At which point becomes mass awareness of and mass access to the Cognitive Realm inevitable?

[Pathfinder]

21 minutes ago, DiePie said:

Maybe your right. I don't see how fabrials could be used to manufacture items (such as clothing, or furniture etc.) which is why I don't think that fabrials could completely replace an industrial revolution. Though if what your saying is true, and fabrials can grow enough food for the entire populace of Roshar, then we may not need technology to produce those items anyways (magical or otherwise), as being able to move 90% of the population to something other than food production could create the economic revolution that would be required.

Though I guess we just have to see what fabrials can or can't do in the future.

Conjoined fabrials. attracting and repelling fabrials. Infuse the machine with stormlight. Manipulate the metal housing to increase or decrease speed (like how we see doing so increases or decreases heat regarding a heating fabrial). That raises and lowers the needle of a sewing machine. Attached a conjoined fabrial to that needle, and even if they can only split the gemstone in half, you have still doubled production. If they find a way to further divide a conjoined fabrial, you exponentially increase production. Soulcasters could produce the resources at the location of production reducing the need of supply lines and labor harvesting. Soulcast stacks upon stacks of cloth for sewing right at the factory. Transportation (the surge) to send out the finished product across the globe. Use the same means of production to carve fabrial housings or vehicles, then soulcast them into the materials needed, such as metal, and etc. If anything i think fabrials would speed the revolution far more than our own.

Edited February 27, 2020 by Pathfinder

[DiePie]

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

Conjoined fabrials. attracting and repelling fabrials. Infuse the machine with stormlight. Manipulate the metal housing to increase or decrease speed (like how we see doing so increases or decreases heat regarding a heating fabrial). That raises and lowers the needle of a sewing machine. Attached a conjoined fabrial to that needle, and even if they can only split the gemstone in half, you have still doubled production. If they find a way to further divide a conjoined fabrial, you exponentially increase production. Soulcasters could produce the resources at the location of production reducing the need of supply lines and labor harvesting. Soulcast stacks upon stacks of cloth for sewing right at the factory. Transportation to send out the finished product across the globe. Use the same means of production to carve fabrial housings or vehicles, then soulcast them into the materials needed, such as metal, and etc. If anything i think fabrials would speed the revolution far more than our own.

your probably right, I've never been to creative so there probably is some way to create machines

[Karger he/him]

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

So I googled it out of curiosity and apparently "gemology" really is a thing lol. It is a geoscience and is a branch of mineralogy. It is a science dealing with natural and artificial gemstone materials. 

Also googled... Cool!

47 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

accomplish for Roshar, the same thing that factories and the steam engine did on Earth.

They could eventually they just are not yet.  These things take time.  Remember the steam engine itself existed in the early 18th century but it did not kick off the industrial revolution until the mid 19th.

19 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

That raises and lowers the needle of a sewing machine

That seems like a lot of work.  Just mechanical power seems way way simpler.

Edited February 27, 2020 by Karger

[Pathfinder]

35 minutes ago, Karger said:

Also googled... Cool!

They could eventually they just are not yet.  These things take time.  Remember the steam engine itself existed in the early 18th century but it did not kick off the industrial revolution until the mid 19th.

The industrial revolution is "the transition to new manufacturing processes". I take that to mean it is a process over time. For myself, that is what I am referring to regarding them currently undergoing an industrial revolution. From what I understand of the definition, it is not only after they have all these processes perfected and standardized. It is the process by which the manufacturing processes are gradually shifted. Which I believe is applicable to Roshar. 

Quote

That seems like a lot of work.  Just mechanical power seems way way simpler.

They already have a lot of the science down in the scenes we see with Navani, as well as in Kharbranth. Not sure why something that is flammable and explosive would be simpler than fabrials. 

 

edit: remember the southern scadrians developed aircraft that instead of trying to develop propulsion and aeronautics in the vein of airplanes, focused instead on airships due to being able to lighten the materials and using steel pushes to run rotors. Why would the same principles applied via fabrials be problematic?

