TheWadehart he/him Posted October 18, 2019 Posted October 18, 2019 Looking for some clarification. I have tried to find this on the Forums and Arcanum, but what I have found so far is either contradictory or incomplete. Corrupted investiture. IF I understand it correctly is "what happens when one shard interferes with the investiture of another shard"? And the investiture turns red when it's corrupted? OK, what I can't figure out is the difference between what happened to Glys (which is red) and all of the other spren that Sja-Anat had corrupted (none of which is red, but IS weirdly misshapen)? Is their any actual information about this? Or am i misunderstanding something? 1
Honorless he/him Posted October 18, 2019 Posted October 18, 2019 I think it might have to do with the fact that all those other spren were lesser spren, incapable of the Nahel Bond. The Radiant spren, being more oriented towards Honor and Cultivation, would show more clear indications of Investiture corruption. The rest of the spren have probably remained the same since Adonalsium put them there. Since Odium is nothing but a part of Adonalsium, those spren are technically not corrupted at all. They are changed, twisted by Odium's influence though, and that is reflected in their twisted forms. But they aren't red, that is because it has enhanced their connection to a part of what made them, which is what Odium is. 4
Karger he/him Posted October 18, 2019 Posted October 18, 2019 (edited) Quote OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016) #2 Share Copy Play/Pause Play/Pause Blightsong How does corrupted investiture work, like Nightblood? Brandon Sanderson Oh, Nightblood. Again, this is a definition of what somebody feels is a corruption. For instance, there are spren that people would feel are corrupted. But that's corruption where the mixing of different Shards has changed things, and I think a lot of times when people say corruption, what they're meaning is the mixing of Shards' powers. Blightsong So is there a mixing of Shards' powers happening with Nightblood? Brandon Sanderson *smirks* RAFO. That's the natural question, I'm glad you asked it. Blightsong Ok, uhhh, so something similar is happening with Gavilar's sphere, right? Brandon Sanderson *contemplative silence* RAFO. Edited October 18, 2019 by Karger 1
+Harrycrapper Posted October 18, 2019 Posted October 18, 2019 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Honorless said: I think it might have to do with the fact that all those other spren were lesser spren, incapable of the Nahel Bond. The Radiant spren, being more oriented towards Honor and Cultivation, would show more clear indications of Investiture corruption. The rest of the spren have probably remained the same since Adonalsium put them there. Since Odium is nothing but a part of Adonalsium, those spren are technically not corrupted at all. They are changed, twisted by Odium's influence though, and that is reflected in their twisted forms. But they aren't red, that is because it has enhanced their connection to a part of what made them, which is what Odium is. I had thought along similar lines until I remembered the Parshendi and their red eyes in WoR. I was under the impression they were created by Adonalsium as well... The whole corrupted investiture thing does seem kinda inconsistent. I never understood why anything done with Hemalurgy didn't result in corruption or corruption indicated by red in some way. Why don't spren created by both Honor and Cultivation have red to indicate corruption? You could argue Honor and Cultivation were cooperating but where does that leave us with Hemalurgy? Preservation and Ruin definitly were not cooperating and Ruin co-opted the power of Preservation for his minions quite frequently. And lets not forget the Dor as well, a huge conglomerate of entangled investiture but red doesn't seem to be in any of the magic systems we've seen there. I think there's more to this than "Shard interfering in other Shard investiture = red." Edited October 18, 2019 by Harrycrapper 1
Honorless he/him Posted October 18, 2019 Posted October 18, 2019 21 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said: I had thought along similar lines until I remembered the Parshendi and their red eyes in WoR. I was under the impression they were created by Adonalsium as well... The whole corrupted investiture thing does seem kinda inconsistent. I never understood why anything done with Hemalurgy didn't result in corruption or corruption indicated by red in some way. Why don't spren created by both Honor and Cultivation have red to indicate corruption? You could argue Honor and Cultivation were cooperating but where does that leave us with Hemalurgy? Preservation and Ruin definitly were not cooperating and Ruin co-opted the power of Preservation for his minions quite frequently. And lets not forget the Dor as well, a huge conglomerate of entangled investiture but red doesn't seem to be in any of the magic systems we've seen there. I think there's more to this than "Shard interfering in other Shard investiture = red." That's because most of the time Ruin wasn't co-opting Preservation's