Spiritual Realm mechanics of Scadrial's magic?

[CWS]

I have questions about the physical and spiritual mechanics of Scadrial's magic.  I tried to read as many of the Q/As Sanderson has done, but I'm sure I'm missing stuff, so I apologize if this is a rehash of old ground...

Question(s) about the spiritual mechanics of Allomancy:

Allomancy is of preservation, energy external to the metal "focus" or gateway is "filtered" through the metal, the patterns present in the metal shapes the energy into what we see...  

So allomancers have to be able to push that preservation energy through a gateway and they have to have a metal's pattern available to be that gateway for allomancy to work, energy interactions like this happen in the spiritual realm.

I have questions about both parts of this, but the metal focus is much more interesting.  The metal's spiritual "pattern" has to be available to the allomancer to push this energy through, its not done by simple proximity in the physical world (or I havent picked up any instance where it has happened) So a link in the Spiritual Realm between the allomancer's spirit web and the metal's spiritual pattern has to be made.  Allomancers eat metal in the physical world to gain the ability to push energy through its spiritual pattern. Is ingesting metal in the physical realm akin to "mounting" its spiritual pattern onto the allomancers spirit web?  If so, Is what type of misting the person is written in their sDNA, like acceptor of <insert metal>'s spirit web? Would mistborns be the sDNA analogue to a bloodtype AB positive person being a "universal acceptor" of metal spiritwebs?

This spiritweb of the metal that serving as the filter for preservation's energy gets consumed in the process, the more metal an allomancer eats in the physical realm the more energy the metals spiritweb can "sink" before being consumed.  The consuming of the metal's spiritweb in the spiritual realm has the effect of burning it in the physical realm.


Follow on question about the physical and spiritual mechanics of Feruchemy compounding:

Feruchemist's turn metal into metalminds to store "things (energy?)" and key that store with a part of their identity.  

The creation of a metal mind and the attuning it to the feruchemist's identity seems a thing of restructuring the metals spirit web, and attaching/attuning that spirit web to the owner's identity.  My thought is that this process is not one that filters energy (like allomancy filters preservations energy through a metal's spiritweb) but stores commodities intrinsic to the feruchemist (I dont want to call it energy, cause its more varried than the preservation energy used in allomancy, and it doesn't intuitively connect for me to call someone's weight "investiture") but as much has been said by Sanderson in the way feruchemy is net neutral.  

For componunding to work, based on the mountains of assumptions I've already made, a metalmind's spiritweb has to have a place in it for the stored commodity's spiritual aspect, something that makes it a spiritually different filter when filled vs when empty.  To compound that storage then an allomancer, keyed to a metalminds identity, would push preservations energy through the spiritweb of the metalmind, just like energy is pushed through an allomantic metal's "normal"
spiritweb in allomancy?  The additional energy used by preservation in this process gives the far better than nutral output.  

So, filled metalminds used in compounding arent consumed, just the stored commodity is consumed right?  If so then spiritually the allomancer when compounding would just be using that difference in the metalminds spiritweb, that part thats the commodity's spiritual component, so the result in the physical realm is just an empty metalmind, still keyed to the users identity?



I didnt know the right place to put this host of questions, and I'd speculate further (more interesting ideas follow) but odds are by now I'm off on something profound, so it would be a waste of time to read.  I figured detailed mechanics info is out there, I just dont know where to look.
 

Edited May 23, 2014 by CWS

[Moogle]

I have questions about both parts of this, but the metal focus is much more interesting.  The metal's spiritual "pattern" has to be available to the allomancer to push this energy through, its not done by simple proximity in the physical world (or I havent picked up any instance where it has happened) So a link in the Spiritual Realm between the allomancer's spirit web and the metal's spiritual pattern has to be made. 

 

I'm not sure if this is necessarily correct. I think the Physical pattern of the metal's molecules is what matters, not anything Spiritual. Going by this WoB:

 

People ask about getting the power from metals and things, but that’s not actually how it works. The power’s not coming from metal. I talked a little about this before, but you are drawing power from some source, and the metal is actually just a gateway. It’s actually the molecular structure of the metal… what’s going on there, the pattern, the resonance of that metal works in the same way as an Aon does in Elantris. It filters the power. So it is just a sign of “this is what power this energy is going to be shaped into and give you.” When you understand that, compounding [in Alloy of Law] makes much more sense.

