Language and communication

[AquaRegia he/him]

I’m new, so my apologies if this has been discussed (I searched, but came up empty).  I find I’m vaguely yet persistently troubled by how easy it has become for characters who don’t seem to share a common language to speak freely.  I’ll cheerfully admit it’s my lack of understanding/reading skill, rather than any shortcoming on Brandon’s part.  Can you help?

In addition to current Rosharan languages (Alethi, Veden, Azish, Shin, Thaylen, Herdazian, Listener, etc., a complete list would be neat – is there one?), there are all the known old dead languages (e.g., Ancient Alethi, Dawnchant), plus who knows how many unknown ones that may suddenly come up (e.g., Fused).  I love the idea that some forms of Investiture or Connection allow innate knowledge of any language, as we see with Dalinar and Venli, but that doesn’t seem to be enough to explain ALL the ways language barriers are being overcome.

In the case of educated people like Jasnah and Sigzil, it’s reasonable to expect them to be able to speak multiple languages.  But many of our main characters are poorly educated at best.

Specific examples: Lift grew up in Rall Elorim and Azir.  She speaks to Dalinar in a vision (in Azish, I assume, same as with Yanagawn), but I don’t see any credible reason to think she would have learned Alethi.  Dabbid, Teft, and Kaladin have never shown any ability to speak Azish.  So what language are they using to talk?

The Fused can hardly be expected to understand “modern” human languages, which probably didn’t exist 4500 years ago, and indeed, at first, they all seem to require translators like Venli.  At the beginning of RoW, the only communication between Windrunners and Heavenly Ones is accomplished by gestures… yet by the end of RoW, Leshwi and Kaladin seem to be conversing easily.  In what tongue?

Please help me get past this stupid detail which is diminishing my enjoyment!

[Spaceater he/him]

good question, I was so caught up in the story that I hadn't thought about it.

1 hour ago, AquaRegia said:

Specific examples: Lift grew up in Rall Elorim and Azir.  She speaks to Dalinar in a vision (in Azish, I assume, same as with Yanagawn), but I don’t see any credible reason to think she would have learned Alethi.  Dabbid, Teft, and Kaladin have never shown any ability to speak Azish.  So what language are they using to talk?

if i remember correctly it was stated that during his visions Dalinar could speak with everybody thanks to the power of Connection. 

1 hour ago, AquaRegia said:

The Fused can hardly be expected to understand “modern” human languages, which probably didn’t exist 4500 years ago, and indeed, at first, they all seem to require translators like Venli.  At the beginning of RoW, the only communication between Windrunners and Heavenly Ones is accomplished by gestures… yet by the end of RoW, Leshwi and Kaladin seem to be conversing easily.  In what tongue?

this is harder to explain, maybe is due to the reactivation of Urithiru and the Sibling having a bondsmith again? If it can provide heat and air pressure surely it make sense that also provide a "real time translation" field (thanks to Connection) since it was build as a meeting place for all Roshar

[AquaRegia he/him]

On 1/6/2021 at 5:00 PM, Spaceater said:

if i remember correctly it was stated that during his visions Dalinar could speak with everybody thanks to the power of Connection.

I LOVE the mechanic of "in the Stormfather's visions, Dalinar can speak whatever language the other characters are using".  And sure, now, his Bondsmithiness gives him instant touchy-talkie ability.  I don't see how that can explain Lift being able to talk to Dabbid, though.

On 1/6/2021 at 5:00 PM, Spaceater said:

maybe is due to the reactivation of Urithiru and the Sibling having a bondsmith again? If it can provide heat and air pressure surely it make sense that also provide a "real time translation" field (thanks to Connection) since it was build as a meeting place for all Roshar

That's an interesting idea, and it would be neat if this turn out to be the case somehow - now that the tower is fully operational, the built-in Universal Translator function is working!  But the conversation between Kaladin and Leshwi happens outside the tower, at the Oathgate platform.

[Kyn]

I imagine the year time-skip gave a few people time to pick up on language. Leshwi seemed far too interested in her Windrunner counterparts, so it’s plausible she would have wanted to become more familiar with Alethi. She could be motivated enough to have gotten good at it in that time. And Kaladin, at least, seems to assume most of the other Fused and some regular Singers do not know much Alethi; he uses gestures and simple imperatives when speaking to them after fights.

