Shards Projecting into the Physical Realm

[Mojonero]

One theme of the Cosmere is that Shards, while holding enough power to put planets together, are bound by rules in such a way that lesser feats are forbidden. A Shard cannot simply speak into a person's mind. Ruin, a Shard that embodies decay, cannot simply make Scadrial wilt in a blink, even with no mind controlling Preservation. Preservation cannot simply stop fueling an allomancer. No Shard can stop gravity. The list goes on.

They can do these things if they follow the appropiate constraints, however. Ruin can introduce thoughts into someone, but only if there is an opening through an hemalurgic spike or a broken mind. He could have destroyed Scadrial if part of its power had not been sequestered into atium. Preservation can't prevent an allomancer from drawing power from metal, but it can stop the mists from fueling someone tainted by Ruin. Gravity, as other natural laws, cannot be removed even by a Shard, but they can actively expend power in order to work against gravity so that the net effect is zero.

While I can't come up with better examples for this premise, we have book references and wobs relating to the rules Shards must follow. From the Almighty in Way of Kings:

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You might be able to get him to choose a champion. He is bound by some rules. All of us are.

From the Stormfather in Oathbringer:

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“You cannot break oaths,” Dalinar said, fingers still resting on the Honorblade. “Right?” 
I cannot.
“What of the thing we fight? Odium, the origin of the Voidbringers and their spren. Can he break oaths?” 
No, the Stormfather said. He is far greater than I, but the power of ancient Adonalsium permeates him. And controls him. Odium is a force like pressure, gravitation, or the movement of time. These things cannot break their own rules. Nor can he.

And this Wob clarifying that Shards are still bound by the natural laws:

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CaptainRyan

*written* Could a Shard refuse to "fuel" a magic user? E.g. Could Preservation have refused to "fuel" Ham's pewter? (Please, for the question, assume Preservation is whole and undamaged.)

Brandon Sanderson

*written* No, but he could have interfered.

*spoken* So, the answer is "no, he couldn't." Like, if you just had the Allomancy going, like--

CaptainRyan

They can't shut you off?

Brandon Sanderson

They can't shut you off, but they can interfere with you using it. They could do other things. But, like, the magic, it would be like saying, "I refuse to let gravity work on this person."

CaptainRyan

But couldn't a Shard-- Technically, they can control forces--

Brandon Sanderson

No, they can't, but they can interfere with it, does that make sense? ...Gravity is not gone, but this person is being interfered with and their relationship to these sorts of things.

CaptainRyan

Kind of like if I throw your pen in the air, gravity's not gone, but I've interfered with something.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, exactly. And you can, like, twist the gravity, so it's pointing... But the laws of natures, burning is, like, a law of nature, and things like that. And they can circumvent, and they can twist, and they can bend, but the laws of nature are still the laws of nature.

CaptainRyan

They can't just cut it off?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

With this in mind, my question is: can Shards project themselves in the Physical Realm on demand, or do certain constraints need to be met?

I tried to think about the moments when a Shard has shown themselves in the PR, and that I can recall they have always followed these rules: 

1. The location they project themselves into has to be particularly Invested/Connected with their own power.
2. When they are projecting themselves, every individual has the same view of the projection. That is, they can't show a different view of themselves to different individuals at the same time. If both A and B can see C, they both see the same thing.
3. IF they choose not to be seen by everyone, they can be seen only by individuals they have a Connection to, but they can't selectively not show themselves to a subset of those.

The third rule is not a hard one. If it is followed, I believe the projection is less tangible than otherwise - it becomes just a vision, with no direct power over the PR at all.

All of this is perhaps biased because the examples I draw are from Stormlight and Mistborn, in which all Shards are in different states of being bound/restrained, but it seems to me this would be a rational limitation on the way Shards can expose themselves in the PR.

From Era 1, the projections we have seen are of Ruin and Preservation. Because of the nature of the planet, both P&R immediately comply with (1). Ruin has only shown himself to people with hemalurgic spikes in them (3). As seen in Chapter 58 of HoA, both Quellion and Spook see Ruin as Kelsier, and both have the same experience of him (2): 

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Spook turned away from the burning city as something caught his attention. Quellion was reaching out with his good arm, reaching toward … 
Toward Kelsier. 
“Please,” Quellion whispered. It seemed as if he could see the Survivor, though nobody else around them could. “My lord Kelsier, why have you forsaken me?”

