Soulcasting, the perfect crime

[Pathfinder]

Theoretically if you were an elsecaller, and could convince your spren to go along with it, you could kill someone without any sign or means of tracking you down. Elsecall to the cognitive realm. Locate your target. Make sure the target is alone (at home, asleep, etc). From the cognitive realm soulcast the target into air. Leave the area. The target's self is destroyed by being changed into air so it cannot be "questioned" after death like was hinted in the Kaza interlude. The body was transformed into air, so no smokey residue. No signs of a murder weapon, nor blood. Since it was done from the cognitive realm, there would be no footprints or finger prints. There wouldn't be any sign of someone with the individual before death. As long as it is confirmed that there was no one else hanging out in the cognitive realm in that area during the assassination, there wouldn't be any witnesses. Is there anything I am missing? I do not believe lower spren have enough sapience to be questioned if they were in the area during the assassination. I know there is a means to detect investiture (bronze, white sand, etc), but is there a means to detect investiture used in the area recently/prior to the investigation? I do not think there is, but if I missed something, I would be happy to learn of it. 

So yeah, how would you find out who the murderer is in this scenario? How would soulcasting be determined to be the cause? Is it even possible?

Edited April 11, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

Soulcasting a solid to a gas would create a lot of air that would expand rapidly like an explosion.  Also the dying individual's soul could still be questioned.

[+Ark1002]

That's not true, shown already by the smoke soulcaster

[Pathfinder]

55 minutes ago, Karger said:

Soulcasting a solid to a gas would create a lot of air that would expand rapidly like an explosion.  Also the dying individual's soul could still be questioned.

Jasnah soulcasted a person to smoke in the alley and they did not explode. Soulcasting does do conservation of mass, but not always, and not always to the extent we think. The boulder that jasnah changed into smoke according to another thread should have killed everyone in the room from the explosion. So soulcasting the person to air would not create the explosive effect.

I do not think they could. Their cognitive self was transformed. What is being left in the cognitive realm to be questioned? The newly transformed air? Unless there is an aspect to this I do not understand, I think this handles the issue of being questioned after death

45 minutes ago, Ark1002 said:

That's not true, shown already by the smoke soulcaster

Are you replying to me or to Karger?

If to me, then with Kaza, she was dying of poison. She surprised the Aimian by voluntarily transforming herself to smoke. So I do not think the comment made by the Aimian can be taken to apply to soulcasting. 

 

But regardless of my responses, I would like to think this through, so keep the thoughts coming!

Edited April 11, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

27 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I do not think they could. Their cognitive self was transformed. What is being left in the cognitive realm to be questioned? The newly transformed air? Unless there is an aspect to this I do not understand, I think this handles the issue of being questioned after death

Perhaps their spiritual aspect?  Also perhaps the air does remember what it was like to be a person for a time.  This would be a great ask Brandon

[Pathfinder]

33 minutes ago, Karger said:

Perhaps their spiritual aspect?  Also perhaps the air does remember what it was like to be a person for a time.  This would be a great ask Brandon

Good point, though could transforming the person into air destroy their innate investiture, or lessen it, which we know from hemalurgy and such would result in the spiritual aspect transferring to the beyond faster? Which would again remove the evidence before it could be interrogated. 

Hmmm, perhaps. The stone pillar in the Kaza interlude does remember once upon a time being air, so Kaza offers it smoke to be free again. However, could air that has dissipated and intermingled with the air around it be able to still be close enough together to be able to recall being human? With the stone it was all in one place, it was air given rigid form. But I wonder if the same would apply in reverse. My instinct says no, but I do not know if we have a conclusive answer. 

 

edit: or potentially checking the axi of air to see if they recall being flesh, or bone? But now I am picturing another elsecaller radiant, or willshaper, or lightweaver walking around with their eyes closed, trying to interrogate every single axi in the room on the chance that one of them once was the person lol. And that would be assuming there was some sort of evidence to cause them to suspect soulcasting to try this form of investigation to begin with. Hmmm

Edited April 11, 2019 by Pathfinder

[equinox]

5 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

My instinct says no, but I do not know if we have a conclusive answer. 

