theory The Stormfather will die in Book 5

[KandraAllomancer he/him]

We know that Taravangian found some loophole that possibly allows him to win with Dalinar somehow, probably based on something that Rayse couldn't have predicted and/or simply would never do. Here I'd like to propose my guess: Taravangian plans to kill the Stormfather.

It's actually scarily easy to pull off in just three steps:

A. Manipulate Ishar into stealing Dalinar's bond with the SF

B. Manipulate Szeth into killing Ishar, killing or wounding the SF in the process

C. If necessary, finish the SF off with anti-Stormlight

This would probably destroy the Highstorms, creating something like a never ending Weeping (the Night of Sorrows?), described in multiple Death Rattles:

Quote

"I'm cold. Mother, I'm cold. Mother? Why can I still hear the rain? Will it stop?"

"Light grows so distant. The storm never stops. I am broken, and all around me have died. I weep for the end of all things. He has won. Oh, he has beaten us."

"You've killed me. Bastards, you've killed me! While the sun is still hot, I die!"

"So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life..."

Honor's Perpendicularity would probably settle on a permanent location at the Origin, explaining the line from Puuli's interlude (describing Skybreakers maybe?):

Quote

They’ll come with Light in their pockets. They’ll come to destroy, but you should watch for them anyway. Because they’ll come from the Origin. The sailors lost on an infinite sea.

Without easy access to Stormlight for Team Radiant, Odium should be able to crush them easily, conquer all of Roshar and take Honor's Investiture for himself, which would free him from Braize.

 

A possible Arc 1 ending resolution I see would be something like this:

The Everstorm gets taken over by the recently freed Ba-Ado-Mishram, thwarting Odium's plans.

Dalinar Ascends to Honor using the unchained powers of Ishar's Honorblade and possibly (Dawnshard spoilers).

Spoiler

the Unity Dawnshard (if such thing exists)

Kaladin dies, but his Cognitive Shadow replaces the Stormfather in the newly re-created Highstorm, changing its nature to be far less destructive.

Dalinar changes the nature of Stormlight and bonds, allowing Radiants to travel across Cosmere. Shallan becomes a worldhopper.

Moash bonds with Dai-gonarthis and becomes Odium's avatar:

Quote

"Let me no longer hurt! Let me no longer weep! Dai-gonarthis! The Black Fisher holds my sorrow and consumes it!"

He continues Odium's work on Roshar and searches for a way to free him, eventually starting the plot of Arc 2

Edited December 5, 2020 by KandraAllomancer

[ftl]

Ooh, all plausible, I think.

Except for the Moash being the part 2 antagonist. I'm expecting all the major plotlines of this arc 1 to be wrapped up; so Arc 2 both the heroes and the villains will be characters who so far have had a secondary role. So no Moash as major player in part 2.

[Karger he/him]

4 hours ago, KandraAllomancer said:

B. Manipulate Szeth into killing Ishar, killing or wounding the SF in the process

The death of a radiant might be traumatic but it usually does not do any serious damage.

4 hours ago, KandraAllomancer said:

C. If necessary, finish the SF off with anti-Stormlight

How are you going to generate enough?

4 hours ago, KandraAllomancer said:

Without easy access to Stormlight for Team Radiant, Odium should be able to crush them easily, conquer all of Roshar and take Honor's Investiture for himself, which would free him from Braize.

They have a second source of light with Navani.  She can generate towerlight and use rhythms to separate out the lifelight and stormlight.

4 hours ago, KandraAllomancer said:

This would probably destroy the Highstorms, creating something like a never ending Weeping (the Night of Sorrows?), described in multiple Death Rattles:

I mean yeah but the end result would be the death of basically everyone except team honor as they still have Navani and no one else can grow anything.

[KandraAllomancer he/him]

8 minutes ago, Karger said:

The death of a radiant might be traumatic but it usually does not do any serious damage.

I had Nightblood in mind when I wrote it, I should have been more explicit about that

9 minutes ago, Karger said:

How are you going to generate enough?

Anti-Investiture seems like a plausible explanation for Rayse's Shard Vessel killing abilities; if that was the case, Taravangian should be able to generate enough to take down the SF

14 minutes ago, Karger said:

They have a second source of light with Navani.  She can generate towerlight and use rhythms to separate out the lifelight and stormlight.

That's a valid point, but don't think Navani can generate enough Light to match the whole Highstorm and support the whole army

16 minutes ago, Karger said:

I mean yeah but the end result would be the death of basically everyone except team honor as they still have Navani and no one else can grow anything.