Similarly, when Leras shows himself as the mistspirit, both Elend and Vin see the same thing as it slashes Elend. I think Leras' apparitions are a case of a general projection not satisfying (3): anyone at all could have seen it, that is why the mistspirit itself can affect the PR directly (draw in the ash, stab Elend), like a (lowercase) avatar.

From Era 2, in Chapter 7 of Shadows of Self, Harmony can only be seen by Wax once he puts his hemalurgic earring in (3), not before, not after. No other observer so I can't say anything about (2).

In Stormlight, we see a Shard in the Physical when Dalinar visits the Old Magic. I think Cultivation's body in the Valley is much like the mistspirit, fully physical not satisfying rule (3). It still happens in the Valley of all places, Cultivation's domain so to speak, satisfying (1), and with no other observer besides the Nightwatcher so I can't say anything about (2). In any case, no rules are explicitly broken.

Then, we have Odium projecting himself at Thaylenah. He only shows himself under the Everstorm, because of rule (1). Venli, Amaram, Dalinar and the Fused all see the Odium say/do the same things (2). But not everyone sees Odium here, only those with some Connection to him (3), as neither Szeth nor Navani can see him. The Fused see him because they are of him, Dalinar because Odium has been influencing him through the Thrill for decades, Amaram because he made a pact with him.

Finally, the other appareance of a Shard that I can think of is the Sand God in WS3, which happens over sand invested by Autonomy (1), and nothing else can be said about the rest of the rules.

I would like to see additional thoughts to this idea, because I have not looked much into the particular examples and am wondering if there is an instance where these rules are not met. Particularly because I assume Avatars would be bound by them as well, so this could potentially help rule out certain people being Avatars if they don't meet this criterion.

Edited April 4, 2020 by Mojonero

[Honorless he/him]

It's also noticeable in how Preservation and Ruin apparently created life on Scadrial but couldn't create a  new body for Kelsier without Hemalurgy: it's easier to make Investiture flow pre-made paths than create things ex-nihilo, plus I think it's difficult, in general, to directly affect sapient beings

[Dancer]

16 hours ago, Dreamer said:

It's also noticeable in how Preservation and Ruin apparently created life on Scadrial but couldn't create a  new body for Kelsier without Hemalurgy: it's easier to make Investiture flow pre-made paths than create things ex-nihilo, plus I think it's difficult, in general, to directly affect sapient beings

I'm sure Harmony if he wanted to could create a new body for Kelsier. The Heralds get new bodies every time they return. There is no reason that shouldn't apply to Kelsier. It's just that at the end of SH Harmony didn't want to do this. He believes that it is better for Scadrial if Kelsier stays dead. 

[Honorless he/him]

1 hour ago, Dancer said:

I'm sure Harmony if he wanted to could create a new body for Kelsier. The Heralds get new bodies every time they return. There is no reason that shouldn't apply to Kelsier. It's just that at the end of SH Harmony didn't want to do this. He believes that it is better for Scadrial if Kelsier stays dead. 

Why would he believe that? Due to the possible theological crisis? 

[Staenbridge]

52 minutes ago, Dreamer said:

Why would he believe that? Due to the possible theological crisis? 

Part of it is probably just that Kelsier seems to provoke Discord in everything he does — think about it; in half of a lifetime he managed to engineer the downfall of an empire that lasted a thousand years, and helped cause the death of two Shards, and held the Shard of Preservation for a little while, and erected a cult-of-faith–turn–religion dedicated to him and Vin, and got in a fight with Hoid.

Maaaaybe Harmony doesn't want to give Kelsier more opportunities to drive a tank through his neat and organised Elendel garden. Especially given that he's still happily creating religions down in the Scadrian South, so being a Cognitive Shadow is not exactly stopping him from acting. 

Edited April 5, 2020 by Staenbridge

[Wandering Investor]

8 hours ago, Dreamer said:

Why would he believe that? Due to the possible theological crisis? 

