Sazed and Confused Posted November 30, 2020 Posted November 30, 2020 Hi everyone, I am new here but I have a few thoughts on the epilogue and why Brandon may have been so excited to write it. 1.) I do not believe Hoid stores memories in his Breaths, at all. If you've read Warbreaker then there is no mention of memories being stored there. I think it's entirely possible that this information was planted by Hoid in case something happened to the actual vessel of Odium. Even Hoid alludes to this be saying he felt someone messing with his perfect pitch. I think that is a purposeful statement to let the reader know that he realized he's being messed with and it's just his perfect pitch. 2.) He alludes to his "real" coin that was palmed in his hand. I believe this is actually referring to the coppermind Coin that Hoid gives away. 3.) The differences in speech as well, as others have pointed out indicate that Hoid knew perfectly well that something was amiss. I could be wrong but that was how it seemed to me.
Kingsdaughter613 she/her Posted November 30, 2020 Posted November 30, 2020 39 minutes ago, Sazed and Confused said: Hi everyone, I am new here but I have a few thoughts on the epilogue and why Brandon may have been so excited to write it. 1.) I do not believe Hoid stores memories in his Breaths, at all. If you've read Warbreaker then there is no mention of memories being stored there. I think it's entirely possible that this information was planted by Hoid in case something happened to the actual vessel of Odium. Even Hoid alludes to this be saying he felt someone messing with his perfect pitch. I think that is a purposeful statement to let the reader know that he realized he's being messed with and it's just his perfect pitch. 2.) He alludes to his "real" coin that was palmed in his hand. I believe this is actually referring to the coppermind Coin that Hoid gives away. 3.) The differences in speech as well, as others have pointed out indicate that Hoid knew perfectly well that something was amiss. I could be wrong but that was how it seemed to me. There is actually. Vasher gets a girl to wipe part of her memory by altering her Breath. It’s the scene where he rescued the Priest’s daughter. 6
thorongil he/him Posted November 30, 2020 Posted November 30, 2020 It has been discussed in similar threads and as of now (and probably at least until Stormlight 5) there is no consensus in the debate who exactly tricked whom in this scene. My take on your points: 1.) There have to be some memories in those breaths since I cannot see how a Shard would be fooled into thinking there are, when there are none. Just because it is not in Warbreaker does not mean it can't be done. In terms of Cosmere-knowledge Warbreaker is quite shallow and we have since seen - Navani is the prime example for this - that Investiture can be used quite creatively if one has the right means and Intent. We know that memories can be stored using Feruchemy so I would generally assume that knowing the right techniques memories can be stored using other forms of Investiture. And the scene clearly shows that Wit is terrified for at least the moment he realizes that something is up he has not expected. Also, the perfect pitch would be a side effect of falling below a certain Hightening, not of someone messing with his perfect pitch. I believe the answer to this is ambivalent. I feel that in some capacity Hoid has been bested in this scene as he encountered something he just has not expected. That said, if he is as crafty and careful as we have gotten him to know I also assume that he had some measure of security in place for such an event. Maybe the memories are somehow altered or maybe they are a careful selection of information to present a certain picture. In any case, the way this is written I cannot see a way in which Hoid has not been bested in this situation at least partly; his terror and his surprise are too real and in my mind Brandon would lose a lot of credibility as a writer if this was merely duplicity by Hoid. 2.) That sounds quite reasonable. However, after thinking about the scene some more I feel that the coins might actually be Hoid's safety net copperminds, so he has some fallback in case all else goes to hell. 3.) "Perfectly well" seems like a strong statement to me; sounds more like he was at least aware that something might be amiss, a clue for him to figure it out. Random thought: Maybe it's not so bad for Hoid to lose some of his memories. We how taxing these insanely long lifespans (and thus memories) can be for individuals (although, of course, Heralds and Fused have problems like constant torture as well). We also see that many mistakes the Vessels make tend to be rooted in their underestimating individuals and the potential of their action. Maybe losing some of his mega-awareness could be beneficial for Hoid in that he has to focus on the here and now a bit more and invest himself into Roshar (and maybe, who knows, his relationship with Jasnah) more dedicatedly. 2
Kingsdaughter613 she/her Posted November 30, 2020 Posted November 30, 2020 3 minutes ago, thorongil said: It has been discussed in similar threads and as of now (and probably at least until Stormlight 5) there is no consensus in the debate who exactly tricked whom in this scene. My take on your points: 1.) There have to be some memories in those breaths since I cannot see how a Shard would be fooled into thinking there are, when there are none. Just because it is not in Warbreaker does not mean it can't be done. In terms of Cosmere-knowledge Warbreaker is quite shallow and we have since seen - Navani is the prime example for this - that Investiture can be used quite creatively if one has the right means and Intent. We know that memories can be stored using Feruchemy so I would generally assume that knowing the right techniques memories can be stored using other forms of Investiture. And the scene