Inconsistencies in WoR

[Long try]

On 6/28/2019 at 5:52 PM, Ammanas said:

Not sure if you know what that means, or not, but basically fans ask him deep and obscure questions about the finer details of the cosmere and sometimes he gives answers to them at signings, events etc.

No I didn't know it beforehand, being a newbie and all. Looks like my abbreviation guessing skill has leveled up.

 

On 6/28/2019 at 9:53 PM, Pathfinder said:

Dalinar wasn't sure he would have any other Highprinces to back him up at all, but if you know a military leader lied to you, stole from you, and killed men under his command in the past to further his own goals, would you trust him to lead your own men? For myself, I most certainly would not. So I would out him before leaving, to minimize the potential sabotage he could do to my excursion in retaliation.

Hmm, this argument is so sound. Yes, Dalinar had been betrayed once and had sworn that he wouldn't ever let it happen again. Just because of that reason, he'd out Amaram either way.

 

On 6/28/2019 at 9:53 PM, Pathfinder said:

The spren the chasmfiend is bonded to, and hangs around it, cause it to be lighter, and thereby exist. Roshar also has a higher oxygen content which scientists theorize would allow for larger insectoid life forms which we do see on Roshar. The is one of the big reasons a lot of people do love Brandon's writing. Because he does account for these things. Or at least to the best of his ability. For instance soulcasting is mass conservative unless certain situations where it is not. Not sure if you know what I mean by that, so if you would like me to explain, let me know!

Well, I don't doubt for a second that Brandon spent mucho time into worldbuilding. Because it's so spectacular! Your side explanation about chasmfiends also proves it. Comparing with, say, Harry Potter's world, where everything's so easily solved by spells without any rules at all, tSA shines. It's just that... because tWoK & WoR are like the no.1 books for me, I tend to compare them with no.0 - perfection. It's a bit unfair, yes, but what can I do? Maybe my fascination with them led me to demand that every tiny thing makes sense in an absolute term. Personally, I'd have profound pleasure if my literary works were to be compared with perfection.

Regarding your mentioned mass conservative, 1 of the times when soulcasting were described in details are during Jasnah's child rescue. She turned a huge boulder into smoke. That is a certain situation when mass is not conserved, right? Because otherwise, the whole palace would not be enough to contain the volume of smoke that was created. It might even spill out into the city & onto the sky.

On 6/28/2019 at 9:53 PM, Pathfinder said:

The writers wanting the audience in some situations to still have "a happy ending", would insert a literal god, who would take pity on the protagonists plight, snap their fingers, and "fix everything".

Well yes, I used the word deus-ex to refer to a device, a machine that solves the problem easily. tWoK or WoR did mention adverse effects on the soulcaster squad, but it's literally the same as no bad effect at all. Why? Because we don't relate to them. Before coming to this great forum, my only point of reference regarding tSA was goodreads. In the reviews, I've read countless loves for Kaladin, Shallan, Adolin, Dalinar, Szeth, younameit... but no one expresses any affection toward those mentioned soulcasters. It's human psychology. We don't know their names, we don't know their faces, with us they're just figures. As someone (Stalin?) said, "when there's 1 death it's tragedy, when there's a million deaths it's statistics". As we don't care at all about these soulcasters' fate, they're literally expendable. So in a novel, if we can achieve incredible result at, well, negligible cost then it's effectively deus-ex.

I did know about Chekhov's gun, and your mention excites me. What did Brandon leave in the 2 books that will fire in the coming ones? Based on the fact that you were talking about soulcasting, I guess that Shallan will face something bad in the future.

On 6/29/2019 at 0:18 AM, Karger said:

If you look closely Kaladin does note the professionalism of Sadea's carpenters and the materials they are made from.

Hm, I do recall but overlooked this part. Is the soulcasted wood lighter than every existing kinds or is it just as light as the lightest natural wood?