 

 

Allomancers eat metal in the physical world to gain the ability to push energy through its spiritual pattern. Is ingesting metal in the physical realm akin to "mounting" its spiritual pattern onto the allomancers spirit web?  If so, Is what type of misting the person is written in their sDNA, like acceptor of <insert metal>'s spirit web? Would mistborns be the sDNA analogue to a bloodtype AB positive person being a "universal acceptor" of metal spiritwebs?

 

Minor note: you don't have to ingest the metal in question to use it. So long as it's in you, you can burn it. (Just not if it's in as a Hemalurgic spike.)

 

As to the "type of Misting" argument, we have no WoBs on that. We've had conversations on it scattered all over the forums. I don't think it's like Mistborn being a "universal acceptor" bloodtype, though. If it were that simple, Hemalurgy should be able to steal all of a Mistborn's powers. Instead, it can only steal one (as far as anyone knows; apparently it's possible to steal two or more by hitting the right nerves in the heart). If there was one gene for each Allomantic power, it wouldn't explain things either - you'd be able to have Mistings with access to more than one metal.

 

It's also an interesting question to me as to why Mistborn can't use Preservation's power without metals. You'd think they'd be able to draw power from their link to Preservation regardless of whether they have metals in their stomach, and maybe get an effect similar to holding Stormlight. Perhaps they can and they're limited by their perceptions?

 

There's a possible answer to all of this in the form of lerasium, since we know an alloy of lerasium can create a Misting of whatever you alloy it with (though perhaps not atium, atium Mistings were created specifically by Preservation and are not "natural"). I'm not sure what conclusion to draw on this, though.

 

Tie into all this the question of how Allomantic power is supposed to be reduced over generations, and you have a very interesting puzzle. How Allomancy works is a surprisingly complex topic.

 

 

The creation of a metal mind and the attuning it to the feruchemist's identity seems a thing of restructuring the metals spirit web, and attaching/attuning that spirit web to the owner's identity.  My thought is that this process is not one that filters energy (like allomancy filters preservations energy through a metal's spiritweb) but stores commodities intrinsic to the feruchemist (I dont want to call it energy, cause its more varried than the preservation energy used in allomancy, and it doesn't intuitively connect for me to call someone's weight "investiture") but as much has been said by Sanderson in the way feruchemy is net neutral. 

 

Metalminds are "Invested" objects, and the "end-neutral" term means there is no net gain or loss of Investiture in the end. So Investiture definitely comes from the Feruchemist at some point - you may as well call someone's weight "Investiture". Think about it in terms of Lift converting food to Stormlight and it might make (slightly) more sense. You can convert mass to energy and energy to mass, so apparently you can turn anything into Investiture and back.

 

 

For componunding to work...

 

Here's the two detailed explanations on Compounding:

 

 

Open The Fridge

My question is if there’s anything that you’ve never been asked that you would like to talk about?

Brandon Sanderson

Oooooh, ok. Hm. That one is so hard! Every time people ask me something like this... What have I never been asked that people should be asking, is basically what the question is? Something that the fans have just missed... They pick up on so much, that it’s hard... I do wonder if, you know… all the magic systems [in my books] are connected and work on some basic fundamental principles, and a lot of people haven’t been asking questions about this. One thing I did get a question on today, and I’ll just talk about this one... they didn’t ask the right question, but I nudged them the right way, is understanding that tie between Aondor [the magic system from Elantris] and allomancy [Mistborn’s magic system].

People ask about getting the power from metals and things, but that’s not actually how it works. The power’s not coming from metal. I talked a little about this before, but you are drawing power from some source, and the metal is actually just a gateway. It’s actually the molecular structure of the metal… what’s going on there, the pattern, the resonance of that metal works in the same way as an Aon does in Elantris. It filters the power. So it is just a sign of “this is what power this energy is going to be shaped into and give you.” When you understand that, compounding [in Alloy of Law] makes much more sense.

