Using astral projection as transportation

[Calderis he/him]

There have been bounty hunters and trackers for centuries. 

This is not a difficult concept. 

They know what the Heralds look like. The use if the Cognitive Realm. Is just an additional tool. 

The most difficult aspect of finding the Heralds at this point is that the entire world is a war zone. 

[Karger he/him]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

There have been bounty hunters and trackers for centuries. 

This is not a difficult concept. 

They know what the Heralds look like. The use if the Cognitive Realm. Is just an additional tool. 

The most difficult aspect of finding the Heralds at this point is that the entire world is a war zone. 

Sure but bounty hunters generally have some idea of where to look or at least a region.  Most Heralds could be anywhere as far as Jasnah knows at the time.  So unless I am missing something.  Your saying that Ivory wants Jasnah to go into Shadesmar and talk to people about sending ships into a continent sized ocean in the hope of finding 10 people among the several millions that are there.

[Pathfinder]

21 minutes ago, Karger said:

Sure but bounty hunters generally have some idea of where to look or at least a region.  Most Heralds could be anywhere as far as Jasnah knows at the time.  So unless I am missing something.  Your saying that Ivory wants Jasnah to go into Shadesmar and talk to people about sending ships into a continent sized ocean in the hope of finding 10 people among the several millions that are there.

But she does have an idea where they are. Taln in the insane asylum till Amaram stole him away. Nale was spotted operating in Azir. Taravangian told Dalinar he was working with a Herald. Jasnah knew enough to hang out around the oathgate with the sketches of the heralds and spotted Shalash. Again, if it doesn't feel like enough to you, then to each their own, but as I said we were able to manage in the real world all this time, I do not see any difference on Roshar. 

 

also sorry to get overly technical, but roshar is an inland sea in the cognitive realm. not an ocean

 

Edited May 7, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

But she does have an idea where they are. Taln in the insane asylum till Amaram stole him away. Nale was spotted operating in Azir. Taravangian told Dalinar he was working with a Herald. Jasnah knew enough to hang out around the oathgate with the sketches of the heralds and spotted Shalash. Again, if it doesn't feel like enough to you, then to each their own, but as I said we were able to manage in the real world all this time, I do not see any difference on Roshar. 

She only found these tips out after Ivory suggested the search so clearly he had something else in mind.

[Pathfinder]

On 5/6/2019 at 4:40 PM, Karger said:

Perhaps this is how elsecalling works?  Ivory mentions searching shadesmar for the Herald's souls.  Unless these souls are clearly visible from one area this implies that an elsecaller can move their astral body around in shadesmar a bit.  If this is true then they could transition to the cognitive location of almost anywhere.

So going back to your original premise, since using an intelligence network is not plausible to you, let us break down your theory. If I understand correctly you posit that Jasnah does the "astral projection" version of elsecalling. She then zips around as that astral projection to locate the heralds. Below is a list of problems with this:

1. "Astral projection" elsecalling leaves your physical body vulnerable to attack

2. "Astral projection" elsecalling leaves your cognitive self vulnerable to attack (confirmed via Jasnah in book)

3. Your response to one of the arguments was:

"Your saying that Ivory wants Jasnah to go into Shadesmar and talk to people about sending ships into a continent sized ocean in the hope of finding 10 people among the several millions that are there"

How is Jasnah zipping around as an astral projection by herself not facing that same problem?

4. it isn't astral projection as in you are ethereal and can just fly around without risk. In this "continent sized ocean" you refer to, unless Jasnah has a boat, she will need constant stormlight to form a raft from the beads. In order to zip around as you posit, she would need massive amounts of stormlight, when they are already low on stormlight resources at Urithiru. Otherwise Jasnah will sink amongst the gemstone waters and die, leaving her body brain dead (also confirmed via WoB, as well as Shallan multiple times throughout the books)

5. if you are positing that through "astral projection" elsecalling, jasnah can just decide to "project" herself to lets say azir, when she is in alethkar, even if that was possible (which I do not believe is the case, but lets give it the benefit of the doubt), you still run into the same problem mentioned in number 3. How is she to know where to pop up to look in that "continent sized ocean" without any information to coordinate? Why pick there instead of anywhere else?

 

So for those 5 reasons, I do not think your theory is plausible nor possible. But all we can do at this stage is RAFO

 

Edited May 8, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

5 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

1. "Astral projection" elsecalling leaves your physical body vulnerable to attack

Considering her current location is probably the most secure on the planet I think that risk is negligible.

5 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

2. "Astral projection" elsecalling leaves your cognitive self vulnerable to attack (confirmed via Jasnah in book)

Elsecallers are the Radiant masters of the far realm of the spren.  Also this is Jasnah we are talking about.  Jasnah can handle herself and then some.