My instinct agrees with your instinct. I'm not a Realmatic scientist (Realmatist?), so I cannot give any clear answers. Just to add to the instincts.. We see that live beings look differently in Shadesmar than inanimate objects. The latter are those black beads, right? Humans are represented by a flame. If the person dies, the flame vanishes. I believe this would happen, if a person is Soulcasted into air or smoke and I highly doubt that Soulcasting that same air into a human (is that even possible? to do so, you would have to find the exact patch of air that was a human once - at least if the task should be made easier by Soulcasting air that remembered having been human) would rekindle the flame...

[Karger he/him]

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Theoretically if you were an elsecaller, and could convince your spren to go along with it, you could kill someone without any sign or means of tracking you down

If you are an elsecaller and have the surge of transportation which works like you think it does why not dump them in shadesmar on the other side of the world?

[Calderis he/him]

30 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Good point, though could transforming the person into air destroy their innate investiture, or lessen it, which we know from hemalurgy and such would result in the spiritual aspect transferring to the beyond faster?

The Spiritual doesn't transfer to the Beyond. It leaves a corpse behind, just like the Physical. 

General Cosmere stuff. 

Spoiler

Argent

Is death in the Cosmere a two-stage process? It seems to me like (under normal circumstances) the body dies first, sending the mind fully in the Cognitive Realm; the soul, presumably, remains in the Spiritual for the entire process. I am a little unclear on what happens after that though - what is it that passes into the Beyond, just the mind? Does the soul / spiritual aspect / Spiritweb just kind of... break down in the Spiritual Realm, turn into free investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. It's a two stage process, and most of what you said is correct. The odd thing is, though, that the spiritweb doesn't completely break down (just like your body doesn't immediately break down.) Even after a long time, there's a record of that spirit web in the spiritual realm.

Oversleep

Wait wait wait. If there is a "corpse" of Spiritweb (so to speak) and actual, physical corpse is also there... Could it be still viable for Hemalurgy? Could it be still viable for Hemalurgy if you really know what you're doing and have some useful powers (manipulating Connection comes to mind)?

Could you patch the remnants of the Spiritweb and staple it to the body and end up with some zombie-zombie Lifeless? You'd still need to give it a mind but I figure Awakening is just doing that?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Stormlight Three Update #6 (Feb. 5, 2017)

Which makes sense, considering the time independent nature of the Spiritual Realm. 

[Pathfinder]

26 minutes ago, equinox said:

My instinct agrees with your instinct. I'm not a Realmatic scientist (Realmatist?), so I cannot give any clear answers. Just to add to the instincts.. We see that live beings look differently in Shadesmar than inanimate objects. The latter are those black beads, right? Humans are represented by a flame. If the person dies, the flame vanishes. I believe this would happen, if a person is Soulcasted into air or smoke and I highly doubt that Soulcasting that same air into a human (is that even possible? to do so, you would have to find the exact patch of air that was a human once - at least if the task should be made easier by Soulcasting air that remembered having been human) would rekindle the flame...

That is one of my burning questions for Brandon. if a person is alive, and soulcasted to stone for instance, if a short enough time passed, could they be soulcasted back to human/alive or are they immediate dead dead. Again my instinct is to say they at that point are dead dead, but would love a confirmation. 

20 minutes ago, Karger said:

If you are an elsecaller and have the surge of transportation which works like you think it does why not dump them in shadesmar on the other side of the world?

Because potentially with transportation the body could still be found, while with soulcasting it to air theoretically there wouldn't be a corpseleft? Which is why I am wondering how would an investigator even begin to investigate such a murder. Like how would they ascertain that soulcasting was even the "murder weapon" to begin with? Asking these questions to think through the process. Open for thoughts and counters. 

11 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The Spiritual doesn't transfer to the Beyond. It leaves a corpse behind, just like the Physical. 

