Golstar Posted June 10, 2020 Posted June 10, 2020 Switcheroo Odium lead humans against Singers on Roshar. The Singers wield the investiture of Honor, binding. Odium corrupts the losing Singers (he's good at corrupting) and abandons the humans. Honor is a sucker for redemption and takes the party of the betrayed humans. Corrupted Singers are invested by Odium, so they can return and take vengeance.Braize, The Everstorm and the Oathpact Honor selects 10 Odium-invested humans, names them Heralds and make them bond to Braize somehow Heralds are reborn on Braize in the Everstorm As long as the Heralds are on Braize anything else stuck up there can't return to Roshar - they just get reborn in the Everstorm Odium isn't on Braize, but the Fused are, and they torture the Heralds until one breaks and the Everstorm returns to Roshar The Oathpact involves voluntary return to Braize to help out the other Heralds, so they can help each other resist the torture Each Honorblade binds an Unmade to BraizeRadiants and Honor Weakening Honor is weakened by increasingly divesting investiture to create Nahel Bonds between Spren and Radiants After many Desolations investing in increasing number of Spren and Bonds, he's so weak that he fails to stop the Heralds from abandoning Taln The Honorblades don't go to Braize, so 9 Unmade stick around on Roshar Taln binds the Everstorm (10th Unmade and perhaps Odium's Perpendicularity) to BraizeFall of Tanavast and Unity of Dalinar The weakened Tanavast is baited by the suffering of Taln to go to Braize and try to bind the Unmade himself Odium kills Tanavast, and like Leras on Scadrial, this greatly weakens Honor Like on Scadrial the Cognitive Shadow of Tanavast can stick around carrying the shard Odium imprisons the weakened Shadow of Honor on Braize - it's a prison with special rules and those rules can be used to keep Shadow-Tanavast stuck up there Dalinar summoning the perpendicularity may have allowed Shadow-Tanavast to return to Roshar unless Odium rushed back to Braize to act as the jailor So while Honor is splintered and dead, the cognitive shadow still exists on Braize. Odium does not want the shadow to "die". When the cognitive shadow of Leras died by investing all remaining power into Vin, the resulting Shard-Vessel combination was much more powerful. A vessel cannot simply transition to the Spiritual Realm on death. Rayse/Odium baited Tanavast/Honor to Braize and killed him there. It's not Odium who is jailed on Braize - it's Honor. What does Odium want? He hates everything and wants to be hated. He wants to splinter all other shards. So he's probably going for Cultivation. How to bait out Cultivation, the shard that doesn't invest permanently much? Salt the earth. Desolation. Where nothing grows. He needs to get rid off the Stormfather and Dalinar as those two can transport Tanavast off Braize. 1
Karger he/him Posted June 10, 2020 Posted June 10, 2020 10 minutes ago, Golstar said: Odium lead humans against Singers on Roshar. Quote Hoidonalsium What was the order of the Shards coming to Roshar and changing allegiances? Did humans come with Odium? Brandon Sanderson So... you're talking about on Roshar specifically? So, Odium had visited Roshar. The humans gave him more of an ear... The Dawnsingers would have considered him the god of the people who had come, but-- I mean, it wasn't like they necessarily brought him. He was capable of getting around before that. I mean, he did kinda come along with them, he was instrumental in what happened there. Hoidonalsium Okay, but he was separate, and after Honor and Cultivation had really settled there? Brandon Sanderson Yes, he was after Honor and Cultivation had settled. Oathbringer Glasgow signing (Dec. 2, 2017) 12 minutes ago, Golstar said: Honor selects 10 Odium-invested humans, names them Heralds and make them bond to Braize somehow Also we have limited information on what was going on in Roshar during those days. We also don't know much about how the war started or how the oathpact works. 12 minutes ago, Golstar said: Heralds are reborn on Braize in the Everstorm The everstorm is a new thing. 13 minutes ago, Golstar said: Odium isn't on Braize, but the Fused are, and they torture the Heralds until one breaks and the Everstorm returns to Roshar Odium is shackled to Braize by the combined powers of Honor and Cultivation. He is also sort of omnipresent. 14 minutes ago, Golstar said: Each Honorblade binds an Unmade to Braize There are only nine unmade and 10 honorblades. Quote XS-Terrain Also, does each of the Unmade have a corresponding order of the Knights Radiant? Brandon Sanderson Eh... Kind of. XS-Terrain Ok. So there are nine Unmade right, so which one is left out? Brandon Sanderson Bondsmith. But it's not as one to one, there's some fuzziness in there. Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017) 15 minutes ago, Golstar said: After many Desolations investing in increasing number of Spren and Bonds, he's so weak that he fails to stop the Heralds from abandoning Taln That was a choice. The Heralds are people with limited capabilities and free will. They chose to tap out. 16 minutes ago, Golstar said: Taln binds the Everstorm (10th Unmade and perhaps Odium's Perpendicularity) to Braize There are only nine unmade. 17 minutes ago, Golstar said: Odium imprisons the weakened Shadow of Honor on Braize - it's a prison with special rules and those rules can be used to keep Shadow-Tanavast stuck up there Honor's CS is the stormfather. The one left behind. The memory. 1
