The Duel and its outcome

[Brgst13]

So we know a few things about the duel:

1. There is a way for Todium to not be bound.

2. Dalinar is a Bondsmith unchained.

Quote

 

Spoiler

3. We have seen a future scene from the Sixth sequel showing what appears to be a Singer Radiant using Warlight.

 

Here is my theory:

Dalinar will engage in the duel in good faith. At some point, Taravangian will try to create a scenario where Dalinar cannot continue without violating his honor through some stratagem.  He will not, however, know that Dalinar has been trained by Ishar.  In training him how to reset the Oathpact, Ishar inadvertently shows him how to increase his Connection to a Shard to the point of Ascension.  Dalinar is in a unique situation where he is highly Connected to both Honor and Odium.  Dalinar attempts to use Ishar's technique and ascends to BOTH Honor and Odium.  This will form a new Shard, War.

Edited September 13, 2021 by Brgst13
Inserted Spoiler tag

[Spinner16]

I like this line of thinking, a sort of compromise where Dalinar technically wins but ends up holding the incredibly volatile shard of Odium. However, in my mind I see the duel being an objective loss for Dalinar and the radiants. The Blackthorn persisting as a Fused to rain terror upon the Cosmere is too tempting of an idea to pass up. Either way, Dalinar is not leaving this duel as a mortal.

[Inquisitor #5]

6 hours ago, Brgst13 said:

In training him how to reset the Oathpact, Ishar inadvertently shows him how to increase his Connection to a Shard to the point of Ascension.

What Ishar says during his window of clarity makes it sound like he can fix the Oathpact, not that he can teach another Bondsmith how.

I'm really apprehensive at the idea of Dalinar becoming a Vessel, let alone the idea of anyone Ascending to Honor at present.

6 hours ago, Brgst13 said:

Dalinar is in a unique situation where he is highly Connected to both Honor and Odium.  Dalinar attempts to use Ishar's technique and ascends to BOTH Honor and Odium.

I don't think anyone could Ascend to Odium without the Vessel dying or giving up the power, the first would be an extreme anticlimax given the events of RoW, the second feels incredibly out of character.

I don't feel like Shards can remain credible threats if they can just be stolen from their Vessels by mortals.

I also feel that there's nothing to adequately explain how there is a Shard of Honor to Ascend to, as it's been Splintered.

Finally, given other events known to have happened in the cosmere, I find the idea of a Dishardic Ascension to be too unoriginal. I find the idea unsatisfying on those grounds.

 

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[Legui01010]

8 hours ago, Brgst13 said:

We have seen a future scene from the Sixth sequel showing what appears to be a Singer Radiant using Warlight.

Warlight doesn't have to be created by a new shard, after all we know that Navani and the Sibling can create Towerlight (I don't recall this particular part, can you tell me where you found it?)

2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I don't think anyone could Ascend to Odium without the Vessel dying or giving up the power, the first would be an extreme anticlimax given the events of RoW, the second feels incredibly out of character.

I don't feel like Shards can remain credible threats if they can just be stolen from their Vessels by mortals.

I also feel that there's nothing to adequately explain how there is a Shard of Honor to Ascend to, as it's been Splintered.

Finally, given other events known to have happened in the cosmere, I find the idea of a Dishardic Ascension to be too unoriginal. I find the idea unsatisfying on those grounds.

I'll have to go along with this. There's a lot we don't know about Bondsmithing, but being able to steal a Shard from a vessel? It's just too much power, and if Honor was able to create them, then it almost sounds dumb how he was defeated by Odium. And I don't even think T-Odium would be as carefree as Rayse (since he ignored the threat opposed by Nightblood). And the Dishardic Ascension was a necessity and a burden Sazed had to take, for Scadrial was about to be destroyed. Dalinar does not need to claim any of the Shards.

