Mushroom Catalog he/him Posted May 1, 2019 Posted May 1, 2019 I have wanted to know how bendalloy feruchemy works exactly for a while, since we did nutrition in my high school bio class. The coppermind says that: A bendalloy Ferring is known as a Subsumer. Bendalloy is used to store nutrition and calories. While filling a bendalloymind, a Subsumer is able to eat large quantities of food without becoming full. Tapping such a metalmind will allow the user to go without food. A separate bendalloymind can be used to store fluid intake. If bendalloy just stores nutrition, would eating a donut and storing be the equivalent of storing a donut in the metalmind? What happens then, if you store a salad in afterwards? Do they mix? If you tap it, can you choose or do you just get an equal mix based on amounts? Or does bendalloy store the different components in food? I don't know a ton about it, just high school bio, but food is made of lots of different kinds of nutrients, each used for different things. Does bendalloy store it based of these nutrients? Would pulling from this give an equal amount of each? Or, does bendalloy work like tin minds, where you store a separate sense in each, or in this case, store a different nutrient in each? Any other possibilities I missed or do we already know this and I've been wondering for no reason? 1
+Keeper Exile Posted May 1, 2019 Posted May 1, 2019 Note that I am not a premier authority when it comes to the complex workings of metabolism, cellular respiration, or any other related process, but here are my thoughts. I think that a bendalloy ferring, instead of storing actual nutrients, stores the "feeling" of being hungry or thirst. Say, for example, that someone eats three days worth of food in an hour, storing tow days worth in a bendalloymind. Then, they can go for two days without food, drawing upon the "anti-hunger" (super scientific words going on here) to keep themselves from being hungry. I do not know if someone can store physical fat or the like in a bendalloymind, so it is possible that only drawing upon nutrition from a bendalloymind might have bad effects, but nothing I have said is verified, so this is just me speculating. Sorry if I am totally confused about the physics of this.
Mushroom Catalog he/him Posted May 1, 2019 Author Posted May 1, 2019 14 hours ago, Keeper Exile said: I think that a bendalloy ferring, instead of storing actual nutrients, stores the "feeling" of being hungry or thirst. Say, for example, that someone eats three days worth of food in an hour, storing tow days worth in a bendalloymind. Then, they can go for two days without food, drawing upon the "anti-hunger" (super scientific words going on here) to keep themselves from being hungry. I didn't even think of that! That would make more sense than storing a physical thing, since most of the other metals store more abstract stuff (strength, memories, senses) and this would fit in with that. This would make sense that foods that "fill" people up more would store more, and vice versa. 15 hours ago, Keeper Exile said: I do not know if someone can store physical fat or the like in a bendalloymind, so it is possible that only drawing upon nutrition from a bendalloymind might have bad effects, but nothing I have said is verified, so this is just me speculating. Yeah... I don't think anybody does know. All of the questions about bendalloy tend to be speed bubble stuff.
Scion of the Mists Posted May 1, 2019 Posted May 1, 2019 16 hours ago, Keeper Exile said: I think that a bendalloy ferring, instead of storing actual nutrients, stores the "feeling" of being hungry or thirst. Say, for example, that someone eats three days worth of food in an hour, storing tow days worth in a bendalloymind. Then, they can go for two days without food, drawing upon the "anti-hunger" (super scientific words going on here) to keep themselves from being hungry. I don't know whether or not it stores the actual nutrients, but I think it has to store more than just the feeling of hunger or thirst. The description sounds like you can actually go longer without food/water than would otherwise be possible. If the metalmind only stored the feeling or (lack of) thirst, you'd still die after three days without water.
Karger he/him Posted May 1, 2019 Posted May 1, 2019 As far as I understand the Cosmere you have things backwards. The metalmind does not store calories or nutrients thats just how they Scadrians understand it. It actually stores nutrition the fuel that keeps the body going. The body changes physically to reflect this but that is just accounting not actual causation.