General Cosmere stuff. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Argent

Is death in the Cosmere a two-stage process? It seems to me like (under normal circumstances) the body dies first, sending the mind fully in the Cognitive Realm; the soul, presumably, remains in the Spiritual for the entire process. I am a little unclear on what happens after that though - what is it that passes into the Beyond, just the mind? Does the soul / spiritual aspect / Spiritweb just kind of... break down in the Spiritual Realm, turn into free investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. It's a two stage process, and most of what you said is correct. The odd thing is, though, that the spiritweb doesn't completely break down (just like your body doesn't immediately break down.) Even after a long time, there's a record of that spirit web in the spiritual realm.

Oversleep

Wait wait wait. If there is a "corpse" of Spiritweb (so to speak) and actual, physical corpse is also there... Could it be still viable for Hemalurgy? Could it be still viable for Hemalurgy if you really know what you're doing and have some useful powers (manipulating Connection comes to mind)?

Could you patch the remnants of the Spiritweb and staple it to the body and end up with some zombie-zombie Lifeless? You'd still need to give it a mind but I figure Awakening is just doing that?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Stormlight Three Update #6 (Feb. 5, 2017)

Which makes sense, considering the time independent nature of the Spiritual Realm. 

So then my question is, if shardplate could be destroyed via soulcasting (as per WoB), and soulcasters are used to getting past innate investiture to transform something (also as per WoB), what effect do you think it would have on the spiritual aspect of a person who was soulcasted? Do you think their aspect would still exist in whole in the spiritual realm and still be able to be interrogated by a shard? Or would the transformation potentially screw around with that as well? Because so far it looks like (potentially) the soulcasting handles the physical evidence and the cognitive evidence. All that would be left to cover up would be the spiritual evidence. 

Edited April 11, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Calderis he/him]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

So then my question is, if shardplate could be destroyed via soulcasting (as per WoB), and soulcasters are used to getting past innate investiture to transform something (also as per WoB), what effect do you think it would have on the spiritual aspect of a person who was soulcasted? Do you think their aspect would still exist in whole in the spiritual realm and still be able to be interrogated by a shard? Or would the transformation potentially screw around with that as well? Because so far it looks like (potentially) the soulcasting handles the physical evidence and the cognitive evidence. All that would be left to cover up would be the spiritual evidence. 

I think that if you were to soulcast a person intoair, the Physical would be subsumed in the atmosphere and unable to be located. The Cognitive would go Beyond (whatever you believe that actually means), and the Spiritual would remain... But without a Physical or Cognitive Connected to that Spiritual aspect, you'd need some person or thing with an insane amount of Connection to the person to even begin trying to interact with it... And a means to do so that to my knowledge we haven't seen.

Unless the murder in question is being investigated by a Shard, or some other being with a vastly enhanced capacity to view the Spiritual Realm, I don't see how it would be traced. 

[Pathfinder]

35 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I think that if you were to soulcast a person intoair, the Physical would be subsumed in the atmosphere and unable to be located. The Cognitive would go Beyond (whatever you believe that actually means), and the Spiritual would remain... But without a Physical or Cognitive Connected to that Spiritual aspect, you'd need some person or thing with an insane amount of Connection to the person to even begin trying to interact with it... And a means to do so that to my knowledge we haven't seen.

Unless the murder in question is being investigated by a Shard, or some other being with a vastly enhanced capacity to view the Spiritual Realm, I don't see how it would be traced. 

Interesting. So soulcasting just got even cooler yet again lol. 

[ShardShaper he/him]

OR, you could lash someone to the sky while outdoors. No body, no soul to question... Pretty much all Radiants are a threat to society. 

[galendo]

7 hours ago, ShardShaper said:

OR, you could lash someone to the sky while outdoors. No body, no soul to question... Pretty much all Radiants are a threat to society. 

I don't think that would work nearly as well.  A lot of people could see the body going, and a whole lot of different people might see the body coming down.  If it suddenly starts raining corpses, people are going to look askance at the nearest Windrunner/Skybreaker.