Compounding is where you are able to kind of draw in more power than you should with feruchemy. What’s going on there is you’re actually charging a piece of metal, and then you are burning that metal as a feruchemical charge. What is happening is that the feruchemical charge overwrites the allomantic charge, and so you actually fuel feruchemy with allomancy, is what you are doing. Then if you just get out another piece of metal and store it in, since you’re not drawing the power from yourself, you’re cheating the system, you’re short-circuiting the system a little bit. So you can actually use the power that usually fuels allomancy, to fuel feruchemy, which you can then store in a metalmind, and basically build up these huge reservoirs of it. So what’s going on there is… imagine there’s like, an imprint, a wavelength, so to speak. A beat for an allomantic thing, that when you burn a metal, it says “ok, this is what power we give.” When it’s got that charge, it changes that beat and says, “now we get this power.” And you access a set of feruchemical power. That’s why compounding is so powerful.

 

 

Question

How does compounding work in Mistborn?

Brandon Sanderson

I can explain this better in person because I know things that the characters in the book don’t. So, they haven’t worked a lot of this out. All the magic systems in my work are linked because the books all take place in the same universe. In Elantris, magic works by drawing symbols in the air. What actually happens is that when they draw a symbol, energy passes through it from another place (which is my get-out for the laws of thermodynamics) and the effect of that energy is moderated by the symbol. In one case it may become light, in another it may become fire. In Mistborn, the metals have a similar effect. The magic is not coming from the metal (even if some characters think it is). It is being drawn from the same place and moderated by the metal.

In the case of Feruchemy, no energy is being drawn from this other place. So, you spend a week sick and store up the ability to heal. It’s a balanced system, basically obeying the laws of thermodynamics. So, while it’s not real, it’s still rational.

In compounding, when you have the power of both Allomancy and Feruchemy, you draw power from the other place through the metal and it recognizes the power that is already stored—"Oh, this is healing, I know how to do that”—and so you get the power of Feruchemy but boosted by energy from the other place. This is how the Lord Ruler achieved immortality.

 

Apologies if you've read either. I got them both from here, which is where I would recommend searching for anything that interests you since I think they've got every Brandon interview ever (though they're missing a lot of new ones, which RShara compiled here).

Edited May 23, 2014 by Moogle

[PorridgeBrick]

(Just not if it's in as a Hemalurgic spike.)

He changed his mind on this one I think. Inquisitors can burn their own eyespikes, but it's an excruciatingly painful process. I can find the quote if you want.

(as far as anyone knows; apparently it's possible to steal two or more by hitting the right nerves in the heart)

Ooh, really? I must have forgotten about this one. Can I see the original wording on this one?

Perhaps they can and they're limited by their perceptions?

This seems pretty unlikely to me. You might as well say "Surgebinders can actually draw Stormlight from Honor and not have to inhale it, but they don't because they don't think they can". They probably didn't think they had magic powers in the first place, so if perception was that limiting no one would ever discover Allomancy at all.

[Moogle]

He changed his mind on this one I think. Inquisitors can burn their own eyespikes, but it's an excruciatingly painful process. I can find the quote if you want.

 

Did he? I was always unclear, and thought he was answering that question assuming that the inquisitor had taken their spike out and swallowed it or something.

 

Ooh, really? I must have forgotten about this one. Can I see the original wording on this one?

 

Here you go:

Kythis

Q:  [Didn't hear]

A:  Hemalurgy-when you spike, you place the spike in a place that determines which charge the spike gets.

Q:  Through the heart seems to pick up universally.

A:  It depends on where in the heart.  It's like acupuncture.  This is designed from acupuncture and you get very specific on which nerves you're hitting and things like that

Q:  So the spike will never pick up more than one power.

A:  Not the way they know how to do it.

(source)

 

It's a very, very suggestive quote.

 

 

This seems pretty unlikely to me. You might as well say "Surgebinders can actually draw Stormlight from Honor and not have to inhale it, but they don't because they don't think they can". They probably didn't think they had magic powers in the first place, so if perception was that limiting no one would ever discover Allomancy at all.

 

But that's not the same thing at all. Allomancy works by having the Allomancer draw power from Preservation and then they shove the power through a metal. There is no direct link to Honor for Surgebinders like that. I'm just suggesting they draw power without using it for anything in particular, and this isn't that farfetched, because we know that Inquisitors are kept alive via a link to Preservation (?) from their spikes.