Mushroom Catalog he/him Posted May 2, 2019 Author Posted May 2, 2019 But eating a donut and eating a salad will have different effects on the body, not just measured in nutrition. A donut is going to cause bad donut chemicals (I don't know what they're called) and some fuel for the body, while a salad is going to give fiber, vitamins, other good salad stuff, and have a more positive effect on the body. Just storing nutrition, the amount of energy the food would give, doesn't account for nutrients, which are also a big part of peoples... needed stuff? I don't know what to call it. Whatever people need. A bendalloy metalmind you propose would eliminate the harmful effects of the donut, purely giving the energy it would provide. This would mean people could eat anything, store it, and then tap it immediately and lose all of the bad parts of it. Junk food is no longer junk food. The good and bad parts of any food would be lost, which violates the whole nothing is lost or gained part of feruchemy. You see the conundrum? You eat a donut, store it. Tap it and pull out the same nutrition, but leave out the sugar, fat, harmful stuff. Rereading this, it sounds really rude. It isn't meant to be, I just don't know how to say it any other way... 1
+robardin he/him Posted May 2, 2019 Posted May 2, 2019 (edited) 8 hours ago, Mushroom Catalog said: But eating a donut and eating a salad will have different effects on the body, not just measured in nutrition. A donut is going to cause bad donut chemicals (I don't know what they're called) and some fuel for the body, while a salad is going to give fiber, vitamins, other good salad stuff, and have a more positive effect on the body. Just storing nutrition, the amount of energy the food would give, doesn't account for nutrients, which are also a big part of peoples... needed stuff? I don't know what to call it. Whatever people need. A bendalloy metalmind you propose would eliminate the harmful effects of the donut, purely giving the energy it would provide. This would mean people could eat anything, store it, and then tap it immediately and lose all of the bad parts of it. Junk food is no longer junk food. The good and bad parts of any food would be lost, which violates the whole nothing is lost or gained part of feruchemy. You see the conundrum? You eat a donut, store it. Tap it and pull out the same nutrition, but leave out the sugar, fat, harmful stuff. Rereading this, it sounds really rude. It isn't meant to be, I just don't know how to say it any other way... Interesting theory! We haven't seen any bendalloy feruchemy in use in the books yet, so we have no in-world confirmation, though. The Coppermind entry simply contains Khriss' notes from the Ars Arcanum, and who knows how much of modern food science or biology she knows are attached to terms like "calories" and "nutrition"? But the more direct observational comments are more valid: While filling a bendalloymind, a Subsumer is able to eat large quantities of food without becoming full. Tapping such a metalmind will allow the user to go without food. Personally, I would think that means the feruchemist must first digest (metabolize) the food in order to store its energy into the metalmind, except that right at the point when the metabolized energy would go into the bloodstream, it instead goes into the metalmind. That means eating a donut is not going to "store a feruchemical donut" into the bendalloymind that would give a sugar rush when tapped. Does that mean that what you call the "harmful effects" of eating a donut are paid at the time of the normal biological extraction of "nutrition" from the food (through digestion)? Well, not if you're lactose intolerant and it's a creme-filled donut or something, right? But probably, all the sugar being converted into energy could get shunted into the metalmind without the "rush", and then drawn out later more slowly. I think what is meant by "nutrition" being stored in the metalmind would be things like vitamins? Otherwise you'd need way too many metalminds. As long as you eat a reasonably balanced and nutritious diet while filling the metalminds, you'd have the same while tapping them. Heh, this would probably be a question out of left field for Brandon at a signing sometime: if you filled bendalloyminds while eating only bread and water, then tried to survive on nothing but the metalminds in a locked cell somewhere, would you get scurvy since none of the source food/drink contained Vitamic C? Edited May 2, 2019 by robardin
Mushroom Catalog he/him Posted May 2, 2019 Author Posted May 2, 2019 2 hours ago, robardin said: Personally, I would think that means the feruchemist must first digest (metabolize) the food in order to store its energy into the metalmind, except that right at the point when the metabolized energy would go into the bloodstream, it instead goes into the metalmind. That means eating a donut is not going to "store a feruchemical donut" into the bendalloymind that would give a sugar rush when tapped. Does that mean that what you call the "harmful effects" of eating a donut are paid at the time of the normal biological extraction of "nutrition" from the food (through digestion)? Well, not if you're lactose intolerant and it's a creme-filled donut or something, right? But probably, all the sugar being converted into energy could get shunted into the metalmind without the "rush", and then drawn out later more slowly. I think what is meant by "nutrition" being stored in the metalmind would be things like vitamins? Otherwise you'd need way too many metalminds. As long as you eat a reasonably balanced and nutritious diet while filling the metalminds, you'd have the same while tapping them. This would seem to make the most sense, but the vitamins and stuff are what confuse me. How do you choose to pull out a certain kind, unless it just mixes them and you tap an equal mix, or if it just stores the sugar/energy or anything else that gets converted into energy for the body, while letting the vitamins and other nutrients just enter the body.