Edited February 27, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

They already have a lot of the science down in the scenes we see with Navani, as well as in Kharbranth. Not sure why something that is flammable and explosive would be simpler than fabrials. 

The first sowing machines used mussel power. 

2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

From what I understand of the definition, it is not only after they have all these processes perfected and standardized. It is the process by which the manufacturing processes are gradually shifted. Which I believe is applicable to Roshar. 

They don't need to be perfected but until the transition is noticeable to the average citizen I am not sure it means much.

[Pathfinder]

8 minutes ago, Karger said:

The first sowing machines used mussel power. 

They don't need to be perfected but until the transition is noticeable to the average citizen I am not sure it means much.

I guess where I get confused is I feel like you are saying it all has to happen immediately to count. The original post used a whole lot of "will happen", "going to". Roshar has access to a myriad of ways to get to the cognitive realm. They would have access to spren that have their own entire mercantile system involving trade with other worlds. They will have access to the heralds. I feel the fabrials we have seen tested out is only the tip of the iceberg to come, and I also feel the back description of Rhythm of War supports this. 

[Karger he/him]

8 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I guess where I get confused is I feel like you are saying it all has to happen immediately to count. The original post used a whole lot of "will happen", "going to". Roshar has access to a myriad of ways to get to the cognitive realm. They would have access to spren that have their own entire mercantile system involving trade with other worlds. They will have access to the heralds. I feel the fabrials we have seen tested out is only the tip of the iceberg to come, and I also feel the back description of Rhythm of War supports this. 

That will eventually happen in a few hundred years sure(baring the desolation going super wrong or a similar disaster).  I am just pointing out potential flaws in examples because that is what I see.

Edited February 27, 2020 by Karger

[Pathfinder]

3 minutes ago, Karger said:

What will eventually happen in a few hundred years sure(baring the desolation going super wrong or a similar disaster).  I am just pointing out potential flaws in examples because that is what I see.

Then can I ask what you believe the back of Rhythm of War is referring to? Genuinely curious.

[Karger he/him]

Just now, Pathfinder said:

Then can I ask what you believe the back of Rhythm of War is referring to? Genuinely curious.

They are going to get more powerful fabrials but they will only be available to governments or the exceptionally wealthy.  Other fabrails might get their start but a I doubt we will see a full magictec society with magical public transport or manufactured goods any time soon.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

22 minutes ago, Karger said:

They are going to get more powerful fabrials but they will only be available to governments or the exceptionally wealthy.  Other fabrails might get their start but a I doubt we will see a full magictec society with magical public transport or manufactured goods any time soon.

That is absolutely correct. The obstacles Roshar is facing are economic, miitary and ideological, not technical.

The planet is a lot poorer than Scadrial and heading for an economic breakdown. Also a lot of people are going to die in the war. After and if that is overcome, they will have to face the issue that a religion that sets wages and forbids half the people from learning to read and write is quite likely incompatible with an industrial revolution.

Edited February 27, 2020 by Oltux72
typo

[Karger he/him]

2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That is absolutely correct. The obstacles Roshar is facing are economic, miitary and ideological, not technical.

Add in governmental in a lot of roshar but yeah that is a pretty good explanation.

Edited February 27, 2020 by Karger

[Pathfinder]

16 hours ago, Karger said:

They are going to get more powerful fabrials but they will only be available to governments or the exceptionally wealthy.  Other fabrails might get their start but a I doubt we will see a full magictec society with magical public transport or manufactured goods any time soon.

 

16 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

That is absolutely correct. The obstacles Roshar is facing are economic, miitary and ideological, not technical.

The planet is a lot poorer than Scadrial and heading for an economic breakdown. Also a lot of people are going to die in the war. After and if that is overcome, they will have to face the issue that a religion that sets wages and forbids half the people from learning to read and write is quite likely incompatible with an industrial revolution.

 

15 hours ago, Karger said:

Add in governmental in a lot of roshar but yeah that is a pretty good explanation.

