Natural Magic on Roshar

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

You are entitled to theorize that way and hold that opinion, but the fact of the matter is Venli has envoy form that enables her to speak and understand any language, human, parsh, or otherwise. As every instance of language translation we have seen involves connection (both on and off Roshar), as well as WoB confirm translation concerns connection, then I believe Venli's envoy form works with connection. 

It almost certainly does.  However it makes no mention of her being able to do anything like the wired stuff Dalinar does with Adhesion or Hoid does with connection and its not like she has any real control over the powers.

[Pathfinder]

39 minutes ago, Karger said:

It almost certainly does.  However it makes no mention of her being able to do anything like the wired stuff Dalinar does with Adhesion or Hoid does with connection and its not like she has any real control over the powers.

GyozaGuy

Allik Neverfar has those medallions that let him to talk to people in their language, but he has an accent because it knows his parents aren't from that area. So I'm wondering, if he and his parents are both using those in a foreign land, does he no longer have an accent and his parents would?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say that they would both still have an accent. 

GyozaGuy

So it's not connected--

Brandon Sanderson

It's connecting to the soul of his parents and it's kinda picking that out. There are ways around that. If you are really good with the way Connection works and things like that. Obviously you've seen Hoid speaking without an accent all over the place. The medallions are kind of a crude, early version of doing that sort of thing, not really in control of the magic more, and so I wanted to build in some little indications that things are not quite as fluid as they will someday get.

GyozaGuy

So it's more of a hack and not a rewrite of the Connection.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, exactly.

Bluebar

It's not a direct link from them to the Investiture.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. If you find someone who's using the magic themselves, you'll see that they-- like Dalinar didn't have, the people who spoke with Dalinar didn't have accents when he was using the same sort of Connection magic to give them linguistics and things like that.

FanX Spring 2019 (April 19, 2019)

 

Venli has no issue of accents when going from speaking to an Alethi Parshendi, to a Fused. Both have different languages than her own. 

[Karger he/him]

46 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Yeah. If you find someone who's using the magic themselves, you'll see that they-- like Dalinar didn't have, the people who spoke with Dalinar didn't have accents when he was using the same sort of Connection magic to give them linguistics and things like that.

FanX Spring 2019 (April 19, 2019)

 

Venli has no issue of accents when going from speaking to an Alethi Parshendi, to a Fused. Both have different languages than her own. 

I was referring to Dalinar's stranger esoteric abilities as a bondsmith.  Whatever the Nohodon dream vision in Oathbringer was for example.

[Pathfinder]

59 minutes ago, Karger said:

I was referring to Dalinar's stranger esoteric abilities as a bondsmith.  Whatever the Nohodon dream vision in Oathbringer was for example.

And I was referring to the ability to speak and understand any language. 

[Karger he/him]

24 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

And I was referring to the ability to speak and understand any language. 

Yes but that is not what I meant when referring to wired abilities. 

[Pathfinder]

11 minutes ago, Karger said:

Yes but that is not what I meant when referring to wired abilities. 

And I was never referring to any other abilities than the ability to speak and understand languages through connection. You said Odium would limit it. I said based on the WoB and other instances, the ability to speak and understand languages has not been limited. You then brought up other abilities. I never at any point referred any other abilities than speaking and understanding languages. 

[Karger he/him]

Just now, Pathfinder said:

You said Odium would limit it

Different it's(or its? what is the plural of it?).  I gave the example of why Odium might want to limit a specific surge and used some of what is believed about spiritual adhesion to explain why.  Things like the Nohadon dreams or Hoid's stories can have a profound effect on another person prompting them to change.  Odium does not seem like he would want them to change.  The mere ability to understand a another language is not enough nor, I believe, is it all that that surge is capable of.  Forms of power are a bad example of this.  What surge does stormform use?  Adhesion is the surge of pressure but what the singers are doing is not just pressure manipulation.  The everstorm is not just a weather event.  Also Odium directly controls who gets forms of power.  He has a vetting process.

[Pathfinder]

5 minutes ago, Karger said:

Different it's(or its? what is the plural of it?).  I gave the example of why Odium might want to limit a specific surge and used some of what is believed about spiritual adhesion to explain why.  Things like the Nohadon dreams or Hoid's stories can have a profound effect on another person prompting them to change.  Odium does not seem like he would want them to change.  The mere ability to understand a another language is not enough nor, I believe, is it all that that surge is capable of.  Forms of power are a bad example of this.  What surge does stormform use?  Adhesion is the surge of pressure but what the singers are doing is not just pressure manipulation.  The everstorm is not just a weather event.  Also Odium directly controls who gets forms of power.  He has a vetting process.