[Rosharan Chicken]

Fused 

10 hours ago, Spinner16 said:

I like this line of thinking, a sort of compromise where Dalinar technically wins but ends up holding the incredibly volatile shard of Odium. However, in my mind I see the duel being an objective loss for Dalinar and the radiants. The Blackthorn persisting as a Fused to rain terror upon the Cosmere is too tempting of an idea to pass up. Either way, Dalinar is not leaving this duel as a mortal.

Dalinar as a Fused would be terrifying 

[mathiau]

(Sequel of the dusk)

9 hours ago, Brgst13 said:

Spoiler

3. We have seen a future scene from the Sixth sequel showing what appears to be a Singer Radiant using Warlight.

 

Unmarked Sequel of the dusk spoilers are forbidden (same for the other unrealised novels).

@Legui01010 this also apply to when you're quoting and answering a Sequel of the dusk spoilers

Quote

Ishar inadvertently shows him how to increase his Connection to a Shard to the point of Ascension.

Note that Dalinar already managed to Ascend in Oathbringer

3 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I also feel that there's nothing to adequately explain how there is a Shard of Honor to Ascend to, as it's been Splintered.

Splitered Shards can be reforged.

Quote

Finally, given other events known to have happened in the cosmere, I find the idea of a Dishardic Ascension to be too unoriginal. I find the idea unsatisfying on those grounds.

How about a half-Shardic Ascension? In the great war Legui and I have been fidgeting with the idea Unity might be one of the broken parts of Honour

[Andy92]

It could happen but from a story standpoint:

1. I don’t want to lose Taravangian after one book.

2. Spoilers for another Cosmere story:

Spoiler

It’s a bit too similar to the duel Ascension in Mistborn for my liking. 

 

[Inquisitor #5]

7 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Note that Dalinar already managed to Ascend in Oathbringer

Clearly capital-A Ascend can mean multiple things, as Dalinar has demonstrably not evaporated.

Whatever happened he clearly did not become the Vessel of a Shard.

22 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Splitered Shards can be reforged.

That may be so, but I think we'd need to know by what method(s) before we can base anything solid on it.

23 minutes ago, mathiau said:

How about a half-Shardic Ascension?

That sounds plausible, by WoB you can become the Vessel of an Avatar, IIRC, though it's hard.

24 minutes ago, mathiau said:

In the great war Legui and I have been fidgeting with the idea Unity might be one of the broken parts of Honour

That makes sense, I feel like the Radiants could possibly be seen as each embodying a kind or facet of Honor, possibly something to do with Honor's Purposes.

Protection, Justice, Restraint, Care, Truth, (Self-)Acceptance (maybe?), Thoughtfulness, Liberty, Reliability and Unity.

(Terminology somewhat on the spot, there are probably better words.)

It makes sense that any sufficiently large Splinter of Honor might take on such a Sub-intent.

 

 

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[Legui01010]

37 minutes ago, mathiau said:

@Legui01010 this also apply to when you're quoting and answering a Sequel of the dusk spoilers

Didn't know it was a spoiler, sorry regardless.

 

37 minutes ago, mathiau said:

How about a half-Shardic Ascension? In the great war Legui and I have been fidgeting with the idea Unity might be one of the broken parts of Honour

Also that, Dalinar has often heard a voice in his mind, prodding him to Unite. The voice inside his head is similar to when T-Odium Ascended, the Shard Odium spoke to him, telling him to take the power. 

21 minutes ago, Andy92 said:

1. I don’t want to lose Taravangian after one book.

Why would he die or lose? T-Odium will most likely go for a tie from my perspective, freeing himself from Roshar. The only ones who could ever bring harm to him would be:

1. Someone wielding Nightblood against him (highly unlikely, since he knows how dangerous Nightblood is, he'll probably take measures to keep it hidden)

2. Cultivation (again, this seems unlikely, since Cultivation needs Taravangian for her plans) or any other Shard (maybe Valor? But I have no information on her)

3. Hoid (he actually planned for Taravangian to go for a tie, hence it could mean that he wants Taravangian to be free, at least that's what I'm inclined to believe)

4 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

That makes sense, I feel like the Radiants could possibly be seen as each embodying a kind or facet of Honor, possibly something to do with Honor's Purposes.