power. The art of Hemalurgy is, by it's very nature, theft. Remember also that the planet Scadrial itself is infused with both Preservation and Ruin, since they created it. Interference by itself doesn't result in the reddishness. The Investiture in question would need to belong to a different Shard but being used by another Shard for it to happen. The Dor isn't a Shard, it's two Shards mixed and stuffed into the Cognitive Realm. There's no co-opting going on, since Aona and Skai are both dead. When an Elantrian (or a Forger or a Bloodsealer or a Dakhor monk or a ChayShan user or a potion maker from Hrovell) access the Dor, they're accessing this mix, not Dominion using part of Devotion or vice-versa, rather whatever fraction of each their system of Investiture requires If this redness is inexplicable somewhere, it's within Surgebinding. Both Dustbringers and Lightweavers are supposed to develop reddish coloured eyes (unless they're already lighteyed) 2
Aon Tia she/her Posted October 18, 2019 Posted October 18, 2019 45 minutes ago, Honorless said: Both Dustbringers and Lightweavers are supposed to develop reddish coloured eyes (unless they're already lighteyed) Where does that come from? Wobs? Rest all I agree. Mixing of two shards and co-opting the shard of another. I am not clear though on the significance of black colour 1
Honorless he/him Posted October 19, 2019 Posted October 19, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, The traveller said: Where does that come from? WoBs? All the Orders' colours, including the Dustbringers' and Lightweavers', have already been stated in the books, (ruby and garnet, respectively) There is a WoB on why Shallan's eyes aren't red (Kaladin and Lift both have their Order's eyes now, sapphire blue and diamond-like clear grey respectively as stated in Oathbringer) He said it's because she's already a lighteyes. @Harrycrapper, the Parshendi have red eyes when they take on the Forms of Power because they have to house Voidspren in their Gemhearts to do so. It is suspected that all Voidspren might be spren that Odium corrupted completely so that he didn't have to Invest himself to create entirely new ones and potentially get weaker. The Fused, on the other hand, literally steal and co-opt others' bodies. It is suspected that the Unmade might similarly be examples of beings corrupted by Odium, hence Sja-Anat saying that "they were made, then unmade". (sorry I missed that part last time!) Edited October 19, 2019 by Honorless 2
Calderis he/him Posted October 19, 2019 Posted October 19, 2019 I have to agree with @Honorless here. The majority of this is opinion, just saying. Roshar was created by Adonalsium before the Shattering. The lesser spren existed before Honor and Cultivation came to Roshar, whereas the sapient spren did not (barring a few possible exceptions). In many cases, where those lesser spren cm have been corrupted, it's probably more along the lines of changing the balance of what is already a mixture of Shards Investiture. With Glys, he was changed to a point the there was not just a balance shift, but what was a primary compositional factor was subverted by a new primary. In the case of the listeners/singers, I think that it's again, a matter of degree. In many ways a living thing becomes it's own entity, regardless of the composition of what's made them up, and the voidspren that provide a hole that allows a level of, not just minor influence, but direct control. The individual perceives the thoughts and actions as their own, but it's being directed by an outside source. We've seen similar elsewhere in the Cosmere. Mistborn spoilers. Spoiler Quote zas678 (paraphrased) Can Odium influence people the same way that Ruin can? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Well, you see, the kandra and the koloss have a "hole" in them that allows Ruin to come in and take over. The Parshendi naturally are protected from this, but when they expose themselves to the storms, and the spren come in, many of these spren have that kind of "hole" in them, and that's what allows Odium to take control of them. zas678 (paraphrased) No, I'm talking about how Ruin was able to push people, place things in their minds, stuff like that. Can Odium do the same thing? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Well, Odium wasn't around when those people were created, so it's a little different for him than Ruin. So if he influences people in that way, it's through the Unmade. Orem signing 2014 (Dec. 6, 2014) Quote Questioner And does [Odium] control the Voidbringers through the spren in the same way that the Inquisitors were controlled by Ruin? Brandon Sanderson There are definitely-- In fact what you have just seen with Eshonai shares an awful lot with what happened in Mistborn. Salt Lake City Comic-Con 2014 (Sept. 4, 2014) So, while it is the same thing, I think it's all matters of degrees. I'd guess in my mind it's really, once something is changed to red, it's very nature is changed. With the lesser spren... There's some minor changes, and they appear and maybe even act a bit differently, but they're still drawn to and act on the exact same things.