You both keep saying "100s of years" regarding factories, but that confuses me, because Roshar already has those. It could be said that Sebarial is an outlier, but keep in mind:

1. He isn't hiding this fact anymore

2. The technology and ability already exists (Shallan didn't marvel at the concept, she marveled that he did it without the others realizing it. So the factories are not revolutionary. They are an existing technology).

3. He is currently in Dalinar's inner circle. He will be affecting policy.

4. Fen is right up there with him, and thinks the same way. Thaylenah is a merchant culture. They are a coalition now

 

(it is a long scene so I highlighted what I feel is pertinent)

Words of Radiance page 459

She turned her attention out the window, and soon decided that this place was a warcamp in name only. The streets were straighter than you might have in a city that had grown naturally, but Shallan saw far more civilians than she did soldiers. They passed taverns, open markets, shops, and tall buildings that surely could hold a dozen different families. People crowded many of the streets. The place wasn’t as varied and vibrant as Kharbranth had been, but the buildings were of solid wood and stone, constructed up against one another to share support.

“Rounded roofs,” Shallan said.

“My engineers say they repel the winds better,” Sebarial said proudly. “Also, buildings with rounded corners and sides.”

“So many people!”

“Almost all permanent residents. I have the most complete force of tailors, artisans, and cooks in the camps. Already, I’ve set up twelve manufactories—textiles, shoes, ceramics, several mills. I control the glassblowers as well.”

Shallan turned back toward him. That pride in his voice didn’t at all match what Jasnah had written of the man. Of course, most of her notes and knowledge of the highprinces came from infrequent visits to the Shattered Plains, and none had been recent.

“From what I’ve heard,” Shallan said, “your forces are among the least successful in the war against the Parshendi.”

Sebarial got a twinkle in his eyes. “The others hunt quick income from gemhearts, but what will they spend their money on? My textile mills will soon produce uniforms at a much cheaper price than they can be shipped in for, and my farmers will provide food far more varied than what is supplied through Soulcasting. I’m growing both lavis and tallew, not to mention my hog farms.”

“You sly eel,” Shallan said. “While the others fight a war, you’ve been building an economy.”

“I’ve had to be careful,” he confided, leaning in. “I didn’t want them to notice what I was doing at first.”

“Clever,” Shallan said. “But why are you telling me?”

“You’ll see it anyway, if you’re to act as one of my clerks. Besides, the secrecy doesn’t matter anymore. The manufactories are now producing, and my armies barely go on a single plateau run a month. I have to pay Dalinar’s fines for avoiding them and forcing him to send someone else, but it’s worth the cost. Anyway, the smarter highprinces have figured out what I’m up to. The others just think I’m a lazy fool.”

“And so you’re not a lazy fool?”

“Of course I am!” he exclaimed. “Fighting is too much work. Besides, soldiers die, and that makes me pay out to their families. It’s just useless all around.” He looked out the window. “I saw the secret three years back. Everyone was moving here, but nobody thought of the place as permanent—despite the value of those gemhearts, which ensured that Alethkar would always have a presence here. . . .” He smiled.

[Karger he/him]

21 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Already, I’ve set up twelve manufactories—textiles, shoes, ceramics, several mills. I control the glassblowers as well.”

Quote

Textile manufacturing is one of the oldest human activities. The oldest known textiles date back to about 5000 B.C. In order to make textiles, the first requirement is a source of fibre from which a yarn can be made, primarily by spinning. The yarn is processed by knitting or weaving to create cloth. The machine used for weaving is the loom. Cloth is finished by what are described as wet processes to become fabric. The fabric may be dyed, printed or decorated by embroidering with coloured yarns.

Quote

There is a long history of ceramic art in almost all developed cultures, and often ceramic objects are all the artistic evidence left from vanished cultures, like that of the Nok in Africa over 2,000 years ago. Cultures especially noted for ceramics include the Chinese, Cretan, Greek, Persian, Mayan, Japanese, and Korean cultures, as well as the modern Western cultures.