8 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Interesting. So soulcasting just got even cooler yet again lol. 

Or stupider.  It depends on your point of view.

Personally, I think Soulcasting is the dumbest of the ten Radiant abilities, because it's easily the best.  As a practical matter, any Soulcasting Radiant has better Adhesion than the Bondsmiths/Windrunners, better Division than the Skybreakers/Dustbringers, better Cohesion/Tension (I forget which ability's which, but come to think of it Soulcasting's probably better at both) than the Willshapers/Stonewards/Bondsmiths.  They're superior at the effects of at least half the Surges, and can do at least a limited mimicry of most of the others as well (see, e.g., Jasnah mimicking Regrowth when Soulcasting Shallan's blood).  Ironically, the two Surges that Soulcasting is least effective at mimicking are Transportation and Illumination -- and each of the two Soulcasting Orders gets one of those Surges as well.

If I were planning the series, I'd have split Soulcasting into ten pieces and given one piece to each Order as the perk of swearing one of their Ideals.  I'd also have added a time/concentration restriction so that it couldn't be a super-amazing awesome effective no-dodge one-hit KO in most combat situations.  This idea of assassinating random people without trace or defense is just one of the many, many ways in which Soulcasting is stupidly overpowered and, as a result, entirely uninteresting.

It's a shame, in a way.  If the Elsecallers had been much more limited, they could have been used exactly like this, as the ultimate assassination Order.  I'd have given them the ability to turn things into something obvious, like say crystal, so that when you find a crystal corpse in your buddy's bed or a pair of new crystal sentries standing guard, it's clear just who got to them and how.  The Elsecallers could have been the stealthy assassins and the Lightweavers the sneaky spies, both without as much active combat potential but far more useful in cloak-and-dagger situations.

Instead, we got the super-awesome, do-anything Orders, which is really kind of a shame.

[Pathfinder]

16 hours ago, ShardShaper said:

OR, you could lash someone to the sky while outdoors. No body, no soul to question... Pretty much all Radiants are a threat to society. 

The goal was to make it so there was no way to link the killer to the killed, and process of killing. As galendo brings up, someone glowing and screaming for help while flying into the sky would certainly cause some issues. In addition you have to be in the physical realm and touch the person, so you could potentially leave signs of having been in the area (by either having been seen by a witness, or leaving physical evidence at the scene of the crime). Finally even assuming you could lash someone enough for them to go into orbit, the moment they died from lack of oxygen which would be prior to exiting the planet, their cognitive self could still be potentially questioned as the individual died while still in the planet's "sphere". Soulcasting would handle all these issues. 

7 hours ago, galendo said:

Or stupider.  It depends on your point of view.

Personally, I think Soulcasting is the dumbest of the ten Radiant abilities, because it's easily the best.  As a practical matter, any Soulcasting Radiant has better Adhesion than the Bondsmiths/Windrunners, better Division than the Skybreakers/Dustbringers, better Cohesion/Tension (I forget which ability's which, but come to think of it Soulcasting's probably better at both) than the Willshapers/Stonewards/Bondsmiths.  They're superior at the effects of at least half the Surges, and can do at least a limited mimicry of most of the others as well (see, e.g., Jasnah mimicking Regrowth when Soulcasting Shallan's blood).  Ironically, the two Surges that Soulcasting is least effective at mimicking are Transportation and Illumination -- and each of the two Soulcasting Orders gets one of those Surges as well.

If I were planning the series, I'd have split Soulcasting into ten pieces and given one piece to each Order as the perk of swearing one of their Ideals.  I'd also have added a time/concentration restriction so that it couldn't be a super-amazing awesome effective no-dodge one-hit KO in most combat situations.  This idea of assassinating random people without trace or defense is just one of the many, many ways in which Soulcasting is stupidly overpowered and, as a result, entirely uninteresting.