Pathfinder Posted May 2, 2019 Posted May 2, 2019 (edited) Bendalloy works by storing calories. Same thing as with: Spoiler Lift and converting food to stormlight. fatty, or sugary foods gets her more energy faster and upfront, while breads and such take longer but give her more. So if we use the example in the spoiler tag, then difference between a donut and a salad would be the speed in which it would be stored and the amount of calories. I could have sworn there is a more explicit WoB, but I will post the one below that I found so far: Questioner [question about using Feruchemy in Dungeons and Dragons] Brandon Sanderson Why Feruchemy "works" in book terms is because it's about intrinsic trade off. We see the character pay something, so we accept when later on, they're able to do something dramatic. Narratively, their boost is "earned" in much the same way that a character "earns" their ending winning a duel by showing us through the story that they've been practicing with the sword. You need to "earn" your boosts. If I were a GM, I'd suggest that you can store attributes during one day of gameplay, to use it during another day of gameplay. -2STR for one day, +2STR for the next day. I'd say no more than -/+2 at first--with feats or Feruchemist prestige class levels allowing you to do 4 or even 6. Storing senses could be covered with WIS, and health with CON. Alternately, if you want to get into the specifics, you could try something where when you land a hit, you can use a smaller damage die (a d4 instead of d6) to "store up" strength. Then later, when you need it, you can trade in one of those stored moments (which would be capped with a maximum number that could be stored at once, to be raised by requiring you to find special metals) to raise a damage die during a climactic battle--maybe making your d6 into a d10. You could do the same thing with spot checks (take a penalty for specific rolls to be able to add to the later on.) HP could be done the same way--drop your HP for a battle to "store" then raise them for another battle. This is more of a tweak to the way the books use the magic, but the idea is to make certain your cost is still a cost. You get ahead by choosing the times to - or +, making it fun--but you are always paying a price. So the first question I'd ask myself is do I want this to be a time period thing or a specific instances thing--which would be more fun to play? Then ask is this about attributes or specific skills/hit points, etc? Define some rules, define how you get better, and then have fun within the system. Personally, I'd avoid the will save as a cost to drawing out the attribute or ability. Perhaps make it require concentration checks if you want to make it tougher--but requiring a will save to magically gain strength doesn't feel very "feruchemist" to me and downplays the real fun you could have with the character. Role playing a day spent with very low spot checks, or a terrible constitution, could be really fun. I'd also figure out if you can do some kind of "super move" with the abilities by storing up a whole lot. (Like ten units, however you decide upon them.) My take on the attributes: Iron: To be used in a role playing way, making yourself lighter or heavier, with no battle implications. Steel: Increase/decrease movement speed in a fight. OR under the effects of a "slow" spell for a day, vs under the effects of a "haste" spell. Super move: Very limited time stop. Tin: Spot Checks or WIS. Pewter: STR checks, damage die, or +/- damage to each hit. Zinc: Bonus to hit (for thinking through the situation) or bonus to initiative. (With corresponding negatives.) Brass: Specific fortitude checks.Copper: Mostly role playing. Memorize a book, or an entire library, if given time. Blank things from your mind to prevent mind reading. Bronze: Mostly role playing, with (perhaps) being able to "rest" immediately and get back any abilities that come with it. (Haven't played 5e--these were big in 