5 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

How is Jasnah zipping around as an astral projection by herself not facing that same problem?

Jasnah can move around much faster assuming her form in shadesmar is in fact ethereal and she is looking for several extremely unique individuals. Have you ever tried flipping through several hundred or thousand channels on a television?  It is certainly possible.  Doing so every day in a systematic search might actually yield something.

5 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

4. it isn't astral projection as in you are ethereal and can just fly around without risk. In this "continent sized ocean" you refer to, unless Jasnah has a boat, she will need constant stormlight to form a raft from the beads. In order to zip around as you posit, she would need massive amounts of stormlight, when they are already low on stormlight resources at Urithiru. Otherwise Jasnah will sink amongst the gemstone waters and die, leaving her body brain dead (also confirmed via WoB, as well as Shallan multiple times throughout the books)

Stormlight is renewed by the time Jasnah gets back with Highstorms coming regularly.  Jasnah is much more capable then Shallan and is almost certainly more efficient.  She can do more with less.

Jasnah only needs a split second with each person.  She could likely work her way through many thousands of individuals every day.

[Calderis he/him]

@Karger we've no evidence to suggest that the "soul bubble" projection is "ethereal" or that it can in any way move quicker than normal.

It's a production of Transformation, not Transportation.

We don't even know if what your suggesting is remotely possible, much less plausible. 

Edited May 8, 2019 by Calderis

[Karger he/him]

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

 we've no evidence to suggest that the "soul bubble" projection is "ethereal" or that it dn in any way move quicker than normal.

It's a production of Transformation, not Transportation.

We don't even know if what your suggesting is remotely possible, much less plausible. 

Hence the term "theory."  I am proposing the Elsecaller resonance.  I could be wrong but it seems logical to me.

[Pathfinder]

8 minutes ago, Karger said:

Considering her current location is probably the most secure on the planet I think that risk is negligible.

She is paranoid enough of her well being in Urithiru that she made a point to chose rooms blocked off from the balconies and even stuffed the vents. Mraize was able to infiltrate Ialai's personal guard and get into Urithiru with everyone else. The Ghostbloods want Jasnah dead. Jasnah has said Shallan using astral projection soulcasting is dangerous. Ivory mentioned the pain spren who "harm more". So no she would not be safe. 

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Elsecallers are the Radiant masters of the far realm of the spren.  Also this is Jasnah we are talking about.  Jasnah can handle herself and then some.

This is a broad assertion that proves nothing

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Jasnah can move around much faster assuming her form in shadesmar is in fact ethereal and she is looking for several extremely unique individuals. Have you ever tried flipping through several hundred or thousand channels on a television?  It is certainly possible.  Doing so every day in a systematic search might actually yield something.

It is not actual ethereal. Per WoB, the body is formed from investiture. A "bubble" in his words. So the investiture bubble body is physical in the cognitive realm and can die. It can be submerged under the gemstones, and suffocate. Regardless, even if it worked as you posit (which per WoB it does not), she would still need to pop wherever, search, then pop out. How many square feet could a pop in, search, and pop out cover? How long would each situation cover? You still run into the same exact issues you claim make an intelligence network impossible to track someone. 

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Stormlight is renewed by the time Jasnah gets back with Highstorms coming regularly.  Jasnah is much more capable then Shallan and is almost certainly more efficient.  She can do more with less.

Urithiru is above the highstorms. It was just after the Weeping. They were low stormlight and had to bribe a highprince still at the shattered plains with awful inflation rates to exchange for infused gems. 

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Jasnah only needs a split second with each person.  She could likely work her way through many thousands of individuals every day.

No, that is not how it works. 

Edited May 8, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Pathfinder]

Boskone 54 (Feb. 17, 2017)
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Bromo_Sapien

When somebody travels into the Cognitive Realm, what happens to their physical self? To their body? Like Elsecalling or through a Shardpool?

Brandon Sanderson

Well it depends on the way they’re doing it. The two ways you’ve mentioned transport the physical body. It’s actually creating a rift and slipping them through. But there are other ways that you kind of peek in, where your body’s saying it’s a little more astral projection-y in those cases.

Bromo_Sapien

So their physical self would also be in the Cognitive Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Bromo_Sapien

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

Which is weird.

Bromo_Sapien

As opposed to somebody like Kelsier who died and no longer has a physical self.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, right. Or when Shallan is Soulcasting and peeking in, and things like this. It can still be dangerous, because what’s happening is that little soul bubble there that’s manifesting into a version of your soul and then things can get at it in different ways and stuff. So... But yes, going in physically means you just pop between realms, and yeah, yeah…

Bromo_Sapien

And when they leave the Cognitive Realm their Physical self just leaves the Cognitive Realm the same...