 

On 6/29/2019 at 3:32 AM, Scion of the Mists said:

Shardbearers have Plate an/or Blade, but dead Blades/Plate do not give them the ability to breathe in Stormlight or heal.  

Eshonai overpowered Adolin during the fight. He only won because he outsmarted her. The Parshendi armor was barely damaged, so it was far from a dead Plate. Moreover, we need to keep in mind that inside it is a Stormform, the most powerful ever. Yet he still expected her to be dead, meaning the fall was beyond lethal.

 

On 6/29/2019 at 3:32 AM, Scion of the Mists said:

He even worried about red shift when designing the speed bubbles!

Wow that's superb! As an astronomy lover (but still newbie), my respect for him jumped.

 

On 6/29/2019 at 3:32 AM, Scion of the Mists said:

They're not objectively inconsistent, as evidenced by the people disagreeing with you.

Well, if 9 people agree on X and 1 disagrees, that doesn't mean X is objectively true  Still, I admit that we live in a world where the subjectively majority is correct, usually just by brute strength. Moreover, it's hard to find out what really is objectively true in a literary work by an author's imagination. To do that we Sandersonites will need to agree on some basic premises, such as using logic is the right way, or accept parallel correlations between the Cosmere and our universe's laws, or between Roshar's people and Earth's society.

 

On 6/29/2019 at 3:32 AM, Scion of the Mists said:

However, there were a ton of people on the forum who cried foul because Adolin murdering someone in cold blood felt extremely out of character to them.

I don't want to pick up an argument because the statement was made by "those people", but aren't there times like when Adolin used 'dirty strikes' to win a duel in seconds, or when he considered killing Sadeas right there when they watched the Highstorm with Shallan? They described Adolin's gradual change from a showboy to a more calculating man, ready to use not-so-honor force when necessary. It's ok to miss a cue, but for a ton of people to miss several, I guess they must have overlooked things.

 

3 hours ago, Nymeros said:

I dont find his explanations to be clear at all. This is why Ive asked for clarification on how he is using "inconsistent."

My presumption might be wrong, but maybe you didn't follow the thread from the beginning? There & then I listed many points (number 8 is not about inconsistency, it's a question). To echo @Steel Inquisitive, I find my details really clear. In fact, they're almost at my verbal capacity, so can't really be clearer.

I guess I can only help by defining the way I did it. I used logic as the main tool. You can see that in every argument, I pointed out that Brandon wrote something A, then he wrote something B, and A & B contradict, so explanation please?

The community has done an excellent job at enlightening me at several points (BTW, thank you my fellow Sandersonites! <3), but for a few I still keep my view. The paragraphs you quoted are just expansions of those points. As you can see, they haven't even been able to answer some of my arguments (bridges can't deal with significantly different chasm side heights, or the procrastination psychology), so I guess there are some inconsistency problems still wandering around.

Edited June 30, 2019 by Long try

[Karger he/him]

On 6/30/2019 at 4:59 AM, Long try said:

Hm, I do recall but overlooked this part. Is the soulcasted wood lighter than every existing kinds or is it just as light as the lightest natural wood?

I think they are replicating and perhaps slightly improving an A+ specimen of an existing wood.

 

On 6/30/2019 at 4:59 AM, Long try said:

Eshonai overpowered Adolin during the fight. He only won because he outsmarted her. The Parshendi armor was barely damaged, so it was far from a dead Plate. Moreover, we need to keep in mind that inside it is a Stormform, the most powerful ever. Yet he still expected her to be dead, meaning the fall was beyond lethal.

Stormform is not "more powerful" in fact in some ways it might be worse then say Warform which can likely take more punishment from say falling to your doom.  Adolin knocked her out of the fight he knew that she would not be bothering them any more and did not have time to check for a pulse.