That probably depends on how long it would take to defeat the Radiants outside of Urithiru. With a massive Voidbringer offensive, monopolizing the access to Soulcasters (and possibly corrupting them so they run on Voidlight) and the Origin, the ability to create food from Voidlight (Odium is a Shard, so must be able to do that) he could probably win within a reasonable timeline. Then it's only the matter of merging Odium and Honor, at which point he would be free to leave Braize and could restore the Highstorm on his own terms

[Karger he/him]

35 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

Anti-Investiture seems like a plausible explanation for Rayse's Shard Vessel killing abilities; if that was the case, Taravangian should be able to generate enough to take down the SF

I think that a bit of a leap.  Also Taravangian is bound to Braize.  Getting antivoidlight to roshar in large quantities seems pretty difficult.  More so when you consider that most of his servants would blow up if they touched any.  Finally what happens if team honor captures it and uses it on the everstorm?  You are also presupposing that antivoidlight will work on the stormfather.

36 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

I had Nightblood in mind when I wrote it, I should have been more explicit about that

Sending an agent with stolen NB to kill the stormfather is a bit more plausible.  However fueling NB through the destruction of an entity as large as the stormfather is a challenge in of itself.

37 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

That's a valid point, but don't think Navani can generate enough Light to match the whole Highstorm and support the whole army

According to smart Taravangian Urithiru was self sufficient and Navani states it could support a population in the millions.

38 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

That probably depends on how long it would take to defeat the Radiants outside of Urithiru. With a massive Voidbringer offensive, monopolizing the access to Soulcasters (and possibly corrupting them so they run on Voidlight) and the Origin, the ability to create food from Voidlight (Odium is a Shard, so must be able to do that) he could probably win within a reasonable timeline

Very few wars have been won on anything resembling a reasonable timeline.  If team honor knows no more storms are happening and can figure out at least a bit of the potential ecological devastation then everyone with half a mind is going to run right toward the nearest oathgate city.  Team radiant will focus on protecting them.  In the meantime most of roshar is going to die.  Odium has the theoretical ability to do lots of stuff but he is still stuck on braize and can't.  If he could provide food at will then his armies would have a huge advantage in the field. 

[KandraAllomancer he/him]

21 hours ago, Karger said:

I think that a bit of a leap.  Also Taravangian is bound to Braize.  Getting antivoidlight to roshar in large quantities seems pretty difficult.  More so when you consider that most of his servants would blow up if they touched any.  Finally what happens if team honor captures it and uses it on the everstorm?  You are also presupposing that antivoidlight will work on the stormfather.

Odium is bound to Braize, but his Investiture isn't. He can control the Unmade, and unmade them again into something else. Creating an Unmade (a new one or from an existing one) that can create anti-Stormlight from Stormlight or food from Voidlight seems to be within the realm of possibility. The latter should also be possible for the Transformation Fused

21 hours ago, Karger said:

Sending an agent with stolen NB to kill the stormfather is a bit more plausible.  However fueling NB through the destruction of an entity as large as the stormfather is a challenge in of itself.

The NB was enough to kill a Vessel, so killing a spren, even a large one and bonded, seems possible

21 hours ago, Karger said:

According to smart Taravangian Urithiru was self sufficient and Navani states it could support a population in the millions.

Technically yes, but once it's flooded with refugees from all over Roshar and doesn't have a sustainable source of emeralds for Soulcasters...

21 hours ago, Karger said:

Very few wars have been won on anything resembling a reasonable timeline.  If team honor knows no more storms are happening and can figure out at least a bit of the potential ecological devastation then everyone with half a mind is going to run right toward the nearest oathgate city.  Team radiant will focus on protecting them.  In the meantime most of roshar is going to die.  Odium has the theoretical ability to do lots of stuff but he is still stuck on braize and can't.  If he could provide food at will then his armies would have a huge advantage in the field. 

Rayse (according to his first talk with Dalinar in OB) had a plan to destroy all splinters of Honor and change the nature of Roshar, so that is technically possible. The number of victims would be huge, true, but that's not something that stopped Taravangian before

[Karger he/him]

2 hours ago, KandraAllomancer said:

Odium is bound to Braize, but his Investiture isn't. He can control the Unmade, and unmade them again into something else

He is highly connected to the unmade.  The rules are different.

