Why Odium cannot win over Kaladin

[Hearty_Joe]

There has a been a lot of speculation that with the early focus on Kaladin's survivor's guilt pain, Brandon Sanderson is setting up a potential story arc where he finds solace from his pain by "giving it" to Odium (possibly even becoming his champion). I simply don't understand how that would work from a psychological point of view.

Of the two characters who Odium directly challenged, Dalinar retained his pain, while Moash let Odium have his. It seems to me that the opportunity to allow Odium to have one's pain is a means of ridding one's self of having to acknowledge and take ownership of one's feelings and actions. Instead they can disassociate themselves from their actions, blaming it on Odium or an influence from one of his unmade instead. (Originally I believed Hoid's tale of the Wandersail to be an analogy of Szeth, but I believe it also refers to people who put their faith in Odium. Taking responsibility for one's actions is a motif of the Stormlight Archive).

Moash turned to Odium as a way of coping with the guilt of his conscience. He knew/knows what he's doing isn't honorable. By turning to Odium he can live without the guilt associated with his vengeful, murderous actions.

Dalinar's story arc in Oathbringer concludes with him fully acknowledging his role in the massacres he performed. By holding onto his pain and rejecting Odium, he completely accepts responsibility for what he's done- along with the guilt and pain he initially had gone to great lengths to avoid. Had he accepted Odium's offer as Moash does, he would have been excusing his role in the monstrous actions he himself had taken. He would have fled responsibility. And remained the Blackthorn.

And now to Kaladin; he is not similar to Dalinar or Moash. In contrast to their evil passion filled murders, there is honor in Kaladin's pain. He doesn't suffer because he couldn't stop himself from doing evil (like Moash and Dalinar). He feels pain because he couldn't do more good. In fact, I would venture to say that if anything, he should give away his pain. Much like someone who holds onto the cherished memories of a lost loved one to the point they can't move on, sometimes to honor the dead, you have to let go so you can honor them by living. Unlike Moash and Dalinar who need to face their actions and accept the pain of guilt and corruption instead of compartmentalizing it, Kaladin needs to let go and realize there is no proper reason for him to feel guilty.He can remember those who died under his care, without holding onto the pain and guilt that comes along with it.

With this distinction, I believe Odium tempting Kaladin with his modus operandi of helping people disassociate themselves from their pain is simply a non-starter. With Moash and Dalinar the result would be a ruthless killer, with Kaladin it would be a functioning Radiant.

Just my thoughts. If anyone has posted similar thoughts please direct me. 

 

Edited October 7, 2020 by Hearty_Joe

[Schneeente]

Quote

With Moash and Dalinar the result would be a ruthless killer, with Kaladin at would be a functioning Radiant.

The moment Kaladin gives his pain to Odium he gives Odium leverage over him. So Kal wouldn't be a functioning radiant but a compromised one in my opinion. 

 

/edit: And that would destroy the trust of so many and would probably be a serious blow to morale and fighting power for team radiant. 

Edited October 6, 2020 by Schneeente

[Hearty_Joe]

3 minutes ago, Schneeente said:

The moment Kaladin gives his pain to Odium he gives Odium leverage over him. So Kal wouldn't be a functioning radiant but a compromised one in my opinion. 

Unlike Moash and Dalinar, Kaladin would not become a ruthless killer though. I don't see Brandon having a major character betraying Honor unless the stakes are high- a Radiant becoming Odium's Champion. Having Kaladin give Odium his pain and simply becoming compromised doesn't quite have the same impact...

[Schneeente]

My point is, that Kaladin will lose "everything" the moment he gives Odium his pain. It would essentially destroy him, so it would indeed be a valid strategy of Odium to tempt him. Not to get him as a champion, but to remove a weapon from his opponent's arsenal. 

[Hearty_Joe]

2 minutes ago, Schneeente said:

My point is, that Kaladin will lose "everything" the moment he gives Odium his pain. It would essentially destroy him

How so? Of Odium's two known attempts to conquer someone , the" destruction" of the person was simply the loss of conscience for their evil. Allowing the evil to run free. Kaladin has no such evil... Not quite understanding how Odium's "give me your pain" would adversely affect Kaladin...

[Diomedes]

Odium is a bit too smart for that. Moash`s attacks were very effective psychologically. He does not need for Kaladin to come over to his side. Making him suicidal is sufficient, i.e. giving away his pain means for Kaladin to kill himself, as brutal as that is. 

Edited October 6, 2020 by Diomedes

[Schneeente]

8 minutes ago, Hearty_Joe said:

How so? Of Odium's two known attempts to conquer someone , the" destruction" of the person was simply the loss of conscience for their evil. Allowing the evil to run free. Kaladin has no such evil... Not quite understanding how Odium's "give me your pain" would adversely affect Kaladin...

The moment your fellow radiants or friends know that you have given "your pain" to Odium, they won't trust you any longer. And you certainly cannot hold any position of power without trust. Who can say with certainty HOW compromised you really are.. what if Odium gives you "little missions" for his generosity of not feeling any pain any longer?
Apart from that a character changes drastically if he or she doesn't feel pain for his actions any longer. You basically have become a psychopath at that point. If you can do anything without a negative emotional response...  you might be tempted to act differently than before. Seriously, giving Odium your pain is not a good idea. 

[Hearty_Joe]

On 10/6/2020 at 4:31 PM, Diomedes said:

Odium is a bit too smart for that. Moash`s attacks were very effective psychologically. He does not need for Kaladin to come over to his side. Making him suicidal is sufficient, i.e. giving away his pain means for Kaladin to kill himself, as brutal as that is. 

I completely agree Diomedes. It fits nicely with the theme of Odium's victims fleeing rather than confronting pain that is too much to bear. Kaladin's pain avoidance would be via suicide (though there's NO WAY Brandon would go so dark).

 I was addressing how I'm confused by the "Give me your pain" style tactic that failed on Dalinar which a lot of people think would be effective on Kaladin. To me it's a non-sequitur, given the source of Kaladin's pain. Kaladin doesn't suffer from not taking responsibility and not holding himself accountable for his actions. His only freedom wouldn't mean joining Odium as Champion or servant, rather by simply ending himself and his grief along with him. 

Edited October 12, 2020 by Hearty_Joe

[Smye]

We've also got a pretty darn hefty WOB indicating Kalidin A) won't turn evil [at least not without a MASSIVE redemption] and B ) Won't die by his own hand.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/25/#e1751

 

thinformparshendi (paraphrased)

My wife asked if we would regret naming our firstborn Kaladin (seeing as we don't yet know how Kal turns out).

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You'll probably be very happy naming your son that.

Paris signing (Oct. 22, 2016)