On 6/30/2019 at 4:59 AM, Long try said:

Regarding your mentioned mass conservative, 1 of the times when soulcasting were described in details are during Jasnah's child rescue. She turned a huge boulder into smoke. That is a certain situation when mass is not conserved, right? Because otherwise, the whole palace would not be enough to contain the volume of smoke that was created. It might even spill out into the city & onto the sky.

You are correct.  While mass/energy/investiture is conserved in the cosmere it wired stuff happens during soulcastings.  Soulcasters are generally kept out of sight because of Vorin beliefs although you will eventually meet a few.

Edited July 1, 2019 by Karger

[Nymeros]

 

7 hours ago, Long try said:

 In fact, they're almost at my verbal capacity, so can't really be clearer.

 

.....theres no need, truly. Being verbose isn't synonymous with being specific.

7 hours ago, Long try said:

(bridges can't deal with significantly different chasm side heights

Who said they could? The armies use scouts and maps for this reason among others. In the first bridge run we ever see, Kaladin specifically notes that the army intentionally chose a point to cross where the 2nd plateau is slightly lower and the gap between the two plateaus is smallest. 

7 hours ago, Long try said:

the procrastination psychology)

Oh you really want us to explain how a character (who you described as a scholar) started reading a book and then finished it after a reasonable amount of time?

[Scion of the Mists]

On 6/30/2019 at 4:59 AM, Long try said:

Eshonai overpowered Adolin during the fight. He only won because he outsmarted her. The Parshendi armor was barely damaged, so it was far from a dead Plate. Moreover, we need to keep in mind that inside it is a Stormform, the most powerful ever. Yet he still expected her to be dead, meaning the fall was beyond lethal.

I called it "dead" Plate/Blade to distinguish it from a Knights Radiant Plate/Blade.  

Regardless, the point was that Eshonai wasn't a Surgebinder, she was in Shardplate.  So she was unable to breathe in Stormlight.  

 

Regarding the "inconsistency" debate.  You're listing things you feel are inconsistent, which is obviously completely fair.  But also subjective, as it's really just questioning the direction that Brandon chose to go with things.  

Most people, however, think of objective mistakes when you use the word "inconsistent."  Like continuity errors, or things that work differently in different parts of the book (e.g. mass-preserving vs volume-preserving Soulcasting).  

[Pathfinder]

On 6/30/2019 at 4:59 AM, Long try said:

Hmm, this argument is so sound. Yes, Dalinar had been betrayed once and had sworn that he wouldn't ever let it happen again. Just because of that reason, he'd out Amaram either way.

Glad to help.

On 6/30/2019 at 4:59 AM, Long try said:

Well, I don't doubt for a second that Brandon spent mucho time into worldbuilding. Because it's so spectacular! Your side explanation about chasmfiends also proves it. Comparing with, say, Harry Potter's world, where everything's so easily solved by spells without any rules at all, tSA shines. It's just that... because tWoK & WoR are like the no.1 books for me, I tend to compare them with no.0 - perfection. It's a bit unfair, yes, but what can I do? Maybe my fascination with them led me to demand that every tiny thing makes sense in an absolute term. Personally, I'd have profound pleasure if my literary works were to be compared with perfection.

No problem. Feel however you wish about the books. I was just responding to your questions and presenting any information I did have to possible answer them. 

On 6/30/2019 at 4:59 AM, Long try said:

Regarding your mentioned mass conservative, 1 of the times when soulcasting were described in details are during Jasnah's child rescue. She turned a huge boulder into smoke. That is a certain situation when mass is not conserved, right? Because otherwise, the whole palace would not be enough to contain the volume of smoke that was created. It might even spill out into the city & onto the sky.

That is correct. In the boulder situation, people have reasoned that the soulcasting should have resulted in an explosive worth of a large amount of TNT, killing anyone nearby. Also when they soulcast a person to stone, because of the density of stone, the person should technically shrink. Brandon does try to keep things as accurate as possible, but sometimes you just have to wave your fingers and say "its magic!", and err on the rule of cool. His words. 