Quote

The earliest evidence of glassblowing comes from a collection of waste from a glass shop, including fragments of glass tubes, glass rods and tiny blown bottles, which was dumped in a mikvah, a ritual bath in the Jewish Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem, dated from 37 to 4 BC.^[8][12][18] Some of the glass tubes recovered are fire-closed at one end and are partially inflated by blowing through the open end while still hot to form a small bottle; thus they are considered as a rudimentary form of blowpipe.^[9]

Quote

In the 14th century windmills became popular in Europe; the total number of wind-powered mills is estimated to have been around 200,000 at the peak in 1850, which is modest compared to some 500,000 waterwheels.^[25] Windmills were applied in regions where there was too little water, where rivers freeze in winter and in flat lands where the flow of the river was too slow to provide the required power.^[25] With the coming of the industrial revolution, the importance of wind and water as primary industrial energy sources declined, and they were eventually replaced by steam (in steam mills) and internal combustion engines, although windmills continued to be built in large numbers until late in the nineteenth century. More recently, windmills have been preserved for their historic value, in some cases as static exhibits when the antique machinery is too fragile to put in motion, and in other cases as fully working mills.^[29]

None of those technologies are particularly old and we have no indication that they are being done on an industrial scale.  Since the purpose is to supply an army I think it much more likely that it is just small scale industrialization preformed communally at a standardized scale.  IE they are not using more advanced techniques just using the old ones in a more effective and standardized way.  There is also no indication that fabrialis are used used for any of this.

Edited February 28, 2020 by Karger

[Pathfinder]

10 minutes ago, Karger said:

None of those technologies are particularly old and we have no indication that they are being done on an industrial scale.  Since the purpose is to supply an army I think it much more likely that it is just small scale industrialization preformed communally at a standardized scale.  IE they are not using more advanced techniques just using the old ones in a more effective and standardized way.  There is also no indication that fabrialis are used used for any of this.

In a prior post you mentioned that they didn't know how to manufacture. That is why I am confused. In the book it states they do, on a city wide scale. I also mentioned that Shallan was not surprised at the process. She was surprised he was able to do it covertly. So it definitely is a global practice. You mentioned hand operated machines being an indication of industrial revolution beginning and that Roshar lacked it. But that is the manufactories mentioned in the book. So I still don't understand why that doesn't count. 

[Karger he/him]

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

In a prior post you mentioned that they didn't know how to manufacture. That is why I am confused. In the book it states they do, on a city wide scale. I also mentioned that Shallan was not surprised at the process. She was surprised he was able to do it covertly. So it definitely is a global practice. You mentioned hand operated machines being an indication of industrial revolution beginning and that Roshar lacked it. But that is the manufactories mentioned in the book. So I still don't understand why that doesn't count. 

Old forms of manufacturing like glassblowing have existed for thousands of years.  However I do not really consider it an industrial process.  Most people for most of human history could not afford any glass.  They do seem to have gotten standardization down and that is an important step for industrialization.  However no technological advancement is evident.  For example.  Sabarial makes uniforms.  I am only speculating here but I do not think he has cracked modern textile manufacturing methods.  What I do think he is doing is taking a bunch of spinning women(or men?  It takes two hands right?) having them all work together under one roof and standardizing both the cloth they use and the things they make.  Is that industrialization if they are doing the same things tech wise they would be doing in a village like Kaladin's?  I would say no.

[Pathfinder]

9 minutes ago, Karger said:

Old forms of manufacturing like glassblowing have existed for thousands of years.  However I do not really consider it an industrial process.  Most people for most of human history could not afford any glass.  They do seem to have gotten standardization down and that is an important step for industrialization.  However no technological advancement is evident.  For example.  Sabarial makes uniforms.  I am only speculating here but I do not think he has cracked modern textile manufacturing methods.  What I do think he is doing is taking a bunch of spinning women(or men?  It takes two hands right?) having them all work together under one roof and standardizing both the cloth they use and the things they make.  Is that industrialization if they are doing the same things tech wise they would be doing in a village like Kaladin's?  I would say no.

