The Reason for Deadeyes.

[Calderis]

I've mentioned this in a few places, but I want an easy reference when talking about the idea, so here goes. 

When a Radiant breaks their oaths, a spren is transformed into a Deadeyes, robbing them of their sapience and leaving them in a state that they are trapped in the Physical form of a blade, like the Honorblades they mimicked. 

I think that we've seen a much lesser version of this phenomenon multiple times. 

When a living spren transitions to the Physical Realm in search of a Radiant, they lose much of their mental capacity. As Syl says, if Kaladin were to die, she'd "go stupid."

I think that these occurances are quite literally the same effect, just at drastically different levels of severity. 

Spren are purely Cognitive entities. So much so that when they transition, even partially, into the Physical Realm their mind is degraded to the point of that they function nearly identically to the non-sapient spren that pervade Roshar. So what happens when that same spren is forced to manifest as an actual corporeal blade? 

So what I believe, is that as the bond with a Radiant progresses the spren comes more and more to rely on the Physical Aspect of their bondmate. Their presence in the Physical Realm becomes something supported by the merger of souls that is occurring, allowing them to retain the Cognitive functions despite lacking a real physical body. Once this progresses deeply enough, they can actually manifest as a corporeal object, piggybacking fully on the Physical Aspect of their bondmate. 

When a Radiant dies, or the bond is released, the sprens Spiritual Aspect reverts to normal and they need to return to the Cognitive Realm or their mind will once again degrade... But if the bond is abruptly severed through the breaking of oaths, then the connection to their Radiant is "ripped out" leaving them in a state that they are supposed to have a Physical Aspect, but lacking the actual parts to do so.

When the blade forms, without the Connection to the Physical that allows it, that missing piece must be somehow provided, and it's taken from the only place the spren has to give it. Their mind. Just as a human in the Cognitive fully still has a Physical Aspect that allows them to transition back to the Physical Realm, the spren would still be broken while dismissed.

In order to heal a Deadeyes, if I'm correct, would require a new bond to be established. This would allow the Investiture that makes up the spren to be redistributed properly, restoring their mind by returning a Physical Aspect that doesn't require the sacrifice of their own mind. With their previous Radiant this is simple. You just have to restore your oaths and the Connection of the bond is restored, because it never fully died anyway due to the Time independent nature of the Spiritual. But for someone building a new bond... How exactly do you achieve that with an entity that has basically been lobotomized? 

My only real question in regards to all this is what happens with the spren of radiants of lesser oaths when the oaths break? They should still be effected, as they clearly improve Cognitively after the point of bonding and well before the ability to become a blade. But if this is correct, they should be "less dead" than spren of Radiants who had attained their blades. We have no evidence that that is the case, but we've also only seen two dead spren in the Cognitive, both of which were bonded to people as shardblades.

So on the whole I think it works, and want to ask Brandon about pre-blade Deadeyes. 

Edited April 7, 2019 by Calderis

[Brightness Jencee]

@Calderis So do you think that Syl became a deadeye when Kaladin agreed to help kill Elhokar and was then easily revived because he was her original bonded Radiant?  Or was she not fully dead because he didn’t intentionally break his oaths but was just confused about what was the right thing to do? Is intention necessary to truly break an oath? It seems like it would be or radiants could have accidentally killed their spren.

Also, why blades? It seems like there should be shardspears, shard halberds, sharddaggers, etc. as well since the spren could manifest in any form their Radiant wanted. Why did the spren all specifically manifest as swords at the recreance? Was that also an intention of the Radiants or does it have something to do with whatever was ripped out of the spren when it “died?”

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, Brightness Jencee said:

@Calderis So do you think that Syl became a deadeye when Kaladin agreed to help kill Elhokar and was then easily revived because he was her original bonded Radiant?  Or was she not fully dead because he didn’t intentionally break his oaths but was just confused about what was the right thing to do? Is intention necessary to truly break an oath? It seems like it would be or radiants could have accidentally killed their spren.

He broke his oaths, and she died. Yes. She says it herself. 

"I was only as dead as your oaths."

7 minutes ago, Brightness Jencee said:

Also, why blades? It seems like there should be shardspears, shard halberds, sharddaggers, etc. as well since the spren could manifest in any form their Radiant wanted. Why did the spren all specifically manifest as swords at the recreance? Was that also an intention of the Radiants or does it have something to do with whatever was ripped out of the spren when it “died?”

Because they mimicked the Honorblades, that is their default form. 

Quote

Questioner

I know at the end of Words of Radiance Syl shows she can turn into different forms, not just a sword. Why do they not-- Or why do none of the other past Radiants really show that they have done that. Because normally in the flashbacks they are shown just being swords.