Also keep in mind that part of Harmony is Ruin. He still wants things to come to an end in their own time, and Kelsier's time was past due. Without a particularly good reason, such as Wax being one of his go to tools or Eland and Vin who he was very attached to, I suspect Harmony would be against resurrection in general.

[Honorless he/him]

I very much doubt that the Intents were already affecting him like that, so soon after picking up the powers, given what we see with Kelsier and Vin, especially the latter, whose not yet being warped by the power was part of Preservation's plan

Edited April 6, 2020 by Dreamer

[ftl]

The hard part, I think, isn't creating a new body - it's attaching the Cognitive Shadow to the physical body. My guess is that that is the reason for the hemalurgic spike in Kelsier's new body.

[Honorless he/him]

4 hours ago, ftl said:

The hard part, I think, isn't creating a new body - it's attaching the Cognitive Shadow to the physical body. My guess is that that is the reason for the hemalurgic spike in Kelsier's new body.

That's what I thought too

[Dancer]

20 hours ago, Dreamer said:

Why would he believe that? Due to the possible theological crisis? 

Quote

"What do you think, Saze?" Kelsier asked, staring out over the world. "Is there a way for me to get out of this, and live again in the Physical Realm?" Sazed hesitated. "No. I do not think so." He patted Kelsier on the shoulder, then vanished.

Huh, Kelsier thought. He holds the powers of creation in twain, a god among gods. And he's still a terrible liar.

pg 360 Arcanum Unbounded Secret History Gollancz Publishing 2017.

From this exchange it can be implied that Harmony could bring Kelsier back if he wanted to. He just didn't. I have no idea as to why. I assume because Kelsier is killing machine with very little remorse that just orchestrated the fall of an empire that lasted 1000 years. Now top that off with him being for all intents and purposes immortal. If I were god that is not something I would casually throw back into the world without careful consideration. 

Edited April 6, 2020 by Dancer

[Honorless he/him]

12 minutes ago, Dancer said:

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"What do you think, Saze?" Kelsier asked, staring out over the world. "Is there a way for me to get out of this, and live again in the Physical Realm?" Sazed hesitated. "No. I do not think so." He patted Kelsier on the shoulder, then vanished.

Huh, Kelsier thought. He holds the powers of creation in twain, a god among gods. And he's still a terrible liar.

pg 360 Arcanum Unbounded Secret History Gollancz Publishing 2017.

From this exchange it can be implied that Harmony could bring Kelsier back if he wanted to. He just didn't. 

The implication is a bit wider than that. Kelsier asked if there was a way, Sazed lied, right after redesigning the planet. Kelsier couldn't do it either, even while he could hold back the seas and volcanoes.

I think there are some limitations to a Shard when in comes to using their power on a sapient being that depends on their Investiture system, level of Investiture permeation and Intent

This WoB seem to support that idea:

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RandyD

Can a Shard just--like, say someone is using their magic system--can they stop the power from them being able to use it?

Brandon Sanderson

No, that's a bit like stopping the laws of physics. So, while they can circumvent laws of physics and things like that, but if you wanted to stop someone from using magic, smiting them would be the efficient way of making that happen, if you are capable of it in the system.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

Even this one, reading between the lines:

Quote

RandyD

Can a Shard just smite someone? Like, "Boom, you're dead," and they die?

Brandon Sanderson

So, Shards can do this, depending on where they are. For instance, Odium can't, but Endowment could.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

 

Edited April 6, 2020 by Dreamer

[Dancer]

48 minutes ago, Dreamer said:

The implication is a bit wider than that. Kelsier asked if there was a way, Sazed lied, right after redesigning the planet. Kelsier couldn't do it either, even while he could hold back the seas and volcanoes.

 

There was never a time in SH when Kelsier held the power of Preservation that he tried to come back to the PR as a living being. His attention was entirely taken up with defeating Ruin and nothing else.  

While yes there are rules that even Shards must follow there is nothing in that WoB that suggest that bringing Kelsier back is outside of Harmonies power. The surge of progression allows for bringing back the dead in very much the way that Kelsier wants (mines the creation of a body). Everything that the humans can do with a Surge a Shard should be capable of I should think. This issue is compounded with the fact that Ruin a Preservation strait up created all life on Scadrial. If they can literally create life then bringing a CS back into the PR should be no problem. Again Harmony just doesn't want to.   