It's a shame, in a way.  If the Elsecallers had been much more limited, they could have been used exactly like this, as the ultimate assassination Order.  I'd have given them the ability to turn things into something obvious, like say crystal, so that when you find a crystal corpse in your buddy's bed or a pair of new crystal sentries standing guard, it's clear just who got to them and how.  The Elsecallers could have been the stealthy assassins and the Lightweavers the sneaky spies, both without as much active combat potential but far more useful in cloak-and-dagger situations.

Instead, we got the super-awesome, do-anything Orders, which is really kind of a shame.

That is not quite the word I would use, but as you said, it depends on your point of view. 

Interestingly enough as per WoB, that was actually how it originally was. There was just shardplate, shardblades, and soulcasting. Each order could only soulcast a particular essence. Brandon ended up changing that. Having not seen division, cohesion, and tension in full action yet, I think it is too early to claim that they would be ineffective in comparison to soulcasting. While soulcasting may require two materials (oil and spark for instance) to create a burning effect, as far as we know division could effect for more things, far stronger. Cohesion from what little we have seen seems to be able to effect much more detailed change. It just seems like it cannot create matter out of other materials. Tension I am very much looking forward to. There is a whole host of possibilities that can be done with it that soulcasting cannot accomplish. I know you said limited mimicry, but soulcasting blood to me is not close to healing with regrowth at all. All Jasnah did was cleanse the blood. Shallan was still injured from the experience and needed time to recover, while regrowth would have seen her whole and ready to go. 

I think the usefulness of the surges comes down to the individuals using them. But I understand that is your opinion, and though I respect it, I will agree to disagree. 

Edited April 12, 2019 by Pathfinder

[ShardShaper he/him]

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

The goal was to make it so there was no way to link the killer to the killed, and process of killing. As galendo brings up, someone glowing and screaming for help while flying into the sky would certainly cause some issues.

But, if you invest someone with enough stormlight when you lash them to the sky (and presumably double or triple lash them so they would go faster) then they could clear the clear the planets gravitational field, which would keep the body from falling down.

[galendo]

@Pathfinder: Do you know if Brandon said why he changed the system?  The original version seems a far better one to me.  I get that the original system would have made it impossible for both Shallan to Soulcast the goblet into blood and Jasnah to Soulcast Shallan's blood later, but that seems a pretty minor price to pay for a much better, more balanced system.  I suppose it might also have messed with Lift's character, since the Edgedances would have been the obvious Order for the Soulcast-to-food ability, which might have paired strangely with Lift's ability to convert food into Stormlight.  But again these seem like minor issues when weighed against the benefits of a more consistent, more predictable, more balanced magic system.

[Calderis he/him]

@galendo because it was boring.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

In fact, in the origin of The Stormlight Archive, the first Surgebinding things I did, every order of the Knights Radiant was going to be able to Soulcast. Be able to change things from one to another. It was just, you would be locked into the element that was associated with your order of Knight Radiant, you could turn that into anything else you wanted to. That was one of my original pitches. I eventually moved away from that, a lot of the Orders were just feeling too similar in what they did, but that core concept is still there in Stormlight, and Soulcasting as a concept is there because the series is about change.

Oathbringer Houston signing (Nov. 18, 2017)

It made the orders to similar. 

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, ShardShaper said:

But, if you invest someone with enough stormlight when you lash them to the sky (and presumably double or triple lash them so they would go faster) then they could clear the clear the planets gravitational field, which would keep the body from falling down.

Great, but you are still sending a glowing (very brightly might I add from all the lashes you are adding) and screaming person into the air for all to see and hear. The point of this thought experiment for "the perfect crime" is one that cannot be traced in anyway. By killing someone in that manner, you:

1. reveal the means of killing to be gravitation

2. reveal which radiant order potentially did it (windrunners or skybreakers)