Once again, you are entitled to theorize, and hold that as your opinion. Wasn't arguing that. All I stated was the portion regarding understanding and speaking any language was not limited. So good luck with your theory, I have no intention of discussing it. 

[Karger he/him]

49 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So good luck with your theory, I have no intention of discussing it. 

Then why comment at all?

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Then why comment at all?

To comment on the portion I chose to comment on. Which I did. So now I'm done.

[cometaryorbit]

I think the Fused only having 9 Surges isn't Odium's choice really, it's imposed by the 9-centric Braize "numerology" thing. Being Invested there means his magic system has to be 9-based.

And Envoyform is presumably using Connection (the generic cosmere mechanic) but not Adhesion (the Surge). Envoyform is a Form of Power, not a Fused "order".  The Forms of Power abilities don't seem to be quite the same as Surges - shooting lightning bolts (Stormform) doesn't really seem to be a Surge.

[bxcnch he/him]

I just - spontaneously - came up with this theory: There's not 10 surges but either 8 or 16, in line with the Cosmere's overall numerological motif.

I noticed that all the Surges we have seen, seem a little strange in that they don't always work the same way. Kaladin, for instance, flies by letting himself be pulled into a direction. Meanwhile, the Fused are mentioned to fly in a different way, as Kaladin says that they are flying more elegantly than he does - more like actual birds, I assume. The Surge of Gravitation seems to work very differently for Fused and Radiants. I assume that this is the same for all Surges. After all the Surges (as seen with Adhesion) are already very different between the different Radiant Orders, it would not be surprising if the surges used by the Fused and the Radiants are also very different. The surges we have seen the Fused use so far are sadly very limited. We know that one of them has used Illumination to disguise himself in Thaylen City and another one used Abrasion to escape from Lift. These surges do, admittedly, seem very similiar to the Radiant surges, but - then again - we haven't seen them a lot yet. 

If my theory is right, then there are definitely always two versions of a surge - a Radiant and a Fused version. In my opinion there are sixteen surges, 8 radiant surges and 8 "Void-Surges", just as there are 16 metals in Mistborn, 8 "normal" metals and 8 alloys. Plus, of course, the Godmetals. Similiarly I think there are God-Surges on Roshar. So it's not "9+1" and "9" for the Radiants and the Fused respectively, but it is "8+2" and "8+1". 8 Radiant Surges, Honor's Surge and Cultivation's Surge versus 8 Void-Surges and Odium's Surge. Honor's Surge is presumably Adhesion, due to Honor's association with unity and bonds, and Adhesion is quite literally binding things together. Cultivation's Surge is, I assume, Tension - even though I have no idea what exactly Tension is, so it's difficult to argue why. Odium's Surge, I assume, is Precognition - what we see Renarin do in OB. Some people have argued it might be Illumination, but the Fused that Rysn encountered used a much more Lightweaverish form of Illumination. Also it is said that seeing the future is associated with Odium.

Anyway, assuming that Tension and Adhesion are the God-Surges of Cultivation and Honor, then the Bondsmiths would wield both God-Surges and would be associated with both shards. That would explain not only why the Bondsmiths are so insanely powerful, it would also work well with the theory that the Sibling is connected to both shards.That is probably why, as the WoB says, the Fused don't have a counterpart to the Bondsmiths.

That's just my - spontaneously written - theory on the 9-10-debate. I am not quite sure about it myself, but I think my theory makes at least a tiny bit of sense. I hope. (Also I believe I've seen the word God-Surge used before, now that I think about it. I'm very sorry if someone else already had this idea)

[Scion of the Mists]

22 hours ago, bxcnch said:

I noticed that all the Surges we have seen, seem a little strange in that they don't always work the same way. Kaladin, for instance, flies by letting himself be pulled into a direction. Meanwhile, the Fused are mentioned to fly in a different way, as Kaladin says that they are flying more elegantly than he does - more like actual birds, I assume. The Surge of Gravitation seems to work very differently for Fused and Radiants. I assume that this is the same for all Surges. After all the Surges (as seen with Adhesion) are already very different between the different Radiant Orders, it would not be surprising if the surges used by the Fused and the Radiants are also very different. The surges we have seen the Fused use so far are sadly very limited. We know that one of them has used Illumination to disguise himself in Thaylen City and another one used Abrasion to escape from Lift. These surges do, admittedly, seem very similiar to the Radiant surges, but - then again - we haven't seen them a lot yet. 