I think part of the problem/disconnect, is trying to label these societies in the cosmere as a specific time period from Earth. There are too many characteristics that are different for it to line up for me. Roshar has faster than light communication (span reeds. on earth we don't even have that yet). They have what amounts to be phone routing years and years before the phone was even a thing. They have "electrical" heating in heating fabrials, apparently long before they should have that technology. Originally textiles before the industrial revolution were done in the house holds of the workers, yet we have mention of Sebarial having whole factories for them, and that fact not being unusual. They have resource replication and refuse elimination technology earth doesn't even have in soulcasters. They have medical practices (anesthesia and antiseptic) years before they should. Azir is literate across the whole culture while Alethi is not. I think it is a large problem trying to label the planet as a certain era when so much is unique to their circumstances. And I further think it is problematic to use Earth's development to determine how they are going to develop when they have access to things we either didn't have yet, or never had. 

Edited February 28, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

24 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

There are too many characteristics that are different for it to line up for me. Roshar has faster than light communication (span reeds).

But ordinary people (the darkeyes) can't afford it.

24 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

They have "electrical" heating.

They meaning the very wealthy.

24 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Originally textiles before the industrial revolution were done in the house holds of the workers, yet we have mention of Sebarial having whole factories for them

Factories meaning large buildings.  Considering the costs of making a building on Roshar that seems like it is just an economy of scale(making smaller buildings that can stand up ot the storms is just not as cost effective).

24 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

They have resource replication and refuse elimination technology earth doesn't even have in soulcasters

Which again are only available for very wealthy people or the government.

24 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Azir is literate across the whole culture while Alethi is not.

Azir has very high levels of literary this is true(or at least we think it is) I am sure Lift could find us some illiterate people without thinking that hard about it.  However the main thrust of my argument remains true.  We have seen no evidence of this wonderful tec that ordinary people can use.  I actually am hopping that Navani will have a chance to compare notes with Kaladin about what would actually benefit ordinary citezens as he is one of the few people who has achieved upward mobility in Alethi society.

Edited February 28, 2020 by Karger

[Pathfinder]

11 minutes ago, Karger said:

But ordinary people (the darkeyes) can't afford it.

They meaning the very wealthy.

Factories meaning large buildings.  Considering the costs of making a building on Roshar that seems like it is just an economy of scale(making smaller buildings that can stand up ot the storms is just not as cost effective).

Which again are only available for very wealthy people or the government.

Azir has very high levels of literary this is true(or at least we think it is) I am sure Lift could find us some illiterate people without thinking that hard about it.  However the main thrust of my argument remains true.  We have seen no evidence of this wonderful tec that ordinary people can use.  I actually am hopping that Navani will have a chance to compare notes with Kaladin about what would actually benefit ordinary citezens as he is one of the few people who has achieved upward mobility in Alethi society.

Honestly I feel that is reductionist. There is a growing merchant class. The industrial revolution was not fueled by the poor. It was the affluent with the capital to build the factories and then with the interest in ramping up production, the technologies advanced. Which is exactly what is occurring with Sebarial to me. From what I have seen of Roshar, all the hurdles and problems you are mentioning, occurred years ago in Roshar's past. They are at the cusp of reaching critical mass to begin their industrial revolution, and war time further stimulates that. Which is exactly what I feel Rhythm of War is saying. Technological arms race doesn't only mean developing weapons. It means production across the board. Food, textile, and so on. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

28 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I think part of the problem/disconnect, is trying to label these societies in the cosmere as a specific time period from Earth. There are too many characteristics that are different for it to line up for me. Roshar has faster than light communication (span reeds. on earth we don't even have that yet).

Yes. Hence our problem saying in which period of science and technology they are. And we are complicating this by introducing economics. So we better introduce some precision. Industry in the sense necessary for an (mago)industrial revolution needs

• division of labor
• use of an external source of energy
• mechanization

Roshar, as High Prince Sebarial demonstrated, may have a primitive form of division of labor, but nothing more.