Protection, Justice, Restraint, Care, Truth, (Self-)Acceptance (maybe?), Thoughtfulness, Liberty, Reliability and Unity.

(Terminology somewhat on the spot, there are probably better words.)

It makes sense that any sufficiently large Splinter of Honor might take on such a Sub-intent.

Honor's Splinters would also explain the oddities around Ishar (his ability to summon Honor's Perpendicularity) and Kaladin (him being immune to the Thrill, resisting the Sibling Inverted protections and the SA calling him "Child of Tanavast")

Edited September 13, 2021 by Legui01010

[Inquisitor #5]

8 minutes ago, Legui01010 said:

Why would he die or lose?

Because if Dalinar's going to Ascend to Honor and Odium, there can't be a Vessel for Odium.

20 minutes ago, Legui01010 said:

T-Odium will most likely go for a tie from my perspective, freeing himself from Roshar.

Why would that free him?

At best it voids the deal, but that won't let him just decide to be free now.

If you enter into a contract saying that if I win a coin flip I owe you a year's income, but if you win the same coinflip I owe you a year's income and a new car, the coin landing upright doesn't let me demand ten years' income from you, it just means that nothing happens, unless we make a new agreement an flip a coin again.

9 minutes ago, Legui01010 said:

Honor's Splinters would also explain the oddities around Ishar (his ability to summon Honor's Perpendicularity)

I think that is simply a combination of Herald power and experience, Honor's protections weakening/failing and possibly his temporary Connection to the Stormfather moments prior.

12 minutes ago, Legui01010 said:

and Kaladin (him being immune to the Thrill, resisting the Sibling Inverted protections and the SA calling him "Child of Tanavast")

The suppressor didn't work as well against the Windrunners as a group though and Navani's apparently fine at Bondsmith level one even before they flush the Voidlight.

Add to that that the Sibling themself says that "Honor's Truest Surge" (Adhesion) might still work, and that seems more of a "the defenses aren't made to deal with Adhesion"-thing not a "Kaladin is weird"-thing.

As for the Thrill, he doesn't glorify war and combat the same as many other Alethi, so he might just be naturally unreceptive and his bond probably pushes that even further.

As for Kaladin being "of Tanavast" when others only get called "of Honor," who the heck knows?

 

¤_¤

[Legui01010]

6 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Add to that that the Sibling themself says that "Honor's Truest Surge" (Adhesion) might still work, and that seems more of a "the defenses aren't made to deal with Adhesion"-thing not a "Kaladin is weird"-thing.

None of the other Windrunners resisted the protections of the Sibling (Teft was the only one due to Lift providing him Lifelight).

7 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

As for the Thrill, he doesn't glorify war and combat the same as many other Alethi, so he might just be naturally unreceptive and his bond probably pushes that even further.

Sanderson confirmed that Kaladin is immune to the Thrill.

[Inquisitor #5]

2 hours ago, Legui01010 said:

None of the other Windrunners resisted the protections of the Sibling

Yes they did, Venli's crew note that all the Radiants who are sleeping uneasily are Windrunners, no other orders show any signs of being anything other than out cold.

2 hours ago, Legui01010 said:

Sanderson confirmed that Kaladin is immune to the Thrill.

Before or after he bonded Syl?

 

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[mathiau]

4 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Before or after he bonded Syl?

Definitely before he said the oaths (which is different). Note that Dalinar still felt the Thrill at oath 2

[Brgst13]

6 hours ago, mathiau said:

(Sequel of the dusk)

Unmarked Sequel of the dusk spoilers are forbidden (same for the other unrealised novels).

@Legui01010 this also apply to when you're quoting and answering a Sequel of the dusk spoilers

Note that Dalinar already managed to Ascend in Oathbringer

Splitered Shards can be reforged.

How about a half-Shardic Ascension? In the great war Legui and I have been fidgeting with the idea Unity might be one of the broken parts of Honour

Added Spoiler tag in original post.  Didn't realize I was breaking the rules.