Brandon Sanderson

Yep, mhm, yep.

Bromo_Sapien

Perfect.

Brandon Sanderson

Basically you’re transferring into Investiture and popping out of Investiture, so...

[Karger he/him]

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

No, that is not how it works. 

Care to elaborate?

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

It is not actual ethereal. Per WoB, the body is formed from investiture. A "bubble" in his words. So the investiture bubble body is physical in the cognitive realm and can die. Regardless, even if it worked as you posit (which per WoB it does not), she would still need to pop wherever, search, then pop out. How many square feet could a pop in, search, and pop out cover? How long would each situation cover? You still run into the same exact issues you claim make an intelligence network impossible to track someone. 

She can use stormliight to keep herself from drowning or from letting anything in.  I also don't think Ivory meant right now.  They could have waited until immediately after a storm when light would not have been an issue.  She is moving the bubble itself with transportation.  She is not making multiple trips to and from the CR.

[Pathfinder]

47 minutes ago, Karger said:

Care to elaborate?

She can use stormliight to keep herself from drowning or from letting anything in.  I also don't think Ivory meant right now.  They could have waited until immediately after a storm when light would not have been an issue.  She is moving the bubble itself with transportation.  She is not making multiple trips to and from the CR.

The lack of stormlight was an issue during the entire novel. It only changed when Dalinar realized he could bring the realms together and recharge them. That was stated multiple times throughout the novel. They were never not short of stormlight

Way of Kings page 969

Shallan fell, dropping into that sea of dark glass beads. She struggled, trying to stay at the surface. She managed it for a moment. Then something tugged on her leg, pulling her down. She screamed, slipping beneath the surface, tiny beads of glass filling her mouth. She panicked. She was going to-

The beads above her parted. Those beneath her surged, bearing her upward, out to where someone stood, hand outstretched. Jasnah, back to the black sky, face lit by nearby hovering flames. Jasnah grasped Shallan's hand, pulling her upward, onto something. A raft. Made from the beads of glass. They seemed to obey Jasnah's will.

"Idiot girl" Jasnah said, waving. The sea of beads to the left split, and the raft lurched, bearing them sideways toward a few flames of light. Jasnah shoved Shallan into one of the small flames, and she fell backward off the raft. And hit the floor of the alcove. Jasnah sat where she had been, eyes closed. A moment later, she opened them, giving Shallan an angry look.

"Idiot girl!" Jasnah repeated "You have no idea how dangerous that was. Visiting Shadesmar with only a single dim sphere? idiot!"

 

So lets review the scene. It involves both Jasnah and Shallan employing the "astral projection" version. When Shallan entered shadesmar, she had weight, heft because she sank beneath the stones just like in Oathbringer when she was physically there. Just like in Oathbringer when she was physically there the gemstones tried to get in her throat, and suffocate her. Just like in Oathbringer when she was physical there were creatures moving/swimming among the stones. In this case, one tried to pull her further down. The investiture bubble version is not directly connected to the flame. In other words investiture bubble moves, flame remains. Unguarded, and vulnerable. In order to reform the investiture bubble elsewhere because as I have just shown, you cannot just phase through objects (Shallan was standing on the obsidian land mass that is the water when the Winds Pleasure was attacked and she astral projected to shadesmar then as well as standing on the obsidian water when she was physically present in oathbringer), you would need to be able to project it elsewhere while your flame remains by your body alone and vulnerable.

Now instead of me posting quote after quote, can you provide a quote, or WoB that backs up how you interpret it works? As I have provided some, I think it is only fair to request the same of you. 

Edited May 8, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

5 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

So lets review the scene. It involves both Jasnah and Shallan employing the "astral projection" version. When Shallan entered shadesmar, she had weight, heft because she sank beneath the stones just like in Oathbringer when she was physically there. Just like in Oathbringer when she was physically there the gemstones tried to get in her throat, and suffocate her. Just like in Oathbringer when she was physical there were creatures moving/swimming among the stones. In this case, one tried to pull her further down. The investiture bubble version is not directly connected to the flame. In other words investiture bubble moves, flame remains. Unguarded, and vulnerable. In order to reform the investiture bubble elsewhere because as I have just shown, you cannot just phase through objects (Shallan was standing on the obsidian land mass that is the water when the Winds Pleasure was attacked and she astral projected to shadesmar then as well as standing on the obsidian water when she was physically present in oathbringer), you would need to be able to project it elsewhere while your flame remains by your body alone and vulnerable.

I do not think that Shallan's experience can be held as typical as she clearly had no idea what she was doing.  Ivory says "We must search shadesamr" because only Jasnah and Ivory are present and Ivory knows for reasons we have already outlined that conducting a search personally via going to the CR and looking at the different souls, or talking to other spren is not practical.  They must have some way of searching it themselves.  I am trying to come up with a theory that fits these facts.