28 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

They have what amounts to be phone routing years and years before the phone was even a thing. They have "electrical" heating in heating fabrials, apparently long before they should have that technology. Originally textiles before the industrial revolution were done in the house holds of the workers, yet we have mention of Sebarial having whole factories for them, and that fact not being unusual.

Centralized production was known before the industrial revolution. For textiles in the 18th and 17th century. Protoindustries like shipbuilding go back to the Bronze Age. In fact Russian archaelogists have discovered a Bronze Age town dedicated to metal working (Sintašta - if I romaniye this correctly).

28 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

They have resource replication and refuse elimination technology earth doesn't even have in soulcasters. They have medical practices (anesthesia and antiseptic) years before they should. Azir is literate across the whole culture while Alethi is not. I think it is a large problem trying to label the planet as a certain era when so much is unique to their circumstances. And I further think it is problematic to use Earth's development to determine how they are going to develop when they have access to things we either didn't have yet, or never had. 

Again, this is very much concentrated on the rich, powerful and soldiers. The average Rosharan is a peasant working with hand tools. It takes time to concentrate capital and train a work force. We have to estimate at least a generation likelier two.

[Pathfinder]

12 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes. Hence our problem saying in which period of science and technology they are. And we are complicating this by introducing economics. So we better introduce some precision. Industry in the sense necessary for an (mago)industrial revolution needs

• division of labor

Depends on the country on Roshar you are referring to. The Alethi is very stratified in division of labor. The Azir are not. Thaylenah is not. These are members of the current coalition

Quote

• use of an external source of energy

They have the equivalency of solar power more prevalent than even us in the modern day. They use stormlight for renewable lighting. They use stormlight for food production. They use stormlight for refuse disposal. They use stormlight for internal heating. They use stormlight for cold food storage. They are going to be using stormlight for indoor plumbing (as mentioned by Navani). A renewable resource without the full on environmental impact that coal and oil caused. Gemstones are the only limiting factor. Now that the Radiants returned and they are not as limited regarding gemstones, that would push things even further. 

Quote

• mechanization

Navani's sketches shows the beginnings of such concepts already. 

 

edit: and again going back to the original reason for this thread. Roshar has numerous ways of accessing the cognitive realm. A realm that already has existing trade with other worlds. Trade that will result in exchanging of ideas, and additional technologies that Roshar does not have, but could jump start their development. Imagine theorizing about machines, and then travel to the cognitive realm, and see one being sold by another planet. You don't even have to buy it or break it apart to see how it ticks. The ideas and inspiration of what is possible, could lead to all sorts of innovations. Storms the microwave is the result of radar. Two completely unconnected innovations in practice and form, had one lead to the other by accident. 

 

edit 2: so to answer your initial question about "at which point becomes mass awareness of and mass access to the cognitive realm inevitable", I believe the answer is Roshar, and the time is now. Enemy combatants have taken over the cognitive realm. Team Honor is going to have to take the fight to there and liberate spren cities from fused control. Travel between realms is going to become common place and intermingling of cultures is going to be the norm. Discovery of other worlds will occur in short order due to reclaiming occupied territory where such trade had taken place with immortal spren for centuries. 

Edited February 28, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Depends on the country on Roshar you are referring to. The Alethi is very stratified in division of labor. The Azir are not. Thaylenah is not. These are members of the current coalition

The work they do is divided.  The skills necessary to do the work are not.  You could train to do most of the jobs that the bottom 6 nahns do within a year easily.  We know very little about Theylen workers.  We only have two PoVs from them and they are both members of that society's upper crust if not the top brackets.

5 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

They have the equivalency of solar power more prevalent than even us in the modern day. They use stormlight for renewable lighting

That is a noteworthy outlier it will be important as day laborers do not have to depend on the sun for light but it is not representative.

6 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

They use stormlight for food production. They use stormlight for refuse disposal

They meaning the government.  No private citizen has a soulcaster and they don't know how to make them yet meaning they will not be able to serve a large population.