On 6/30/2019 at 4:59 AM, Long try said:

Well yes, I used the word deus-ex to refer to a device, a machine that solves the problem easily. tWoK or WoR did mention adverse effects on the soulcaster squad, but it's literally the same as no bad effect at all. Why? Because we don't relate to them. Before coming to this great forum, my only point of reference regarding tSA was goodreads. In the reviews, I've read countless loves for Kaladin, Shallan, Adolin, Dalinar, Szeth, younameit... but no one expresses any affection toward those mentioned soulcasters. It's human psychology. We don't know their names, we don't know their faces, with us they're just figures. As someone (Stalin?) said, "when there's 1 death it's tragedy, when there's a million deaths it's statistics". As we don't care at all about these soulcasters' fate, they're literally expendable. So in a novel, if we can achieve incredible result at, well, negligible cost then it's effectively deus-ex.

That is why I explained my understanding of deus-ex machina (the god machine). Because from my understanding of it, it isn't just solving an issue "easily". It is when the "solution" is something that 

 

1. does not make sense in the overall narrative

2. is not explained. 

3. negates the protagonist's agency

 

So for me, soulcasting does not apply. As to not relating to them, in your case sure, but that is not everyone. There have been threads on here, and other places where people say "hey I wonder what happens to a soulcaster who soulcasts blood or flesh? Do they start oozing blood out of everywhere, or grow cancerous tumors?". Usually what accompanies those statements is horror for the person experiencing it. Lol again was about to type something but then remembered it was in oathbringer. I will spoiler it below, but suffice it to say, there is a scene in there that makes me very much sympathize and relate to a soulcaster

Oathbringer spoilers:

Spoiler

Kaza's interlude. A bright woman being used as a tool that will ultimately cut her life short. 

 

On 6/30/2019 at 4:59 AM, Long try said:

I did know about Chekhov's gun, and your mention excites me. What did Brandon leave in the 2 books that will fire in the coming ones? Based on the fact that you were talking about soulcasting, I guess that Shallan will face something bad in the future.

Well I was more mentioning just another literary device that tends to be tossed around. There are a few people feel are Chekhov's gun that should fire in upcoming books, but again I really think you should read Oathbringer first. 

On 6/30/2019 at 4:59 AM, Long try said:

Hm, I do recall but overlooked this part. Is the soulcasted wood lighter than every existing kinds or is it just as light as the lightest natural wood?

That I would need to dig to check. I know if a soulcaster just soulcasts without an intention of a particular thing, it will default to a standard "ideal" version. But once a material is discovered or developed, a soulcaster can learn to reproduce it. 

On 6/30/2019 at 4:59 AM, Long try said:

Eshonai overpowered Adolin during the fight. He only won because he outsmarted her. The Parshendi armor was barely damaged, so it was far from a dead Plate. Moreover, we need to keep in mind that inside it is a Stormform, the most powerful ever. Yet he still expected her to be dead, meaning the fall was beyond lethal.

Again, you really really really should read Oathbringer. If you pay attention it shows how/why and it makes sense for the context. 

On 6/30/2019 at 4:59 AM, Long try said:

Wow that's superb! As an astronomy lover (but still newbie), my respect for him jumped.

That was one of the instances where he had to do the "wavy fingers" magic moment. If red shift was included regarding his mistborn series, the power users would fry and die. So he had to acknowledge the issue, but disregard it, to get it to still work. So he does his best, but no one is perfect. One can only do so much. 

On 6/30/2019 at 4:59 AM, Long try said:

 

Well, if 9 people agree on X and 1 disagrees, that doesn't mean X is objectively true  Still, I admit that we live in a world where the subjectively majority is correct, usually just by brute strength. Moreover, it's hard to find out what really is objectively true in a literary work by an author's imagination. To do that we Sandersonites will need to agree on some basic premises, such as using logic is the right way, or accept parallel correlations between the Cosmere and our universe's laws, or between Roshar's people and Earth's society.