2 hours ago, KandraAllomancer said:

Creating an Unmade (a new one or from an existing one) that can create anti-Stormlight from Stormlight or food from Voidlight seems to be within the realm of possibility

Maybe.  We know he can unmake them again.  I do not know if that allows for him remaking an unmade into anything he wants.  It seems if he could do that he would have done so several times.  Additionally allowing an unmade the control over stormlight necessary to generate its opposite means connecting it to the enemy.  Such a spren is not particularlly useful if it will not serve you.

2 hours ago, KandraAllomancer said:

The latter should also be possible for the Transformation Fused

Possible maybe.  I don't think it would be advisable.  Savantism is a problem even for cognitive shadows.  Hoid himself is not immune. 

2 hours ago, KandraAllomancer said:

The NB was enough to kill a Vessel, so killing a spren, even a large one and bonded, seems possible

Possible yes.  Easy no.

2 hours ago, KandraAllomancer said:

Technically yes, but once it's flooded with refugees from all over Roshar and doesn't have a sustainable source of emeralds for Soulcasters...

I was referring to the farming operations that used the Sibling's light.  Yes there would be a massive die off of humans but their would also be a die off of singers.  In the end I think the humans would fare a bit better.

2 hours ago, KandraAllomancer said:

Rayse (according to his first talk with Dalinar in OB) had a plan to destroy all splinters of Honor and change the nature of Roshar, so that is technically possible. The number of victims would be huge, true, but that's not something that stopped Taravangian before

My point is not that it is impossible.  It is that this course of action is difficult, dangerous, and unlikely to yield good results in the medium to long term.  Taravangian is a plotter and he is patient.  Killing the stormfather right now does not really improve his situation even if he is successful while if he is unsuccessful the penalties are severe. 

Another point I should probably bring up is the energy output of killing the stormfather could be severe.  It would be a lot like nuking the planet.  I am not sure anyone would survive for very long if the explosion is as big as I think it could be.

 

Edited December 7, 2020 by Karger

[KandraAllomancer he/him]

13 hours ago, Karger said:

My point is not that it is impossible.  It is that this course of action is difficult, dangerous, and unlikely to yield good results in the medium to long term.  Taravangian is a plotter and he is patient.  Killing the stormfather right now does not really improve his situation even if he is successful while if he is unsuccessful the penalties are severe. 

Another point I should probably bring up is the energy output of killing the stormfather could be severe.  It would be a lot like nuking the planet.  I am not sure anyone would survive for very long if the explosion is as big as I think it could be.

Come to think about it, there's an even simpler way to hurt the Radiants - Ishar's Honorblade should be enough to imprison the Stormfather in a perfect gemstone. This should be even worse than what happened to BAM - Radiant spren would all be affected somehow. It's also way easier to fix once either side wins

[Karger he/him]

3 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

Come to think about it, there's an even simpler way to hurt the Radiants - Ishar's Honorblade should be enough to imprison the Stormfather in a perfect gemstone. This should be even worse than what happened to BAM - Radiant spren would all be affected somehow. It's also way easier to fix once either side wins

We have no idea what Ishar's blade is capable of.  You would need a huge gemstone to imprison the stormfather but Odium should be able to do that.

[Leuthie]

It's setup pretty well for the Stormfather to become a deadeye and to be "fixed" when all of the other deadeyes are "fixed".

1. Shallan will be seeking BAM's gem.
2. Dalinar will probably lose the contest, requiring a breaking of Oaths, causing Stormfather to deadeye.
3. Someone will free BAM and the Connection will be restored to all deadeyes, waking them in the same way parshmen were awakened.

This is a little too predictable and results in little change. The permanent death of the Highstorm alongside a victory by the good guys is actually a great way to end the front 5 and take a long in-world break. We can see the medium term results of Roshar with no Highstorm when we get back for book 6.

Edited December 7, 2020 by Leuthie

[Denissimo He/him]

Well then. This was an apt prediction.

[Through The Living Grub He/Him]

2 hours ago, Denissimo said:

Well then. This was an apt prediction.

Necroing threads is generally not allowed. There is a thread about forum policies (such as post necromancy) HERE if you are interested.

If you would like to comment on old topics you could make a new topic and link this one.

[Denissimo He/him]

20 hours ago, Through The Living Grub said:

Necroing threads is generally not allowed. There is a thread about forum policies (such as post necromancy) HERE if you are interested.

If you would like to comment on old topics you could make a new topic and link this one.

Ah. Well, I hope my reply to you doesn't count as further necro-ing, but I apologise for the oversight.