The Ryshadium Posted June 10, 2020 Posted June 10, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Karger said: Honor's CS is the stormfather. The one left behind. The memory. Isn't it more like Tanavast's CS became one with the Stormfather, who already existed before in a different form? Edited June 10, 2020 by The Ryshadium
Karger he/him Posted June 10, 2020 Posted June 10, 2020 8 minutes ago, The Ryshadium said: Isn't it more like Tanavast's CS became one with the Stormfather, who already existed before in a different form? Yeah something like that I was simplifying. Great name BTW. 1
Golstar Posted June 11, 2020 Author Posted June 11, 2020 (edited) 17 hours ago, Karger said: Honor's CS is the stormfather. The one left behind. The memory. I think that's intentional misdirection - we're never told this directly. We're told the Stormfather is a sliver, a splinter, a memory. This is all true. We know that Honor "altered" the Stormfather shortly before the Recreance (OB 113). We know the Stormfather is *a* cognitive shadow. But a Cognitive Shadow can mean many things - a Spren or the "soul" of an object. The Vessel Tanavast has a Cognitive Shadow - like Leras had. This cannot be the same thing as the Stormfather - they've existed at the same time. Cognitive Shadows of people look like the people themselves. Secret History of Mistborn has a lot of details on how Cognitive Shadows, Shards and Vessels work. The whole Preservation vs Ruin imbalance is caused by a Vessel which is dead in the Physical Realm, but still exists in the Cognitive Realm. When a vessel dies, the shard seeks a new Vessel. I think this would go for even a splintered shard. Keeping the Cognitive Shadow alive, like Ati did with Leras, is an excellent way to stay on top. When Leras died, the scales tipped immediately. Odium is crafty. I think he's tricked Tanavast into allowing himself to be killed, but has kept the Cognitive Shadow alive. If Honor had been fully killed, his Shard could seek a new Vessel. Odium doesn't want it. I would not be surprised if the Cognitive Shadow of Tanavast is somehow linked to the Everstorm. If we then speculate that Honor splintered himself and invested the Stormfather with a sliver of his power, the previous investiture held by Honor is now found as a weakened remnant in Tanavast's CS and in the Stormfather. Dalinar opens Honor's Perpendicularity at the Battle of Thaylen City. If the Everstorm contains Honor's Cognitive Shadow, then this could explain how and why this happened at this time and place. Honor's Investiture was concentrated in one place - Everstorm, Stormfather, a couple Heralds and tons of Spren and Radiants. This allowed the Perpendicularity to be opened - and the weakening caused by Cognitive Shadow of Tanavast not having a presence in the Physical Realm is counter-acted. Essentially the Bondsmith acts as an anchor to replace missing Physical form of the Vessel. Odium fears that this would allow Dalinar to ascend - and we know from Mistborn that a Shard is the most dangerous immediately after Ascension, before Intent starts making the Vessel inflexible. Dalinar is a fierce and crafty enemy. Odium doesn't risk destruction, but perhaps he could risk some kind of bonding or imprisonment. So he runs away. I'm not sure the splintering of Honor has been done to the degree of the other splintered shards - and that what Odium wants is to splinter Honor further or somehow imprison the Cognitive Shadow of Tanavast while the splinters (spren) fight it out in eternal war. Odium is not Ruin. He is not a simple destructive force. He's really good at splintering and defeating other shards. I think this is not via brute force, but through manipulation and turning them against themselves.He makes them expend themselves to fight him. Fight him and he wins. He wants to be fought. I may be wrong on my theory, but I think we'll see some kind of twist regarding the nature of Honor's splintering and Tanavast's death. It's not simply the shattered memories of Honor being left to be picked up by the heroes and wielded as weapons in an unequal fight with Odium. Rayse is a cunning and malicious individual - I think he has a weakness related to how Tanavast died. My best guess is that he's using Honor's own power to fuel the war, somehow using the switcheroo to appropriate the power - similar to how Hemalurgy can be used to take over the investiture of other shards. Hemalurgy deals with stealing the Spirit Web. Perhaps Voidbinding deals with corrupting the Cognitive Shadow somehow - allowing proxy access to the investiture. What if the Unmade (being Odium splinters) are using voidbinding to corrupt Honor splinters? And what if the Everstorm is a voidbound Cognitive Shadow of Tanavast. Red means "non-native" shardic investiture. Red lightning and red eyes - voidbound Spren and Cognitive Shadows. Sja-Anat is the real kicker here. When we learn more about how this Unmade has gained free will of sorts, I think we will understand Odium's investiture. I think this is also why the Ghostbloods want her. She's key to understanding a threat to more than just Roshar. Edited June 11, 2020 by Golstar 1