But at the same token just because 1 person disagrees, does not mean that person is correct, nor does it mean a fact cannot still be a fact despite a dissenting minority. Not saying that applies to you in this case. Just saying there are still people that believe the earth is flat, and that evolution isn't a thing. That doesn't negate the veracity of those facts. 

 

On 6/30/2019 at 4:59 AM, Long try said:

 

I don't want to pick up an argument because the statement was made by "those people", but aren't there times like when Adolin used 'dirty strikes' to win a duel in seconds, or when he considered killing Sadeas right there when they watched the Highstorm with Shallan? They described Adolin's gradual change from a showboy to a more calculating man, ready to use not-so-honor force when necessary. It's ok to miss a cue, but for a ton of people to miss several, I guess they must have overlooked things.

And I believe Scion's point is that is great that you noticed it, but others did not and those individuals felt it was inconsistent with the character. Just like in this thread there are things you did not notice causing you to feel something is consistent that others did notice and feel it is not. I believe what it comes down to, is what do you now do with this new information? Personally I very much suggest you read Oathbringer lol.  

On 6/30/2019 at 4:59 AM, Long try said:

The community has done an excellent job at enlightening me at several points (BTW, thank you my fellow Sandersonites! <3), but for a few I still keep my view. The paragraphs you quoted are just expansions of those points. As you can see, they haven't even been able to answer some of my arguments (bridges can't deal with significantly different chasm side heights, or the procrastination psychology), so I guess there are some inconsistency problems still wandering around.

Could you expand on what you feel is still inconsistent regarding the bridges and procrastination? If I recall correctly, there are posts from Sanderson where he goes into detail about the bridges being far longer than the gap they need to traverse to allow for it to be slid across and in the novels they do mention how they frequently have to go out of their way to scout and find chasms that are traversable, resulting in what could have been a straight line ending up being a zig zag that even has to double back on itself just to find a path that will work with the bridges. It is that slowing down, that is why Sadeas uses bridge crews to make up for the delay. 

[Long try]

Well, thank you guys (and gals)! After @Pathfinder's 3-fold urge to read OB, I feel the need to get up-to-date with at least tSA, not to mention other series, before asking more questions. Because about half of what I asked here can be explained by reading more books. 

So let's put those 9 kind-of-objective questions aside, and I'm going to ask you for your opinion. This 1 is subjective.

10. Do you feel at some times the plot is forced? Examples:

A. When Kaladin used "Elhokar is Dalinar's Tien" for his reasoning. There's not much in common between his love for brother and Dal-El relation. His was mutual, unconditional, and beneficial in that he protected Tien and the brother cheered him up. I doubt Elhokar loved his uncle; and Dalinar was only fond of him because the king reminded him of truly loved bro; and the relationship is a bit oppressive, so can't be really productive.

B. When Adolin saw Kal running to the bridge from the corner of his eyes and right away ran up to his father. Really, I can't point my finger to an exact spot, but the whole scene does not make sense. A very distinct feeling that it's forced so that Kaladin ended up with Shallan down there.

[Pathfinder]

4 hours ago, Long try said:

Well, thank you guys (and gals)! After @Pathfinder's 3-fold urge to read OB, I feel the need to get up-to-date with at least tSA, not to mention other series, before asking more questions. Because about half of what I asked here can be explained by reading more books. 

So let's put those 9 kind-of-objective questions aside, and I'm going to ask you for your opinion. This 1 is subjective.

10. Do you feel at some times the plot is forced? Examples:

A. When Kaladin used "Elhokar is Dalinar's Tien" for his reasoning. There's not much in common between his love for brother and Dal-El relation. His was mutual, unconditional, and beneficial in that he protected Tien and the brother cheered him up. I doubt Elhokar loved his uncle; and Dalinar was only fond of him because the king reminded him of truly loved bro; and the relationship is a bit oppressive, so can't be really productive.

