stolen many, many bodies that were not their own over the years and body-less beggars cannot be choosers in the midst of a devastating war to reclaim their homeland. She's probably inhabited bodies of all 4 Singer genders at some point. She stated in RoW that Fused could always come back more than once in prior desolations, the Heralds have to engage the lock by going to Braize in order for the Fused to get permanently (in theory) trapped. 

On Genderspren: maybe that's what Cusicesh is. They show up once a day and are like "here are all the genders" and rapidly shifts through a ton of people.   https://coppermind.net/wiki/Cusicesh

[Quantus]

For some reason I couldnt define, I think the fused Cannot Heal to the point of changing their gender, at least not as a standard thing.  The reason I say this is that they already Do alter their host bodies to match themselves: their skin patterning changes.  

I suspect that as a group they default to viewing their host bodies as that, a Host Body vehicle that is separate from themselves, and that's why their bodies dont adjust more dramatically the way a Radiant will.  From an Occam's Razor standpoint that seems the simpler answer than some realmic difference between between the function of Stormlight vs Voidlight. 

[City of Sauronicon]

1 hour ago, Benkinsky said:

Gender is more complicated, with Male/Female gender only really coming into effect when in Mateform specifically, and changing your body is a common part of Listener life. Whether that makes disphoria worse or easier to deal with is not for me to know.

 

52 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

The other thing that makes it easier on the Fused is that Leshwi and the others have stolen many, many bodies that were not their own over the years and body-less beggars cannot be choosers in the midst of a devastating war to reclaim their homeland. 

Yeah guys, I see what you're saying about how frequently Singers change their bodies and what that might mean for them being in the "wrong" body.  I think it's definitely worth exploring that....but Im on the fence here. Like you, I just have no idea if it would make it easier or harder since I'm not a singer (let alone trans).

I think for the very meta sake of the audience, especially because we of course want to see trans visibility represented well, you have to consider it equally important to a singer as it is to a human. Like, even out of mateform, Rlain is still male and into men and that's important because of the representation. I think it being easier for Singers would do a disservice to trans fans, and I think if Brandon was going to include a trans character he wouldn't do that, because a very real difficulty for certain people would be reduced for the sake of world building. That doesn't sit right with me, and it feels a little like the antithesis of what he's trying to do with some of his bigger themes in the cosmere. (Some times he doesn't get it right, but we know he tries, like how much he improved with Renarin vs Adien) 

Is still a neat concept to consider however! I would love to meet a gender fluid Singer that embraces that changeability so we can keep exploring that part of the world.... tactfully. 

[City of Sauronicon]

31 minutes ago, Quantus said:

For some reason I couldnt define, I think the fused Cannot Heal to the point of changing their gender [..] From an Occam's Razor standpoint that seems the simpler answer than some realmic difference between between the function of Stormlight vs Voidlight. 

Yeah I agree. Its not "healing" so much as it's a disconnect from the spiritual. Maybe because it's stormlight and therefore Honor's light and his most pure surge is Connection...? Like IS it progression? Which seems like it would be of Cultivation...idk. But you're right, Voidlight ain't got it 

Edit: Dang it, I tried to edit my last post and double posted. I'm still learning. sorry! I'm not seeing a delete button so I'll just tack this on to the post above and maybe someone can tell me how to delete this one? 

Edit 2: yeah I can't figure that out either. I will just try not to double post again and hope I'm forgiven this time

Edited September 20, 2021 by City of Sauronicon

[Benkinsky]

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

On Genderspren: maybe that's what Cusicesh is. They show up once a day and are like "here are all the genders" and rapidly shifts through a ton of people.   https://coppermind.net/wiki/Cusicesh

hahaha, I love it. "Take your pick"

Some NB Alethi teen doing a world trip, and they see Cusicesh and see one of the faces and think "oh rust that's what I feel like"

[Quantus]

2 minutes ago, City of Sauronicon said:

Yeah I agree. Its not "healing" so much as it's a disconnect from the spiritual. Maybe because it's stormlight and therefore Honor's light and his most pure surge is Connection...? Like IS it progression? Which seems like it would be of Cultivation...idk. But you're right, Voidlight ain't got it 

Im kind of thinking the opposite actually, that the difference is simply a common psychological stance among the Fused that prevents it, a matter of view of the host body as separate from themselves, rather than it being a functional issue with Voidlight itself.  

But Im hoping as we get more of Venli and Renarin, we'll see more instances of Stormlight vs Voidlight being used.

[City of Sauronicon]

37 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Im kind of thinking the opposite actually, that the difference is simply a common psychological stance among the Fused that prevents it, a matter of view of the host body as separate from themselves, rather than it being a functional issue with Voidlight itself. 

Oh, I see what you're saying. Because yeah, their bodies are altered. So I guess their skin pattern would be more Identifying than their gender is what you're saying. Like painting a car with flames haha. 

Well I guess it's possible. That does make sense. I still don't find it very palatable to say it's psychological. Maybe it's more like the spren itself causes that to change, like warform gets bigger, nibleform more dexterous, and the fused spren has those particular individual markings? Leshwi shaves her beard--that's pretty clear to me that if she had control over something like that, she would not need a barber. 