Karger he/him Posted June 11, 2020 Posted June 11, 2020 10 minutes ago, Golstar said: I think that's intentional misdirection - we're never told this directly. We're told the Stormfather is a sliver, a splinter, a memory. This is all true. We know that Honor "altered" the Stormfather shortly before the Recreance (OB 113). We know the Stormfather is *a* cognitive shadow. But a Cognitive Shadow can mean many things - a Spren or the "soul" of an object. The Vessel Tanavast has a Cognitive Shadow - like Leras had. This cannot be the same thing as the Stormfather - they've existed at the same time. Cognitive Shadows of people look like the people themselves. Secret History of Mistborn has a lot of details on how Cognitive Shadows, Shards and Vessels work. The whole Preservation vs Ruin imbalance is caused by a Vessel which is dead in the Physical Realm, but still exists in the Cognitive Realm. Quote Questioner I was wondering if there was a connection between when we meet Preservation in Secret History, and the way he is, and the Stormfather. Like, is he dead yet, in Secret History? Brandon Sanderson There is a similarity, but-- Dying for a Shard takes a long time, in a lot of cases. So, it's similar. But the Stormfather is something different, *inaudible* remnants left over after the god died. Questioner So is he dead? Brandon Sanderson Honor is dead, yes. But, at the same time, the Stormfather is kind of his Cognitive Shadow. So-- what does "dead" mean? Oathbringer Houston signing (Nov. 18, 2017) Quote Questioner Is Honor still alive? Brandon Sanderson Honor? Honor's dead. Questioner What about Tanavast? Brandon Sanderson So, um, you can assume that there is no funny business going on there. Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017) 10 minutes ago, Golstar said: When a vessel dies, the shard seeks a new Vessel. The Dor. 11 minutes ago, Golstar said: Dalinar opens Honor's Perpendicularity at the Battle of Thaylen City. If the Everstorm contains Honor's Cognitive Shadow, then this could explain how and why this happened at this time and place. Honor's Investiture was concentrated in one place - Everstorm, Stormfather, a couple Heralds and tons of Spren and Radiants. This allowed the Perpendicularity to be opened - and the weakening caused by Cognitive Shadow of Tanavast not having a presence in the Physical Realm is counter-acted. Essentially the Bondsmith acts as an anchor to replace missing Physical form of the Vessel. Or it is just the oath drawing together the different pieces of Honor. Kaladin actually does a lessor version of this. 1
Golstar Posted June 11, 2020 Author Posted June 11, 2020 6 minutes ago, Karger said: Or it is just the oath drawing together the different pieces of Honor. Kaladin actually does a lessor version of this. It's possible. But we are due some surprising twists - and I think "dead" being not quite what we think would be in line with things we've seen before. An alternative theory is that Tanavast splintered pretty much *all* his remaining power into the Stormfather and then went to fight Odium with only enough investiture to stay alive. That would be incredibly dumb, but also very Honorable. Either way Odium retreating when the Perpendicularity appears has to mean something. Odium is not a coward. All Perpendicularities require the presence of massive concentrations of investiture. I think the Everstorm is key here, regardless of the rest of my theory - it would make sense if was yet another splinter of Honor. The Stormfather also says "The Everstorm. It is a new thing, but old of design.", "They call for a storm. My opposite. Deadly." Come to think of it - could the Everstorm be the Sibling? The Spren responsible for recycling Cognitive Shadows (ie Fused and Heralds)? If Nohadon was bound to the Everstorm/Sibling, this would make sense of Odium saying "I thought we killed you?" when the perpendicularity appears. Perhaps he sees Nohadon hanging around in the Cognitive Realm hitching a ride on the Everstorm. If the Everstorm is a Spren which is invested with Odium's power - like how the Stormfather has Honor's power - it would make sense that Odium freaks out when he senses that he's not fully in charge of it. From Mistborn we know that investiture can be hijacked. Honor hijacking Odium's investiture via a Bondsmith would be funny. That would probably also make Odium really, really hate Bondsmiths, and those who bond Sibling in particular.
Karger he/him Posted June 11, 2020 Posted June 11, 2020 1 minute ago, Golstar said: and I think "dead" being not quite what we think would be in line with things we've seen before I am not really sure where you could go with this. This line 30 minutes ago, Karger said: So, um, you can assume that there is no funny business going on there. Seems pretty explicit. 2 minutes ago, Golstar said: Either way Odium retreating when the Perpendicularity appears has to mean something Agreed. 3 minutes ago, Golstar said: it would make sense if was yet another splinter of Honor. The Stormfather also says "The Everstorm. It is a new thing, but old of design.", "They call for a storm. My opposite. Deadly." It is Odium's MO to co-opt or corrupt another shard's magic system. Some of Honor's power being left over in the storm is possible. 4 minutes ago, Golstar said: Come to think of it - could the Everstorm be the Sibling? Don't think so. The Stormfather claims that the Sibling is sleeping and the everstorm is pretty active. 1
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