I like the idea of the tower having a universal translator after the Sibling gets fully online, because the one language moment I did question was Rlain stepping in between the humans and Singers at the end. He appears to be talking in Alethi the whole time, even when he tells the Fused and Regals they’re traitors. At least, I assumed this because the humans don’t ask what he just said to the Singers. It’s possible that only the leaders, like Leshwi, understood him, but better if everybody did.

[Lunu’anaki he/him]

On 1/6/2021 at 3:48 PM, AquaRegia said:

The Fused can hardly be expected to understand “modern” human languages, which probably didn’t exist 4500 years ago, and indeed, at first, they all seem to require translators like Venli.  At the beginning of RoW, the only communication between Windrunners and Heavenly Ones is accomplished by gestures… yet by the end of RoW, Leshwi and Kaladin seem to be conversing easily.  In what tongue?

Please help me get past this stupid detail which is diminishing my enjoyment!

Are there really that many interactions between Fused and humans? I think we are only treated to Leshwi, Raboniel, and the Defeated(yes I will only use his new title ) I think Raboniel's Alethi knowledge was pretty straightforward she is a scholar after-all, with Leshwi... well, she's been thinking about Bridge 4 for quite some time.

The Defeated is the tough one. He doesn't say much to Kaladin directly, so it's possible he only speaks some Alethi, and isn't fluent. I think he mainly just needed to know Alethi in order to operate as a good antagonist.

 

OR: Maybe the fused, being similar to the heralds, have some connection based spiritual realm stuff going on. We know the Heralds can all speak with connection at will.

 

[AquaRegia he/him]

6 hours ago, Lunu’anaki said:

Are there really that many interactions between Fused and humans? I think we are only treated to Leshwi, Raboniel, and the Defeated(yes I will only use his new title ) I think Raboniel's Alethi knowledge was pretty straightforward she is a scholar after-all, with Leshwi... well, she's been thinking about Bridge 4 for quite some time.

The Defeated is the tough one. He doesn't say much to Kaladin directly, so it's possible he only speaks some Alethi, and isn't fluent. I think he mainly just needed to know Alethi in order to operate as a good antagonist.

OR: Maybe the fused, being similar to the heralds, have some connection based spiritual realm stuff going on. We know the Heralds can all speak with connection at will.

 

The Pursuer Defeated One is a great example.  He clearly has no trouble understanding what Kaladin is saying, and he does speak.  He JUST arrived on Roshar after 4,500 years on Braize.  There is no possible way he'd know any modern Alethi.  And the "Fused speak with Connection" thing doesn't wash for me.  If that were true, they wouldn't need translator forms like Venli's.  Raboniel is explicitly shown LEARNING Alethi - at first she needs Venli as a translator; later she speaks with a thick accent; by the end she's fluent.

I just re-read the conclave of The Nine chapter.  Moash is there - he not only understands what's happening, but addresses the group (with an accent).  So apparently he can speak Fused now.  Lift has learned flawless idiomatic Alethi in a few months.  Am I the only one who feels that learning a new language on Roshar is just way too easy?  LOL

My wife keeps saying "relax, it's just a story," and I get that.  The story is more important than the details.  But BS has always been SO GOOD at maintaining the detailed consistency of his worlds... if there is a magical explanation for it, at least tell me.  I don't like this feeling of being let down in this!  *stomps foot and holds breath*

[Kyn]

Hmm, maybe we’re missing something. Doesn’t Talenalat’Elin speak what sounds like a northern dialect of Alethi when he first arrives army the warcamp back in I-7 at the beginning of Part 3 of Words of Radiance?

If a Herald who had been trapped in Braize for 4 millennia is actually speaking a recognizable dialect, it might not just be a Herald translational thing born of their Connection.
 

Spoiler

 

It’s possible that some version of the language has remained similar enough throughout the years that anyone who spoke this dialect back then would still understand the basics of modern Alethi. Not especially likely, but plausible given that certain languages have religious/cultural significance, such as the Dawnchant surviving across the Desolations.