clearly shows that Wit is terrified for at least the moment he realizes that something is up he has not expected. Also, the perfect pitch would be a side effect of falling below a certain Hightening, not of someone messing with his perfect pitch. I believe the answer to this is ambivalent. I feel that in some capacity Hoid has been bested in this scene as he encountered something he just has not expected. That said, if he is as crafty and careful as we have gotten him to know I also assume that he had some measure of security in place for such an event. Maybe the memories are somehow altered or maybe they are a careful selection of information to present a certain picture. In any case, the way this is written I cannot see a way in which Hoid has not been bested in this situation at least partly; his terror and his surprise are too real and in my mind Brandon would lose a lot of credibility as a writer if this was merely duplicity by Hoid. 2.) That sounds quite reasonable. However, after thinking about the scene some more I feel that the coins might actually be Hoid's safety net copperminds, so he has some fallback in case all else goes to hell. 3.) "Perfectly well" seems like a strong statement to me; sounds more like he was at least aware that something might be amiss, a clue for him to figure it out. Random thought: Maybe it's not so bad for Hoid to lose some of his memories. We how taxing these insanely long lifespans (and thus memories) can be for individuals (although, of course, Heralds and Fused have problems like constant torture as well). We also see that many mistakes the Vessels make tend to be rooted in their underestimating individuals and the potential of their action. Maybe losing some of his mega-awareness could be beneficial for Hoid in that he has to focus on the here and now a bit more and invest himself into Roshar (and maybe, who knows, his relationship with Jasnah) more dedicatedly. It IS in Warbreaker. We see something similar happen in a scene there. This could indicate that Breath naturally acts as repository for storing Connection to one’s past experiences, since I doubt that little girl was doing anything intentionally.
thorongil he/him Posted November 30, 2020 Posted November 30, 2020 Just now, Kingsdaughter613 said: It IS in Warbreaker. We see something similar happen in a scene there. This could indicate that Breath naturally acts as repository for storing Connection to one’s past experiences, since I doubt that little girl was doing anything intentionally. I totally forgot that, but it makes a lot of sense since Breath in a more philosophical sense seems to be what makes people human in Warbreaker. Memories are a huge part of humanity and of how we construct our collective history as a species.
Sazed and Confused Posted November 30, 2020 Author Posted November 30, 2020 11 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: There is actually. Vasher gets a girl to wipe part of her memory by altering her Breath. It’s the scene where he rescued the Priest’s daughter. I had actually forgotten about that part. So I stand corrected on that point.
Kingsdaughter613 she/her Posted November 30, 2020 Posted November 30, 2020 1 minute ago, thorongil said: I totally forgot that, but it makes a lot of sense since Breath in a more philosophical sense seems to be what makes people human in Warbreaker. Memories are a huge part of humanity and of how we construct our collective history as a species. Just now, Sazed and Confused said: I had actually forgotten about that part. So I stand corrected on that point. It’s a minor scene and quickly forgotten. But I think it may have been foreshadowing this one, especially considering Warbreaker’s ‘prologue to SA’ status. Which does not bode well for Wit.
Sazed and Confused Posted November 30, 2020 Author Posted November 30, 2020 2 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: It IS in Warbreaker. We see something similar happen in a scene there. This could indicate that Breath naturally acts as repository for storing Connection to one’s past experiences, since I doubt that little girl was doing anything intentionally. Although I always thought that part of the investiture was that there needed to be some type consent to allow your breaths to be taken or changed. Now I'm not sure that matters when an actual Shard is involved. I did find it funny that Hoid stated that he felt something off about his perfect pitch. I'm not sure it's explicitly stated that any breaths were taken away just that he's aware that something is happening. 1
thorongil he/him Posted November 30, 2020 Posted November 30, 2020 Just now, Sazed and Confused said: Although I always thought that part of the investiture was that there needed to be some type consent to allow your breaths to be taken or changed. Now I'm not sure that matters when an actual Shard is involved. I did find it funny that Hoid stated that he felt something off about his perfect pitch. I'm not sure it's explicitly stated that any breaths were taken away just that he's aware that something is happening. It's not explicitly quoted but it's heavily implied in my reading that he lost enough Breaths to fall below the Fifth Heigthening.
Kingsdaughter613 she/her Posted November 30, 2020 Posted November 30, 2020 Just now, Sazed and Confused said: Although I always thought that part of the investiture was that there needed to be some type consent to allow your breaths to be taken or changed. Now I'm not sure that matters when an actual Shard is involved. I did find it funny that Hoid stated that he felt something off about his perfect pitch. I'm not sure it's explicitly stated that any breaths were taken away just that he's aware that something is happening. Vivenna notes the girl’s Breath ‘flickered’, like it was slightly damaged. It really does fit well with what we see here. Sneaky Brandon! Foreshadowing in a (technically) different series.