Lol, well if there is anything this thread taught me, it is how much stuff Oathbringer answers lol. So guess what? There are scenes in oathbringer that delve further in the Elhokar and Dalinar relationship that could cause you to draw more parallels between Dalinar/Elhokar and Kaladin/Tien, including something very very big they both share, but I won't spoil. Hmmm, just so after you read Oathbringer you will know what I am referring to, I will spoiler tag that as well

Oathbringer spoilers

Spoiler

 

Both Elhokar and Tien were becoming lightweavers and died before they could further their oaths. Both were thrown into situations they were out of their depths, and manipulated by those around them. Both relied on their version of a strong figure to protect them, only to when they finally tried to grow out, their future's were unfortunately cut short. 

 

Quote

B. When Adolin saw Kal running to the bridge from the corner of his eyes and right away ran up to his father. Really, I can't point my finger to an exact spot, but the whole scene does not make sense. A very distinct feeling that it's forced so that Kaladin ended up with Shallan down there.

Personally makes sense to me. Kaladin, the guard of Dalinar notices a threat and runs towards it. Adolin son of Dalinar, notices the guard noticing a threat, and given his father has a giant bullseye on his father's head, runs to his father assuming he is the target (which he was). Assassination attempt revealed too soon results in bungled attempt that not only takes out Kaladin and Shallan, but a whole bunch of officers and retainers that were also on the bridge. So it was not purely Shallan and Kaladin that fell. They were just the only two to survive (thanks to ole stormlight). But that is my own opinion. If it doesn't sit right with you, then I respect your view. 

Edited July 2, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

9 hours ago, Long try said:

A. When Kaladin used "Elhokar is Dalinar's Tien" for his reasoning. There's not much in common between his love for brother and Dal-El relation. His was mutual, unconditional, and beneficial in that he protected Tien and the brother cheered him up. I doubt Elhokar loved his uncle; and Dalinar was only fond of him because the king reminded him of truly loved bro; and the relationship is a bit oppressive, so can't be really productive.

Elhokar has a complicated relationship with his uncle.  Think about it.  They both know that Dalinar would make a better king(say what you will about Elhokar but he is not that stupid) but they both also know that Elhokar has to be king.  This puts a strain on their relationship.  Dalinar realy does love Elhokar and says as much several times and Elhokar does love his uncle(he is just paranoid and not particularly good at expressing himself).  This is also Kaladin we are talking about.  Everything is about Tein when he is concerned.  This is my interpretation.

9 hours ago, Long try said:

B. When Adolin saw Kal running to the bridge from the corner of his eyes and right away ran up to his father. Really, I can't point my finger to an exact spot, but the whole scene does not make sense. A very distinct feeling that it's forced so that Kaladin ended up with Shallan down there.

I think @Pathfinder did this one fairly well.  Kaladin's job as a bodyguard is eliminating threats but he is also trained as a soldier more then anything.  His natural inclination is to tun to and eliminate his target.  Adolin is used to fighting with his father.  Throughout WoK the two of them expend a lot of effort guarding each other on the battlefield so his natral inclination is to run to is battle partner.

[Long try]

Oh it's OB again, lol. OK then, I only have this kind of argument:

A. Being Sanderson who created the series, or being us who read 2 or 3 tSA books, we're having the privilege of possessing omniscience. We know every PoV and every scene, every relation. It's easy for us to deduce Dal-El relationship with all the info, but not so for Kaladin. Remember, he joined the bodyguards lately and only witnessed some interactions between the pair during a few meetings, banquets and trivial gatherings. Aside from that, Elhokar stayed in his own palace while Dalinar had all the Sadeas, politics, countdown and Navani courting to worry about. So if we stood in Kal's shoes, we'd find big trouble coming to such conclusion. Maybe Brandon made a mistake & didn't count for this PoV. Sometimes being omnipotent can have a drawback.