Languages persisting unusually long has happened on occasion in the real world, with some languages today recognizable thousands of years ago…with varying degrees of consistency across time. Rapid linguistic change that makes comprehension impossible after only centuries (or far less) is more common in disjointed tribal societies and in societies with more rapid social, cultural, or technological change and greater interaction with other cultures.

Granted, we have no way of knowing if any of this is the case in Roshar, let alone why the Pursuer would be among the few Fused who happen to have known this ancient Alethi dialect, should it exist.

 

However, there is also an easier potential explanation for the Pursuer knowing Alethi. Since he was not the newly-awakened Fused in Chapter 14 of Rhythm of War, we have no idea how long he has been on Roshar again when we first meet him. I assume not too long, or his abilities would have been noticed because he seems the type to use them flagrantly, but he could simply have been around long enough to learn the language.

Small details like that not being explained, however, can really throw off suspension of disbelief, especially in a work that generally does so well with logically connecting things. I’m looking at potential justifications of these apparent inconsistencies, but until they’re set straight in-story, all of this is just trusting the author and thus trying to make excuses for what looks like dropped balls.

[Lunu’anaki he/him]

12 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

Am I the only one who feels that learning a new language on Roshar is just way too easy?  LOL

Well... Roshar has been heavily influenced by Honor, and honor is known as the shard of connection. Connection is the surge that's been used in every Cosmere magic system for translation purposes. What if a land and a people being infused by Honor really does make it easier to learn a language on Roshar? I mean we saw firsthand how quickly Raboniel learned Alethi, maybe that isn't because of her intelligence, but because of realmatics.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

13 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

The Pursuer Defeated One is a great example.  He clearly has no trouble understanding what Kaladin is saying, and he does speak.  He JUST arrived on Roshar after 4,500 years on Braize.  There is no possible way he'd know any modern Alethi.  And the "Fused speak with Connection" thing doesn't wash for me.  If that were true, they wouldn't need translator forms like Venli's.  Raboniel is explicitly shown LEARNING Alethi - at first she needs Venli as a translator; later she speaks with a thick accent; by the end she's fluent.

I just re-read the conclave of The Nine chapter.  Moash is there - he not only understands what's happening, but addresses the group (with an accent).  So apparently he can speak Fused now.  Lift has learned flawless idiomatic Alethi in a few months.  Am I the only one who feels that learning a new language on Roshar is just way too easy?  LOL

My wife keeps saying "relax, it's just a story," and I get that.  The story is more important than the details.  But BS has always been SO GOOD at maintaining the detailed consistency of his worlds... if there is a magical explanation for it, at least tell me.  I don't like this feeling of being let down in this!  *stomps foot and holds breath*

For Lift there’s a fairly simple explanation: Azir and Alethi are related languages. I only know a small amount of Yiddish, but it’s enough for me to understand a surprising amount of the closely related German. Someone who speaks Hebrew will have an easier time learning Arabic, and viceversa.

Assuming the two languages are still closely related, she should be able to learn the new one quickly. Especially since the grammatical structure should be retained across both.

[AquaRegia he/him]

12 hours ago, Lunu’anaki said:

Well... Roshar has been heavily influenced by Honor, and honor is known as the shard of connection. Connection is the surge that's been used in every Cosmere magic system for translation purposes. What if a land and a people being infused by Honor really does make it easier to learn a language on Roshar? I mean we saw firsthand how quickly Raboniel learned Alethi, maybe that isn't because of her intelligence, but because of realmatics.

I love this, thank you Lunu!  This will be my very comforting headcanon (unless something better comes along).

10 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

For Lift there’s a fairly simple explanation: Azir and Alethi are related languages. I only know a small amount of Yiddish, but it’s enough for me to understand a surprising amount of the closely related German. Someone who speaks Hebrew will have an easier time learning Arabic, and viceversa.

Assuming the two languages are still closely related, she should be able to learn the new one quickly. Especially since the grammatical structure should be retained across both.

I can buy this.  I've also seen speculation that Lift's communication abilities may stem from her Edgedancer oaths - "I will listen to those who have not been heard."