Sazed and Confused Posted November 30, 2020 Author Posted November 30, 2020 1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: Vivenna notes the girl’s Breath ‘flickered’, like it was slightly damaged. It really does fit well with what we see here. Sneaky Brandon! Foreshadowing in a (technically) different series. Now that you've pointed it out I definitely see the correlation. There is a lot more happening in this epilogue than we probably know because Hoid specifically mentions the picking apart of an illusion. So perhaps everything that followed was a performance piece be Hoid. Although thorongil pointed out the Coin is definely important to the scene and it most likely his backup in case anything went wrong. Perhaps the larger question to the scene is why is Hoid inviting Odium to find him in the first place. It's clearly purposeful. The obvious answer is he wants to see what Odium's reaction is to him after the contract and how far Rayse was willing to go. All of this just leaves me excited to see where this will go with T-Odium who is clearly willing to do anything so long as he believes it is for the greater good in his own mind. should make for an exciting Book 5.
Hurricane_Privileged Posted November 30, 2020 Posted November 30, 2020 I think it's less likely Hoid lost the Breaths and more likely that they were corrupted. We've seen Odium corrupt other Shards Investiture, and the Investiture tends to lose some of its original properties once corrupted. I'm guessing Hoid's perfect pitch being lost is a side effect of corrupted Breaths. I don't see how tOdium would remove or destroy another shards Investiture outright, but I could be wrong 1
thorongil he/him Posted November 30, 2020 Posted November 30, 2020 1 hour ago, Hurricane_Privileged said: I think it's less likely Hoid lost the Breaths and more likely that they were corrupted. We've seen Odium corrupt other Shards Investiture, and the Investiture tends to lose some of its original properties once corrupted. I'm guessing Hoid's perfect pitch being lost is a side effect of corrupted Breaths. I don't see how tOdium would remove or destroy another shards Investiture outright, but I could be wrong I'm not so sure about this. Have we actually seen Odium directly corrupt anyone? I might be totally wrong here, but in my mind the corruption has been done by Unmade like Sja-Anat and we know that red signifies corrupted Investiture as such; but have we actually seen Odium himself do it? How would his intent fit with corrupting, instead of destroying? On the other hand, so far we do not have any confirmation that Breaths can be taken against the will of somebody - quite the contrary, if I remember Warbreaker correctly - so the idea that he removed some of Hoid's breaths is also sketchy to me.
+Aletus he/him Posted December 1, 2020 Posted December 1, 2020 At least one thing is certain. Knowing mb era 2 takes place after book 5, and Hoid plays his meddling role in BoM, he's at least not completely screwed by whatever happened. 2
IndigoAjah he/him Posted December 1, 2020 Posted December 1, 2020 Has Wit ever given a character in Stormlight Archive a coin permanently? I have a feeling he has...
thorongil he/him Posted December 1, 2020 Posted December 1, 2020 6 hours ago, Arch1tect said: At least one thing is certain. Knowing mb era 2 takes place after book 5, and Hoid plays his meddling role in BoM, he's at least not completely screwed by whatever happened. I only recalled that yesterday, when I wanted to make a thread about how we haven't seen Hoid in Sixth of the Dusk and whether that could hint that he doesn't survive the next Stormlight book. Yeah, he doesn't seem all too different in the Wax & Wayne books, his behavior and appearance are, I'd argue, consistent with what we have seen from him before, so the the damage done to him by Odium can't be that extreme (or he has since found a way to reverse the effects).
Infinity Sliver Posted December 1, 2020 Posted December 1, 2020 7 minutes ago, thorongil said: I only recalled that yesterday, when I wanted to make a thread about how we haven't seen Hoid in Sixth of the Dusk and whether that could hint that he doesn't survive the next Stormlight book. Yeah, he doesn't seem all too different in the Wax & Wayne books, his behavior and appearance are, I'd argue, consistent with what we have seen from him before, so the the damage done to him by Odium can't be that extreme (or he has since found a way to reverse the effects). I'm pretty sure Bandon said the last Mistborn era features Hoid and the Sleepless a lot Also,I'm off the camp that his Breaths got corrupted. Before this book,I was totally sure Investiture couldnt be destroyed but it doesnt seem Odium can destroy Investiture and maybe corrupted Investiture could mean you cant access it so it seems like you've lost it,kinda like corrupted memory(hehehe) 1
coolsnow7 Posted December 6, 2020 Posted December 6, 2020 On 11/30/2020 at 10:10 AM, Sazed and Confused said: Hi everyone, I am new here but I have a few thoughts on the epilogue and why Brandon may have been so excited to write it. 1.) I do not believe Hoid stores memories in his Breaths, at all. If you've read Warbreaker then there is no mention of memories being stored there. I think it's entirely possible that this information was planted by Hoid in case something happened to the actual vessel of Odium. Even Hoid alludes to this be saying he felt someone messing with his perfect pitch. I think that is a purposeful statement to let the reader know that he realized he's being messed with and it's just his perfect pitch. 2.) He alludes to his "real" coin that was palmed in his hand. I believe this is actually referring to the coppermind Coin that Hoid gives away. 3.) The differences in speech as well, as others have pointed out indicate that Hoid knew perfectly well that something was amiss. I could be wrong but that was how it seemed to me. Why would he feel “true terror for the first time” then?
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