Idk guys, whether or not a fused can culturally identity as a different gender is getting kinda heavy and I can see where you're all coming from, but I think it touches on some real world questions people have. Maybe that's why it needs to be represented and I'm so enthusiastic about Leshwi being trans. I guess I did open the thread with it as a question. I think I've decided it's not. I just don't think BS would fill his world with people struggling in various ways and this is an exception for some fantastical reason.

I guess my question was more, "so Leshwi is trans. Ok, what does that mean for her character going forward?" Not IF she even can be trans. :/

 

Edited September 20, 2021 by City of Sauronicon

[Quantus]

Just now, City of Sauronicon said:

I just don't think BS would fill his world with people struggling in various ways.

Generally speaking I think he is doing and will continue to do exactly this (even if he says he's taking his time to educate himself before wading into some waters).  It's what makes his characters interesting and relatable.  

 

 

[City of Sauronicon]

36 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Generally speaking I think he is doing and will continue to do exactly this (even if he says he's taking his time to educate himself before wading into some waters).  It's what makes his characters interesting and relatable.  

 

 

That sentence was longer than what you quoted and leaving out the second part changes the meaning entirely. (But maybe that was my fault. I'm still figuring out the buttons on here. Although I don't think I corrected that part). I said I don't think he would showcase a variety of people struggling but for some reason Leshwi won't be one of those people and is somehow an exception. He's delt with depression, multiple identities, domestic verbal abuse, alcoholism, autism...why not a trans character struggling with gender dysphoria? I think Leshwi WILL be one of those struggling people. 

Anyway, I'm glad we agree  I also think that's what make them so interesting. And I really appreciate the gravitas he gives it.

Do you guys think I should just start a new thread about what being trans means for Leshwi's character, and you guys can talk on here about being fused vs human? Their culture is pretty neat and I think it's an interesting subject. But it also feels weird and it's not what I intended.

Does anyone want to talk about what it would be like to be a fused, in a body that's a different gender, and then for it to suddenly seem a lot more permanent? If she dies, she can't just pop right back in a new body with a random gender because Odium will be all over her. This is now the one she's stuck with. 

That to me seems very difficult. She's always had a bit of a different mindset than the other Fused. Then she betrays her people! Now she's with the Listeners. I think she must be feeling like a duck out of water in so many ways. I don't think being trans necessarily will be the focus, but I think it could act as a symbol. Like how Teft's drug use was symbolic for his self hatred. The person Leshwi is inside is not reflected. Yet. She's so much better a person than the one she's been stuck being. 

Lmk if I should move that over to a new thread. I don't want to detail the topic of my own poorly worded post!

Edited September 20, 2021 by City of Sauronicon
Oh I'm a mess

[Alcatur]

Arguably in most cases even a sane Fused would probably be ambivalent towards their physical gender. It plays little role in lives. their bodies are more of a tool to wage their eternal war - even for Leshwi - than anything else. As long as the tool is useful - what is the difference? Becoming spren-like should mean loosing most connection to things as mundane as gender identity. For Leshwi there s probably no difference in how her body looks like thus any voidlight - related changes wouldn't kick in.

 

OTOH with the gender change - I wonder how healing works with body image issues. If you have some, lets say of the "this body part isn't mine" variety, shouldn't it mean that the offensive body part would fall off?

[Benkinsky]

1 minute ago, Alcatur said:

OTOH with the gender change - I wonder how healing works with body image issues. If you have some, lets say of the "this body part isn't mine" variety, shouldn't it mean that the offensive body part would fall off?

There's a Trans Radiant who "healed" to match their body to what their spiritual identity has always been. Lopen regrew his arm because he never considered the wound as part of himself. Stands to reason that you'd lose body parts that you don't see as part of yourself

[nehalem]

I think there are several things to be considered

(1) From the wiki:

Singers possess four distinct sexes; male and female, which are capable of reproduction, and their neutered variants, malen and femalen.^[10] Singers' sex will change from between male and malen, or female and femalen, as they change forms; the vast majority of forms are either malen or femalen. As such, most singers are asexual the vast majority of the time

It wouldn't be surprising to me if the forms which are asexual have less distinct differences between malen and femalen.  Which would make transitioning less of a problem.  It also likely has an impact on how gender is perceived by Singers in general.  Realistically would/should the human importance of gender still exist in a species like the Singers?

(2) The Fused are 5000 year old spirits not people.  Their attachment to mundane people concerns such as gender are likely to be different.

(3) The Fused have more important concerns than worrying about gender.  Like a global millennial war and possible eternal torture from Odium.

(4)  Singers are used to changing forms.  Is the difference between say a Stormform and a Workform less than between a human man and woman?  Should there be Singers who are transform instead of transgender? 

 

 

 

[Alcatur]

1 hour ago, nehalem said:

(4)  Singers are used to changing forms.  Is the difference between say a Stormform and a Workform less than between a human man and woman?  Should there be Singers who are transform instead of transgender? 

Form can be changed easily, so transform probably happens rarely. We see that some - many - are more happy in some forms than others, and do not find themselves comfortable in certain forms, but it is closer to unpleasant job attire than body issues. Singers should be far less attached to body form than we are as it is so often changing for them.  

 

And with how far form affects thinking, I believe that psychological differences between forms on average are larger than between men and women. 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Alcatur