B. IIRC the sequence happened like this: Kal suddenly remembered who the engineer was. He began running toward the bridge. Adolin saw him. He turned 180 degrees & ran too. Kaladin shouted about stopping the assassin. The engineer pushed the button. Adolin jumped. The bridge fell. Kal reached near Shallan when everyone lost footing.

Since I can scarcely remember the details of the scene and/or Brandon didn't describe the surroundings, all of the below are speculations.

- 1st, the distances of everything are short, because this is a chasm bridge, after all. So as Kaladin shouted, Dalinar should have heard as well.

- 2nd, the lines connecting Dalinar with Adolin/Shallan, and A/S with Kaladin must be, or nearly aligned. Because Kal ran toward Dalinar and ended up with Shallan. That means Adolin's body was heading toward Kaladin on the other side of the chasm, and his face was maybe turned to Shallan. OK, now he saw from the corner of his eyes that the captain was running toward him, and immediately turn around as if running away from a chaser. Hmm... if I were Adolin, I'd be like a deer in headlight. Being in female courting mode, my brain would need a moment to assess what that sudden hostile burst of action toward me means. Then, after making sure it is not directed at me, I'd need some other time to bring everything together before deciding on a course of reaction.

Or, maybe that Adolin-kun is much smarter than me, which is a sad revelation...

Edited July 4, 2019 by Long try

[Karger he/him]

3 hours ago, Long try said:

Being in female courting mode, my brain would need a moment to assess what that sudden hostile burst of action toward me means. Then, after making sure it is not directed at me, I'd need some other time to bring everything together before deciding on a course of reaction.

 

This one is the easiest.  Adolin is a soldier.  In hostile situations like the war taking an action is often more important then taking the right action.  Doing something, anything is often smarter then waiting around so you can figure out what is going on.

3 hours ago, Long try said:

A. Being Sanderson who created the series, or being us who read 2 or 3 tSA books, we're having the privilege of possessing omniscience. We know every PoV and every scene, every relation. It's easy for us to deduce Dal-El relationship with all the info, but not so for Kaladin. Remember, he joined the bodyguards lately and only witnessed some interactions between the pair during a few meetings, banquets and trivial gatherings. Aside from that, Elhokar stayed in his own palace while Dalinar had all the Sadeas, politics, countdown and Navani courting to worry about. So if we stood in Kal's shoes, we'd find big trouble coming to such conclusion. Maybe Brandon made a mistake & didn't count for this PoV. Sometimes being omnipotent can have a drawback.

Kaladin knows that Dalinar's relationship with his nephew is important.  Dalinar keeps going out of his way to make his nephew safe.  He deduces why because he knows about Gavilar's assassination and because he also failed to protect his brother.  Knowing this he figures out that to Dalinar Elhokar is a chance at redemption.  None of this takes more information then Kaladin has.

[Pathfinder]

7 hours ago, Long try said:

Oh it's OB again, lol. OK then, I only have this kind of argument:

A. Being Sanderson who created the series, or being us who read 2 or 3 tSA books, we're having the privilege of possessing omniscience. We know every PoV and every scene, every relation. It's easy for us to deduce Dal-El relationship with all the info, but not so for Kaladin. Remember, he joined the bodyguards lately and only witnessed some interactions between the pair during a few meetings, banquets and trivial gatherings. Aside from that, Elhokar stayed in his own palace while Dalinar had all the Sadeas, politics, countdown and Navani courting to worry about. So if we stood in Kal's shoes, we'd find big trouble coming to such conclusion. Maybe Brandon made a mistake & didn't count for this PoV. Sometimes being omnipotent can have a drawback.

Again, at the end of the day, if something doesn't work for you, then that's ok, it happens. Everyone's got their opinion. Now having said that, Dalinar defends Elhokar to anyone. Even Elhokar's own mother. Before the climatic moment, Dalinar talks to Kaladin about Roshone remember? Kaladin asks him about it, and Dalinar explains the situation. That is the moment that Kaladin thinks back to to realize Elhokar is Dalinar's Tien. That for me is enough. Re-read the scene where Dalinar and Kaladin talk about it. If after re-reading that scene, it still doesn't work for you, then to each their own. 