[CWS]

Apologies if you've read either. I got them both from here, which is where I would recommend searching for anything that interests you since I think they've got every Brandon interview ever (though they're missing a lot of new ones, which RShara compiled here).

Thank you, I read some of these, not all of them though... even if I did certainly no need to apologize.

I'm not sure if this is necessarily correct. I think the Physical pattern of the metal's molecules is what matters, not anything Spiritual.

I read the same WoB, that makes sense, I was thinking the energy drawn from the spiritual realm passed through the metals representation in the spiritual realm which was dictated by the molecular structure... I may have been keeping the energy in the spiritual realm too long, and its actually "attenuated" in physical realm when it passes through the metal...

I think you're right in the fact that if mistings/mistborns were as simple as a portion of their spirit net being able to "touch" certain allomantic metals, then you ought to be able to spike a mistborn to get that unique "universal" piece that takes all metals. Maybe the sDNA abstracts that concept a bit more, facilitating the mutual exclucivity with mistings/mistborn in a way that "pollutes" the sDNA through generations, and Sazed turned off the "all" option via genetics.

It's also an interesting question to me as to why Mistborn can't use Preservation's power without metals. You'd think they'd be able to draw power from their link to Preservation regardless of whether they have metals in their stomach, and maybe get an effect similar to holding Stormlight. Perhaps they can and they're limited by their perceptions?

Yes, I'd been thinking about it logically as two different steps, calling/gathering preservations energy, then sending it through a metal "filter". Its been a long while since I read them, but dont we have some info in the books about mistings/mistborns attempting to burn metals that arent pure, or just attempting to burn metals that arent valid (when searching for the 11th?) It may be perception, but it seems to me like the skill to draw energy and contingent on having found a valid metal "filter", like the circut wont close until thats in place.

Metalminds are "Invested" objects, and the "end-neutral" term means there is no net gain or loss of Investiture in the end. So Investiture definitely comes from the Feruchemist at some point - you may as well call someone's weight "Investiture".

I guess I wanted a way to label investiture, because theres some process required to convert investiture begotten of weight into speed, or stormlight investiture into biochroma investiture... Hopefully it'll be easier for nicrosil ferrings (actually I hope so or else gems on Roshar would be a poor mans nicromind)

Compounding is where you are able to kind of draw in more power than you should with feruchemy. What’s going on there is you’re actually charging a piece of metal, and then you are burning that metal as a feruchemical charge.

Sorry, thats supposed to be a quote of a quote, but this is the part that I didnt make the jump to... you're actually burning the metalmind, as in consuming it, you wont have a metalmind after this process in the physical realm? I just didnt envision Miles as burning a goldmind when he healed, more allomantically burning the stored health in his gold mind instead of tapping it. Based on this that(my misguided idea) seems completely wrong, its as simple as him consuming his goldmind. Edited May 23, 2014 by CWS

[Moogle]

Sorry, thats supposed to be a quote of a quote, but this is the part that I didnt make the jump to...  you're actually burning the metalmind, as in consuming it, you wont have a metalmind after this process in the physical realm?  I just didnt envision Miles as burning a goldmind when he healed, more allomantically burning the stored health in his gold mind instead of tapping it.  Based on this that seems completely wrong, its as simple as him consuming his goldmind.

 

That's right. You charge a metalmind, then you swallow it (or stick it in you) and burn it. Instead of getting the normal Allomantic power, you get a burst of the Feruchemical attribute you stored. You don't really need to do much more than charge a flake of metal for a few seconds to get a ton of Feruchemical power stored, though, I think.

 

Yes, I'd been thinking about it logically as two different steps, calling/gathering preservations energy, then sending it through a metal "filter".  Its been a long while since I read them, but dont we have some info in the books about mistings/mistborns attempting to burn metals that arent pure, or just attempting to burn metals that arent valid (when searching for the 11th?)  It may be perception, but it seems to me like the skill to draw energy and contingent on having found a valid metal "filter", like the circut wont close until thats in place.

 

Good point on bad alloys. As to the fact that you need a circuit, it does make a good amount of sense. You need something to act as a sort of low-pressure area for the Investiture from Preservation to flow, so you'd use a metal to 'suck' the Investiture in. This keeps making me think of the theory about Surgebinders having gemhearts...