Honorless he/him Posted October 19, 2019 Posted October 19, 2019 7 hours ago, The traveller said: I am not clear though on the significance of black colour Black is simply the colour of Ruin. Not just because darkness and colour of evil or the void, those were certainly factors, but also because of the direct polarity between Preservation and Ruin. The former was white and the latter was black. This was the narrative reason, a stylistic choice, and part of the in-world reason. We don't know much about Shard colour associations though, so if there's more to it than that, I don't think it's been revealed yet.
Calderis he/him Posted October 19, 2019 Posted October 19, 2019 20 minutes ago, Honorless said: Black is simply the colour of Ruin. Not just because darkness and colour of evil or the void, those were certainly factors, but also because of the direct polarity between Preservation and Ruin. The former was white and the latter was black. This was the narrative reason, a stylistic choice, and part of the in-world reason. We don't know much about Shard colour associations though, so if there's more to it than that, I don't think it's been revealed yet. Shard colors are... Due to perception and relationship, and in my opinion people tend to care too much about them. That extends to other things too. Even with the red = co-opted/corrupted Investiture. Investiture hijacked in that way will turn red... But not everything red is hijacked. That said, there is some evidence that black = mixed Investiture. Quote Walin Does Nightblood contain any of Ruin's Investiture? Like, not atium, but... Brandon Sanderson Yes, technically; and I'm not wiggling around that, because technically, location in the Cosmere and who belongs to what gets really weird, right? Because Ruin's Investiture is everywhere--but I'm not talking that way. I'm talking the way you actually mean it. Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018) Quote Brandon Sanderson Anyway, Nightblood is named for the smoke he leaks, and he originally had a different name when he was created. Vasher himself dubbed the sword Nightblood after he had used it to kill the woman he loved. The blackness that leaks out is actually corrupted and consumed Breaths, the ones that Nightblood leeches off anyone who draws him. Warbreaker Annotations (April 25, 2011) Quote Blightsong How does corrupted investiture work, like Nightblood? Brandon Sanderson Oh, Nightblood. Again, this is a definition of what somebody feels is a corruption. For instance, there are spren that people would feel are corrupted. But that's corruption where the mixing of different Shards has changed things, and I think a lot of times when people say corruption, what they're meaning is the mixing of Shards' powers. Blightsong So is there a mixing of Shards' powers happening with Nightblood? Brandon Sanderson *smirks* RAFO. That's the natural question, I'm glad you asked it. Blightsong Ok, uhhh, so something similar is happening with Gavilar's sphere, right? Brandon Sanderson *contemplative silence* RAFO. OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016) Personally xi think the difference is that "black" signifies an unnatural mixture of Investiture from the start, as opposed to the hijacking of red, but it's purely supposition, and even if true would still be subject to the fact that black can be a sign of that but things can be black regardless. But there is this as well. Quote Comatose Was Nightblood black before being awakened by Shashara? Brandon Sanderson No. Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017) 2
Honorless he/him Posted October 19, 2019 Posted October 19, 2019 1 hour ago, Calderis said: Shard colors are... Due to perception and relationship, and in my opinion people tend to care too much about them. That extends to other things too. Even with the red = co-opted/corrupted Investiture. Investiture hijacked in that way will turn red... But not everything red is hijacked. That said, there is some evidence that black = mixed Investiture. Personally xi think the difference is that "black" signifies an unnatural mixture of Investiture from the start, as opposed to the hijacking of red, but it's purely supposition, and even if true would still be subject to the fact that black can be a sign of that but things can be black regardless. But there is this as well. Could explain the Shades on Threnody too if Ambition managed to give a fraction of what she got. 1
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