 

Edited April 6, 2020 by Dancer

[Honorless he/him]

16 minutes ago, Dancer said:

There was never a time in SH when Kelsier held the power of Preservation that he tried to come back to the PR as a living being. His attention was entirely taken up with defeating Ruin and nothing else.  

While yes there are rules that even Shards must follow there is nothing in that WoB that suggest that bringing Kelsier back is outside of Harmonies power. The surge of progression allows for bringing back the dead in very much the way that Kelsier wants (mines the creation of a body). Everything that the humans can do with a Surge a Shard should be capable of I should think. This issue is compounded with the fact that Ruin a Preservation strait up created all life on Scadrial. If they can literally create life then bringing a CS back into the PR should be no problem. Again Harmony just doesn't want to.   

I don't know about that, on one hand there are the Heralds who are Cognitive Shadows who can apparently recreate their bodies, on the other hand there are the Fused who need to take over someone, plus what about the Koloss? The Mistwraiths and the Kandra? What's preventing Harmony from turning them human or making them not dependant on Hemalurgy to reproduce? 

[Dancer]

57 minutes ago, Dreamer said:

I don't know about that, on one hand there are the Heralds who are Cognitive Shadows who can apparently recreate their bodies, on the other hand there are the Fused who need to take over someone, plus what about the Koloss? The Mistwraiths and the Kandra? What's preventing Harmony from turning them human or making them not dependant on Hemalurgy to reproduce? 

With the Koloss Harmony thought it was genocide to turn them all back into humans since they had their own semi society already. He did make the Koloss be able to reproduce. The beings known as Koloss blooded are the offspring of two Koloss. They become full Koloss when the accept their spikes. Harmony could make it so the Kundra can breed but he purposely chose not to? again for unknown reasons. 

 

Mason Wheeler

If Harmony could make it so that koloss can reproduce, why is it he did not do the same thing for the kandra?

Brandon Sanderson

*long pause* I'm not sure how to answer this without straying in directions I don't want to go. It was a conscious choice, I'll tell you that.

 

#harmony #kandra #rafo-plus

[Honorless he/him]

1 hour ago, Dancer said:

With the Koloss Harmony thought it was genocide to turn them all back into humans since they had their own semi society already. He did make the Koloss be able to reproduce. The beings known as Koloss blooded are the offspring of two Koloss. They become full Koloss when the accept their spikes. Harmony could make it so the Kundra can breed but he purposely chose not to? again for unknown reasons. 

Quote

Mason Wheeler

If Harmony could make it so that koloss can reproduce, why is it he did not do the same thing for the kandra?

Brandon Sanderson

*long pause* I'm not sure how to answer this without straying in directions I don't want to go. It was a conscious choice, I'll tell you that.

 

That makes sense

Quote

There was never a time in SH when Kelsier held the power of Preservation that he tried to come back to the PR as a living being. His attention was entirely taken up with defeating Ruin and nothing else.  

While yes there are rules that even Shards must follow there is nothing in that WoB that suggest that bringing Kelsier back is outside of Harmonies power. The surge of progression allows for bringing back the dead in very much the way that Kelsier wants (mines the creation of a body). Everything that the humans can do with a Surge a Shard should be capable of I should think. This issue is compounded with the fact that Ruin a Preservation strait up created all life on Scadrial. If they can literally create life then bringing a CS back into the PR should be no problem. Again Harmony just doesn't want to.

Ruin said that Kelsier couldn't hold Preservation quite right since he was lacking a connection to the Physical Realm. Was Ruin lying or exaggerating? 

[Dancer]

27 minutes ago, Dreamer said:

That makes sense

Ruin said that Kelsier couldn't hold Preservation quite right since he was lacking a connection to the Physical Realm. Was Ruin lying or exaggerating? 

We can only assume that Ruin was telling the truth here. But at this point Ati was completely consumed by the Shard so take what he says with a pinch of salt. Kelsier also had an enormous connection to Ruin, much larger then his connection to Preservation. This did not help him when he was holding Preservation. It meant that everything he tried to do the power would reject without being forced. 

Edited April 6, 2020 by Dancer