7 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

They use stormlight for internal heating

Again only the wealthy.

7 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

They use stormlight for cold food storage

Really where?

7 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

They are going to be using stormlight for indoor plumbing (as mentioned by Navani).

What about city wide pluming?  The first flush able toilet was invented over a thousand years ago but it was a curiosity.  Until a modestly wealthy individual can afford a technology it will primarily be used in warfare but not effect the lives of an ordinary person much.

9 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Gemstones are the only limiting factor. Now that the Radiants returned and they are not as limited regarding gemstones, that would push things even further. 

And they are quite limiting.  How do Radiants make them less limited?

9 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Navani's sketches shows the beginnings of such concepts already. 

The beginnings yes but it will likely be years before people start training specifically to manage mechanization. 

[Pathfinder]

39 minutes ago, Karger said:

The work they do is divided.  The skills necessary to do the work are not.  You could train to do most of the jobs that the bottom 6 nahns do within a year easily.  We know very little about Theylen workers.  We only have two PoVs from them and they are both members of that society's upper crust if not the top brackets.

That is a noteworthy outlier it will be important as day laborers do not have to depend on the sun for light but it is not representative.

They meaning the government.  No private citizen has a soulcaster and they don't know how to make them yet meaning they will not be able to serve a large population.

Again only the wealthy.

Again I am confused. The wealthy fueled industry via factories during the industrial revolution. The machines for manufactoring were not located in in the personal home first. Why do you keep saying the poor have to afford to make industry level machines?

39 minutes ago, Karger said:

Really where?

Way of Kings page 193

"Chilled, using one of the new fabrials that could make things cold"

 

I believe there is another reference in Kharbranth. I will need a sec to pull that one up. 

39 minutes ago, Karger said:

What about city wide pluming?  The first flush able toilet was invented over a thousand years ago but it was a curiosity.  Until a modestly wealthy individual can afford a technology it will primarily be used in warfare but not effect the lives of an ordinary person much.

Kharbranth already uses gravity plumbing, and mentioned they were working on using fabrials. 

39 minutes ago, Karger said:

And they are quite limiting.  How do Radiants make them less limited?

Because radiants can use their surges directly from stormlight. Gravitation, Adhesion, Abrasion, Division, Transportation, Transformation (yes I know we disagree on this one), Illumination, Progression, Cohesion, and Tension

39 minutes ago, Karger said:

The beginnings yes but it will likely be years before people start training specifically to manage mechanization. 

I guess at this point we will just have to agree to disagree and RAFO. I think Rhythm of War will show much of what I speak of. 

[Karger he/him]

Just now, Pathfinder said:

Again I am confused. The wealthy fueled industry via factories during the industrial revolution. The machines for manufactoring were not located in in the personal home first. Why do you keep saying the poor have to afford to make industry level machines?

They don't but they have to have some ability to afford the things produced by these industrial factories.  Most people in Alethkar do not use soulcasters for food or waste disposal despite the fact that it has the greatest concentration of them on the planet.

2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Kharbranth already uses gravity plumbing, and mentioned they were working on using fabrials. 

Sure but 1. that is a fairly affluent city state and 2. those are mostly in the homes of the wealthiest.

3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Because radiants can use their surges directly from stormlight. Gravitation, Adhesion, Abrasion, Division, Transportation, Transformation (yes I know we disagree on this one), Illumination, Progression, Cohesion, and Tension

But Radiant power(as opposed to manpower) is limited and many of them are going to be reserved for the battlefield. 

6 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I guess at this point we will just have to agree to disagree and RAFO. I think Rhythm of War will show much of what I speak of. 

I agree.  For the military.  Revolutionary tec does not reach its full potential overnight.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Again I am confused. The wealthy fueled industry via factories during the industrial revolution. The machines for manufactoring were not located in in the personal home first. Why do you keep saying the poor have to afford to make industry level machines?

To start an industrial revolution, no, that is not necessary. To enjoy the level of wealth relevant the initial question of going to the CR (Shadesmar specifically) it would be necessary. Hence my attempt to separate the topics.