While Radiant and Fused flight might be slightly different*, all the Surges that we've seen the Fused use are either the same or very similar.  I think the only ones we've seen are Gravitation, Illumination, and Abrasion, which all seem basically the same.  

 

Regarding the different Orders, their Surge usage is actually basically identical as well.  To quote myself from an older thread.  

On 6/6/2019 at 11:22 AM, Scion of the Mists said:

We haven't seen very many shared Surges, but the ones we have are pretty much identical.  

Adhesion - same between Dalinar and Kaladin

Gravitation - same between Kaladin and Szeth

Division - only seen Duskbringer (very little)

Abrasion - only seen Edgedancer

Progression - Regrowth is the same/similar between Lift and Renarin

Illumination - only seen Lightweaver

Transformation - same between Shallan and Jasnah

Transportation/Cohesion/Tension - haven't seen Willshapers or Stonewards

 

*Two theories I've seen regarding this are that the Fused can only use a single lashing at a time, or that their lashings provide different amounts of gravity, because it's based on Braize's gravity rather than Roshars.  

[Kramerfarve]

On 8/25/2019 at 10:48 AM, bxcnch said:

Kaladin, for instance, flies by letting himself be pulled into a direction. Meanwhile, the Fused are mentioned to fly in a different way, as Kaladin says that they are flying more elegantly than he does

While the surges might seem to be behaving slightly different, I feel that it can be explained by a couple of things, specifically the difference in fuel and the Fused having carapace. I’ll leave the theorizing on the effects of the fuel to others on the site, the gist of what I wanted to talk about could be explained by a single word, aerodynamics. Because the fused have carapace they can kinda cheese their flight to move more smoothly by utilizing the air/wind to their advantage plus having a lower coefficient of friction than their surgebinding counterparts. Throw in a couple thousand years of flight experience, and I think the difference in flight speed and handling can be explained pretty fast.

[bxcnch he/him]

7 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

While Radiant and Fused flight might be slightly different*, all the Surges that we've seen the Fused use are either the same or very similar.  I think the only ones we've seen are Gravitation, Illumination, and Abrasion, which all seem basically the same.  

 

Regarding the different Orders, their Surge usage is actually basically identical as well.  To quote myself from an older thread.  

 

*Two theories I've seen regarding this are that the Fused can only use a single lashing at a time, or that their lashings provide different amounts of gravity, because it's based on Braize's gravity rather than Roshars.  

I definitely disagree on the Orders having identical surges - sure, Kaladin and Dalinar both have Adhesion, but the way Dalinar uses it in Oathbringer is A LOT different than the way Kaladin uses it. Likewise I doubt that the Truthseers use Illumination like Shallan does - they don't have the same emphasis on lying and pretense. Anyway, I am almost sure that it's canon that the orders vary somewhat in how they use their surges, especially with Adhesion.

But, yeah, in retrospect, my theory actually does sound a little far-fetched overall. 

[Scion of the Mists]

16 hours ago, bxcnch said:

I definitely disagree on the Orders having identical surges - sure, Kaladin and Dalinar both have Adhesion, but the way Dalinar uses it in Oathbringer is A LOT different than the way Kaladin uses it. Likewise I doubt that the Truthseers use Illumination like Shallan does - they don't have the same emphasis on lying and pretense. Anyway, I am almost sure that it's canon that the orders vary somewhat in how they use their surges, especially with Adhesion.

But, yeah, in retrospect, my theory actually does sound a little far-fetched overall. 

Certainly Dalinar as a Bondsmith has powers unique among the Radiants; however, his use of Adhesion to break up a fight between the Aladar and Sadeas troops looks identical to Kaladin/Szeth's:

Quote

Dalinar shouted, and Stormlight shimmered along the stones before him. Those who hadn't gotten caught up in the fighting jumped back. The rest got stuck in the Stormlight, which glued them to the ground. This caused all but the most furious to stop their fighting. 

Oathbringer, Chapter 64

 

As far as Truthwatchers go, we've only seen Renarin use Illumination, maybe, and he's clearly a special case.