4e, but don't know if they kept them.) These metals are going to be rare. Cadmium: Not having to breathe for a time could have all kinds of applications, though I'd love to hear you role play hyperventilating all day for one session. Bendalloy: Not eating and storing calories. Great for role playing.Gold: CON bonus, hit points, or something like that. Sudden healing is great for gaming. Electrum: General bonus to all skills. Chromium: Bonus or minus to any roll. The rest aren't even understood in-world, so I'd stop there. If you go all in on this, I'd say you need some kind of class built around it--perhaps a rogue or monk base, replacing their bonuses with feruchemical abilities that you gain over time. Edited May 2, 2019 by Pathfinder 1
Mushroom Catalog he/him Posted May 2, 2019 Author Posted May 2, 2019 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Bendalloy works by storing calories. Same thing as with: Hide contents Lift and converting food to stormlight. fatty, or sugary foods gets her more energy faster and upfront, while breads and such take longer but give her more. So if we use the example in the spoiler tag, then difference between a donut and a salad would be the speed in which it would be stored and the amount of calories. Yes. But there is more to food than just calories- vegetables have a lot of fiber, which is good for cleaning out your insides or something, bananas have potassium which is good for cramps( I think). Where do these go? I do understand how the energy part of the food works. Edited May 2, 2019 by Mushroom Catalog Clarification
Pathfinder Posted May 2, 2019 Posted May 2, 2019 6 minutes ago, Mushroom Catalog said: Yes. But there is more to food than just calories- vegetables have a lot of fiber, which is good for cleaning out your insides or something, bananas have potassium which is good for cramps( I think). Where do these go? I do understand how the energy part of the food works. And my point is if it works like I mentioned in the spoiler, then fiber doesn't matter. It is only the calories. That is why it would benefit the situation in the spoiler to eat a donut for a quick burst, vs bread that would give an ability over time. Fiber doesn't come into play with that. WoB spoilered below regarding the other spoiler: Spoiler Argent Does Lift turn food into Investiture directly or is it similar to the metals on-- Brandon Sanderson Similar to the metals. Argent So like a gate? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Argent Okay, that's good to know. Brandon Sanderson She can metabolize-- She can draw-- It's not actually the food, it's-- It's not like the metals, not exactly. It's not-- What she can do is she can metabolize into Investiture instead of sugar. Does that make sense? Argent Yeah. Brandon Sanderson We metabolize food into sugar. She can metabolize it into Investiture. Does that make sense? Argent That makes a lot of sense. So if she eats-- Brandon Sanderson She's got to have a blood sugar spike. Argent So if she eats like a cake it will give her more Investiture-- Brandon Sanderson Faster. It will give her faster. Argent Whereas if she eats a vegetable... Brandon Sanderson Vegetable... More calories is going to equal more. But the better comparison would be a sausage and bread. Because bread is a fast blood sugar spike and the sausage is not. And that's how I'm working in my head. It's kind of a magical version of a blood sugar spike and I have it happen to her faster than it could happen. Like normally you eat a piece of bread and your blood sugar spikes in a half hour, it's going to go faster for Lift. Argent Hers is like five minutes. Brandon Sanderson Hers is like five minutes, but a sausage would be slower. 1
Mushroom Catalog he/him Posted May 2, 2019 Author Posted May 2, 2019 Ooooooh... I think I get it now. Everything just gets turned into energy/investiture. Even vitamins and stuff. All right. Thanks!
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