7 hours ago, Long try said:

B. IIRC the sequence happened like this: Kal suddenly remembered who the engineer was. He began running toward the bridge. Adolin saw him. He turned 180 degrees & ran too. Kaladin shouted about stopping the assassin. The engineer pushed the button. Adolin jumped. The bridge fell. Kal reached near Shallan when everyone lost footing.

Since I can scarcely remember the details of the scene and/or Brandon didn't describe the surroundings, all of the below are speculations.

- 1st, the distances of everything are short, because this is a chasm bridge, after all. So as Kaladin shouted, Dalinar should have heard as well.

- 2nd, the lines connecting Dalinar with Adolin/Shallan, and A/S with Kaladin must be, or nearly aligned. Because Kal ran toward Dalinar and ended up with Shallan. That means Adolin's body was heading toward Kaladin on the other side of the chasm, and his face was maybe turned to Shallan. OK, now he saw from the corner of his eyes that the captain was running toward him, and immediately turn around as if running away from a chaser. Hmm... if I were Adolin, I'd be like a deer in headlight. Being in female courting mode, my brain would need a moment to assess what that sudden hostile burst of action toward me means. Then, after making sure it is not directed at me, I'd need some other time to bring everything together before deciding on a course of reaction.

Or, maybe that Adolin-kun is much smarter than me, which is a sad revelation...

So the scene is Words of Radiance page 815. The order of events are Dalinar made it to the other side, and is talking to Kaladin. The carpenter on the other side calls to Dalinar. Dalinar begins to walk back while Kaladin remains. Dalinar passes Adolin and Shallan. Dalinar continues to walk when Kaladin realizes he recognizes the carpenter. Kaladin begins running. Adolin notices Kaladin running and he spins around and begins running too while searching for whatever danger Kaladin spotted. His father is the target of Sadeas, so it would make sense for him to run towards Dalinar. Shallan is at the center of the bridge when Kaladin passes her which means he is about half way. The carpenter then grabs the lever. Kaladin yells to Adolin that it is the carpenter. Meanwhile Dalinar gets distracted by the horns that sounded that the enemy was spotted. At that point Adolin reached Dalinar (Adolin is in his shardplate, so he would be moving faster). Then the bridge lurches and collapses. That sequence of events works for me. If it doesn't for you, to each their own. 

[Long try]

On 7/4/2019 at 8:53 PM, Karger said:

Dalinar keeps going out of his way to make his nephew safe.

You're right. Kal was there when Dalinar chose to face the assassin for the 1st time.

 

On 7/5/2019 at 0:46 AM, Pathfinder said:

The order of events are Dalinar made it to the other side, and is talking to Kaladin. The carpenter on the other side calls to Dalinar. Dalinar begins to walk back while Kaladin remains. Dalinar passes Adolin and Shallan. Dalinar continues to walk when Kaladin realizes he recognizes the carpenter. Kaladin begins running. Adolin notices Kaladin running and he spins around and begins running too while searching for whatever danger Kaladin spotted. His father is the target of Sadeas, so it would make sense for him to run towards Dalinar. Shallan is at the center of the bridge when Kaladin passes her which means he is about half way. The carpenter then grabs the lever. Kaladin yells to Adolin that it is the carpenter. Meanwhile Dalinar gets distracted by the horns that sounded that the enemy was spotted. At that point Adolin reached Dalinar (Adolin is in his shardplate, so he would be moving faster). Then the bridge lurches and collapses.

Yes! Some minor yet critical points were missed by my recollection when compared to yours. Dalinar was indeed distracted (again, what a coincidence ). Adolin, as @Karger pointed out, had reflexes of a soldier and moved 1st, justification later. I concede.