3. reveal the location it was done

4. reveal when it was done

Since the killer in question would have to be in the physical realm to accomplish this, all it would take is a witness to see a radiant streaking away in the air from the location, or see someone running away from the spot to narrow down the culprit. Soulcasting avoids all these issues. The cognitive realm seems "less" populated at this point in time. Lower spren seem to be primarily the type that hang around human cities so cannot testify since they lack sapience. Sapient spren tend to hang out in cities that are over the water in the physical realm, so less likely for a randon sapient spren to be chilling near by. Other than the proposed explosion by @Karger, soulcasting is largely a quick and done occurrence. Since we have seen soulcasting a person to smoke did not cause an explosion, i see no reason to think soulcasting to air would be any different. No physical evidence on the physical realm. By transforming the person to air, potentially no evidence on the cognitive realm. The only hiccup would be the spiritual realm and as @calderis pointed out (and I agree), potentially you would need a shard level individual to access to interrogate. That is why I think it would be the "perfect crime"

43 minutes ago, galendo said:

@Pathfinder: Do you know if Brandon said why he changed the system?  The original version seems a far better one to me.  I get that the original system would have made it impossible for both Shallan to Soulcast the goblet into blood and Jasnah to Soulcast Shallan's blood later, but that seems a pretty minor price to pay for a much better, more balanced system.  I suppose it might also have messed with Lift's character, since the Edgedances would have been the obvious Order for the Soulcast-to-food ability, which might have paired strangely with Lift's ability to convert food into Stormlight.  But again these seem like minor issues when weighed against the benefits of a more consistent, more predictable, more balanced magic system.

I was having trouble locating that WoB, but Calderis found it (thanks!), so that's the gist of it. 

[Karger he/him]

I think lightweaving is a better form of murder.  He simply did not see the stairs and so he fell down them and broke his neck.  Tragic accident.

[Pathfinder]

15 minutes ago, Karger said:

I think lightweaving is a better form of murder.  He simply did not see the stairs and so he fell down them and broke his neck.  Tragic accident.

Good point on the illusions. The Imager series of books went along that line. Though you would have to make the illusion be in such a way that even the victim thought it was an accident, as the body would remain, and the cognitive self could be questioned. But on whole, I could definitely see that working. Well done. 

Edited April 12, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Calderis he/him]

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

the cognitive self could be questioned

Only if it happened very quickly. The Cognitive is what fades to the Beyond. 

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Only if it happened very quickly. The Cognitive is what fades to the Beyond. 

True true. I only felt it worth mentioning because of the kaza interlude. I am assuming (and I admit it is a big assumption) that the cognitive self was what the aimian cook was referring to by still being able to glean information from kaza even after her death due to the poison. Kaza just changed things up by soulcasting and going out on her own terms

[Calderis he/him]

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

True true. I only felt it worth mentioning because of the kaza interlude. I am assuming (and I admit it is a big assumption) that the cognitive self was what the aimian cook was referring to by still being able to glean information from kaza even after her death due to the poison. Kaza just changed things up by soulcasting and going out on her own terms

I thought that bit was most likely referring to an Unmade. 

[galendo]

7 hours ago, Calderis said:

@galendo because it was boring.

It made the orders to similar. 

Interesting quote, and thanks for the reference; though with respect to @Pathfinder it's actually almost the opposite of what I suggested.  It sounds like Brandon was thinking of having the Radiants be able to turn their element into anything, while I was imagining the reverse: being able to turn anything into their element.  I can see how the former would have been too same-y.  I wonder if he ever considered my version, though.

6 hours ago, Karger said:

I think lightweaving is a better form of murder.  He simply did not see the stairs and so he fell down them and broke his neck.  Tragic accident.

Not a bad idea, but it requires the mark to be both unfamiliar with his surroundings and in a sufficiently dangerous location for such an accident to take place.  Not the sort of trick you could use if the mark were at home, or at a friend's house, or at their favorite pub, or really in most locations.  Now if Lightweaving could make things invisible, then you'd be onto something.  But I don't think it can do that.

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

I thought that bit was most likely referring to an Unmade. 

It could also be due to the fact that the more someone uses the magic, the longer their Cognitive image can stick around.  And it was very clear that Kaza had been using the magic enough for it to make some very significant changes to her.  Not to mention the fact that there's a very real possibility that Odium might take a direct interest.