[Pathfinder]

11 hours ago, Karger said:

I do not think that Shallan's experience can be held as typical as she clearly had no idea what she was doing.  Ivory says "We must search shadesamr" because only Jasnah and Ivory are present and Ivory knows for reasons we have already outlined that conducting a search personally via going to the CR and looking at the different souls, or talking to other spren is not practical.  They must have some way of searching it themselves.  I am trying to come up with a theory that fits these facts.

Jasnah experienced the same exact thing the first time she soulcasted and she was "astral projecting" then too. I still request you provide some WoB or quotes that support being able to form an "astral projection" miles from your body, being able to scan the entire area in seconds, pop out and do it all over again with minimal stormlight while phasing through objects. Please show me some references that show "astral projection" soulcaster style phases through objects. Please show me some references that show distance "astral projection", and please show me some references that demonstrate scanning in seconds. I have provided plenty of references but none apply for you, so could you provide the ones that do apply for you? Ivory saying one sentence that does not indicate any function whatsoever is not evidence. Otherwise I guess we will have to RAFO. 

[Karger he/him]

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

form an "astral projection" miles from your body

If you can form and move an "astral projection" miles from your body then the rest is relatively easy except for the stormlight efficiency which we know increases as ideals progress.

[Calderis he/him]

And as I keep saying, the "Astral projection" is, by all evidence, a use of the surge of Transformation not Transportation. Why would it be able to appear elsewhere? 

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

If you can form and move an "astral projection" miles from your body then the rest is relatively easy except for the stormlight efficiency which we know increases as ideals progress.

And where in the books have we seen someone move their "astral projection" miles from their body? Where in WoB has it been mentioned to be possible? Other than one sentence from Ivory, is there anything else in any of the books or WoB that lead you to believe it works this way? I am totally open to theories. I have quite a few theories of my own with nothing concrete to back them up and I readily admit to it (my theory on Jasnah having schizophrenia, my theory that Sja-anat can corrupt spren that make up plate (which I readily acknowledge is not confirmed that spren make up plate, which is why it is a theory without anything concrete), and I think I have one or two more I am forgetting). So I am asking, do you have anything concrete that you can present that leads you to believe this?

Edited May 9, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

55 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

And where in the books have we seen someone move their "astral projection" miles from their body? Where in WoB has it been mentioned to be possible? Other than one sentence from Ivory, is there anything else in any of the books or WoB that lead you to believe it works this way? I am totally open to theories. I have quite a few theories of my own with nothing concrete to back them up and I readily admit to it (my theory on Jasnah having schizophrenia, my theory that Sja-anat can corrupt spren that make up plate (which I readily acknowledge is not confirmed that spren make up plate, which is why it is a theory without anything concrete), and I think I have one or two more I am forgetting). So I am asking, do you have anything concrete that you can present that leads you to believe this?

No.  I just can't think of any other reasonable way to interpret Ivory's statement.

[Pathfinder]

23 minutes ago, Karger said:

No.  I just can't think of any other reasonable way to interpret Ivory's statement.

So the reason nothing else can be plausible to you is because of the one sentence Ivory said? Ok, then like I said, guess we will read and find out. 

[Karger he/him]

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

So the reason nothing else can be plausible to you is because of the one sentence Ivory said? Ok, then like I said, guess we will read and find out. 

Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.

[retrorocket1]

14 hours ago, Karger said:

Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.

I know sherlock holmes said this but this actually ONLY works if you start with EVERY possibility. It just isn't realistic to start with every possibility so it is very likely some ideas fall through the cracks. I personally am wondering if elsecallers need to pick up beads to understand what they are or if they just need to be in the vicinity.(no evidence for this but I was just trying to come up with something the transportation surge could possibly do other than just physical transport to the cognitive realm.)

[Agent34]

The Oathgates work via Transportation so teleportation through some mechanic or another is definitely possible. No idea if it'd work by flitting about the Cognitive Realm as has been suggested though, I'd say no though,

Edited May 10, 2019 by Agent34

[Calderis he/him]

59 minutes ago, Agent34 said:

The Oathgates work via Transportation so teleportation through some mechanic or another is definitely possible. No idea if it'd work by flitting about the Cognitive Realm as has been suggested though, I'd say no though,

Agreed. I think it would bypass the Cognitive completely. It probably could be used in the Cognitive as well, but it should be moving you as a whole, not just a projected manifestation. 

[Pathfinder]

18 hours ago, Karger said:

Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.

And we disagree on what is impossible. 

[Karger he/him]

56 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

And we disagree on what is impossible. 

So lets keep going.  What other possibilities remain?

Edited May 10, 2019 by Karger