2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Because radiants can use their surges directly from stormlight. Gravitation, Adhesion, Abrasion, Division, Transportation, Transformation (yes I know we disagree on this one), Illumination, Progression, Cohesion, and Tension

Yes, they can. But the surges and fabrials are as yet not used in industry much. Fabrials for heating and cooling actually are luxury goods. There are some exceptions using them in industry but they are few. (In shipping and soulcasters for metals). Soulcasters are specifically used to substitute agricultural products or in construction or waste disposal. Specificlly not in manufacture in the strict sense.

Now, nobody has argued that this state of affairs need be permanent. It is possible that Roshar will soon start an industrial revolution. But it is not inevitable (baring a major catastrophe) like on Scadrial. And if it happens, it will take considerable time to transform Roshar.

 

[Pathfinder]

59 minutes ago, Karger said:

They don't but they have to have some ability to afford the things produced by these industrial factories.  Most people in Alethkar do not use soulcasters for food or waste disposal despite the fact that it has the greatest concentration of them on the planet.

But they can afford them, and they do use them. Chouta is soulcast food prepared with spices sold as a street food. Latrines and trash are for waste removal with soulcasters. Yes the quote below refers to a palace, but Shallan herself says it is becoming increasingly common. 

Way of Kings page 524

Kharbranth's palace offered far more luxury. The stone pool in the ground resembled a small personal lake, luxuriously warmed by clever fabrials that produced heat. Shallan didn't know much about fabrials yet, though part of her was very intrigued. This type was becoming increasingly common. Just the other day, the Conclave staff had sent Jasnah one to heat her chambers.  

59 minutes ago, Karger said:

Sure but 1. that is a fairly affluent city state and 2. those are mostly in the homes of the wealthiest.

It is a city state with no where near the global power other nations have. It exists by being "uninteresting". Otherwise it would have been conquered by someone else. It says as much in the book. 

59 minutes ago, Karger said:

But Radiant power(as opposed to manpower) is limited and many of them are going to be reserved for the battlefield. 

Radiant enlistment has already grown with the windrunners alone. There are multiple truthwatchers. There is a time gap between book 3 and 4. Brandon confirmed there will be more dustbringers. Brandon also confirmed not every radiant was used on the battlefield. Some can do a whole lot to aid the war effort at home. 

59 minutes ago, Karger said:

I agree.  For the military.  Revolutionary tec does not reach its full potential overnight.

I think this is another point of disconnect between us. What I envision is not overnight. But I also do not think it will take 100s of years. I do not think that is unreasonable. 

53 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

To start an industrial revolution, no, that is not necessary. To enjoy the level of wealth relevant the initial question of going to the CR (Shadesmar specifically) it would be necessary. Hence my attempt to separate the topics.

Considering two of the means to access the cognitive realm involve radiant orders that do not choose based on economic status, I do not think that would be as great a barrier as you posit. But to each their own. 

53 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes, they can. But the surges and fabrials are as yet not used in industry much. Fabrials for heating and cooling actually are luxury goods. There are some exceptions using them in industry but they are few. (In shipping and soulcasters for metals). Soulcasters are specifically used to substitute agricultural products or in construction or waste disposal. Specificlly not in manufacture in the strict sense.

As per the Shallan quote above, and the drawings the Navani is working on (including the wrist watch) I believe is indicative of a growing focus on fabrials. 

53 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Now, nobody has argued that this state of affairs need be permanent. It is possible that Roshar will soon start an industrial revolution. But it is not inevitable (baring a major catastrophe) like on Scadrial. And if it happens, it will take considerable time to transform Roshar.

Personally I see a middle ground between "tomorrow" and "considerable time" (100s of years). I think Roshar is prime, and well on its way. I think the war, the knowledge, access to the cognitive realm, and other cultures are all aspects to cause advancement in leaps and bounds. But this seems to be something we fundamentally disagree on, so I guess it is RAFO till Rhythm of War comes out.