Edited May 23, 2014 by Moogle

[CWS]

That's right. You charge a metalmind, then you swallow it (or stick it in you) and burn it. Instead of getting the normal Allomantic power, you get a burst of the Feruchemical attribute you stored. You don't really need to do much more than charge a flake of metal for a few seconds to get a ton of Feruchemical power stored, though, I think.

Cool, its the simpliest way for it to work, for whatever reason I just didnt make that connection when actually reading...  Thanks.

 

 

...This keeps making me think of the theory about Surgebinders having gemhearts...

I can see something like that, but what about storing investiture on Nalthis or Sel, you think they have some investiture "battery" in the physical realm?  Surgebinders storing stormlight investiture really does seem a LOT like a gem holding stormlight...

[Moogle]

I can see something like that, but what about storing investiture on Nalthis or Sel, you think they have some investiture "battery" in the physical realm?  Surgebinders storing stormlight investiture really does seem a LOT like a gem holding stormlight...

 

Well, there seems to be a sort of 'battery' for most every type of Investiture on quite a few planets. It wouldn't be too farfetched for every planet to have them, though I don't know what you'd use on Sel (Elantris) or Nalthis (Warbreaker). Life itself seems to be its own battery on Nalthis, since Investiture likes to 'stick' to things that are lifelike.

Edited May 23, 2014 by Moogle

[PorridgeBrick]

Did he? I was always unclear, and thought he was answering that question assuming that the inquisitor had taken their spike out and swallowed it or something.

 

It's a very, very suggestive quote.

 

But that's not the same thing at all. Allomancy works by having the Allomancer draw power from Preservation and then they shove the power through a metal. There is no direct link to Honor for Surgebinders like that. I'm just suggesting they draw power without using it for anything in particular, and this isn't that farfetched, because we know that Inquisitors are kept alive via a link to Preservation (?) from their spikes.

Hmm. I suppose you could read it that way, but I don't think an Inquisitor would be in any fit state to burn anything after taking out their eyespikes. Still, it might be worth asking again in some way for clarification.

That does sound pretty suggestive. Interesting.

I just think we shouldn't say "They can do this, they just think they can't." If it's something anyone can do easily, they're going to find out and use it. And I'm sure they'd notice if they took in Investiture, because the signs tend to be rather flashy. They only feel available reserves, Investiture to use, when they have metal inside them. Besides, being able to just draw power into them without metals any time they feel like it kinda breaks Sanderson's Laws of Magic. There'd be no limit to it– just draw from it whenever you want, and boom, you're all glowy and heal-y and bleh.

I agree with CWS. I've been visualizing the process as a circuit of sorts the whole time. Without metal, you and Preservation have nothing connecting you, no way for power to transfer. Add a metal, and now you're 'plugged in' to Preservation's power.

Liking the battery speculation here. On Sel, symbols (under certain regional systems) seem to be the battery. In Dakhor, for example, you keep your magical effects even far from your homeland, so there must be power stored in those bone twists that is being used there.

[Moogle]

I just think we shouldn't say "They can do this, they just think they can't." If it's something anyone can do easily, they're going to find out and use it. And I'm sure they'd notice if they took in Investiture, because the signs tend to be rather flashy. They only feel available reserves, Investiture to use, when they have metal inside them. Besides, being able to just draw power into them without metals any time they feel like it kinda breaks Sanderson's Laws of Magic. There'd be no limit to it– just draw from it whenever you want, and boom, you're all glowy and heal-y and bleh.

 

Scadrial is a low-Investiture world. I don't think being able to link up to Preservation at any time will lead to anything like Stormlight healing. It might be the equivalent of being able to have 2 Breaths rather than 1. Something you might want to try and leave on, but nothing particularly special.

 

As I've said, though, I've come to suspect that the metals themselves are what draw Investiture through the link, so you'd have to burn metal to draw Investiture from Preservation. It could be sort of like the metals act like someone sucking on a straw to get Investiture from the link (given how gemstones work in a similar way in highstorms).

 

I think it might be possible to not filter the power through the metal, though, and just 'hold' the Investiture from the burning metal. Pity I'm not a Misting so I can't test out any of these theories. It'd make everything a lot easier...

Edited May 23, 2014 by Moogle