Brandon Sanderson

So the shardblades came from spren seeing the Honorblades, which were created for mankind, and being like "I can do that". That is what they were imitating.

Questioner

So that's what they wanted--

Brandon Sanderson

No, that's how they see themselves and how they are seen. They can change into other things--

Questioner

They just never--

Brandon Sanderson

But when you let go of one it's going to become a sword again.

Questioner

Oh, I just meant in all the visions they were always portrayed as swords. Was that just for--

Brandon Sanderson

That's cultural, like this is-- One thing that is interesting is you are going to see that the new Radiants don't have-- I mean the Radiants you have seen almost all of them are after thousands of years of Radiants and Orders and you have certain things that you do.

So the writing reason was I didn't want to give away--

Questioner

That's what I was going to ask.

Brandon Sanderson

There is a writing reason behind it. I didn't want to do that and give too much away. I already worried that having Syl shift shapes as often as she did through the first book was going to be a big clue to people and I wanted to hold off on giving away too much.

Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015)

Even Syl when she first appeared was a sword and then went "oh yeah, you probably want a spear right?" 

[Brightness Jencee]

22 minutes ago, Calderis said:

He broke his oaths, and she died. Yes. She says it herself. 

"I was only as dead as your oaths."

So Kaladin didn’t actually “do” anything to revive her other than return to his oath. She revived, had a yelling match with the Stormfather, and then returned to Kaladin and got him to say his second oath. Am I getting that right? If this is the case, then it seems that all a person would have to do to revive a deadeye is speak the oaths to create a new connection(they would, of course, have to know that their blade was actually a spren and which kind it was so they could speak the proper oaths). I thought there was a WoB, though, that said it was way more complicated than this and nearly impossible without the original Radiant that broke the oath.

When a spren transitions into the physical realm to bond a Radiant, how much is left in the cognitive? When Syl is with Kaladin flitting around and sitting on his shoulder, is she still partially in the cognitive? I mean, if I were in the cognitive and near Kaladin, would I see his flame and some sort of Syl-ish thing close by it or a whole, fully cognizant Syl that I could talk to? Is what Kaladin sees as Syl in the physical realm just a small part like other spren or is Syl actually now in the physical realm? Is she only fully in the physical when she manifests as a blade? I guess what I'm trying to wrap my head around is why deadeyes even exist in the cognitive. If manifesting as a blade puts them entirely in the physical, where does the deadeye in the cognitive come from? Were they partially in the cognitive when the recreance happened so they were basically ripped in half leaving a mindless deadeye in the cognitive and a magical blade in the physical? This whole thing is confusing.

Thanks for the WoB about imitating honorblades. That was helpful.

[Karger]

Perhaps to restore a Deadeye the shardbearer who swears the oath must be similar in personality?

[Calderis]

47 minutes ago, Brightness Jencee said:

So Kaladin didn’t actually “do” anything to revive her other than return to his oath. She revived, had a yelling match with the Stormfather, and then returned to Kaladin and got him to say his second oath. Am I getting that right? If this is the case, then it seems that all a person would have to do to revive a deadeye is speak the oaths to create a new connection(they would, of course, have to know that their blade was actually a spren and which kind it was so they could speak the proper oaths). I thought there was a WoB, though, that said it was way more complicated than this and nearly impossible without the original Radiant that broke the oath.

It is far more complicated than that. 

With the existing Radiant the Connection doesn't die with the oaths. You can restore them easily because that Connection exists.

For someone who never had that Connection in the first place, speaking the oaths would no more effective than for a non-Radiant to speak the oaths without a spren choosing them. 

The problem, the near impossibility, is forging that Connection with an entity that does not have the mental capacity to "choose" someone to begin with.

On top of that, for either the case of the Original Radiant or a new person bonding the dead spren, "saying the oath" isn't enough even with the connection. You have to live them. Fully and truly. Failure to do so is how Kal killed Syl in the first place. 

47 minutes ago, Brightness Jencee said:

When a spren transitions into the physical realm to bond a Radiant, how much is left in the cognitive? When Syl is with Kaladin flitting around and sitting on his shoulder, is she still partially in the cognitive? I mean, if I were in the cognitive and near Kaladin, would I see his flame and some sort of Syl-ish thing close by it or a whole, fully cognizant Syl that I could talk to? Is what Kaladin sees as Syl in the physical realm just a small part like other spren or is Syl actually now in the physical realm? Is she only fully in the physical when she manifests as a blade? I guess what I'm trying to wrap my head around is why deadeyes even exist in the cognitive. If manifesting as a blade puts them entirely in the physical, where does the deadeye in the cognitive come from? Were they partially in the cognitive when the recreance happened so they were basically ripped in half leaving a mindless deadeye in the cognitive and a magical blade in the physical? This whole thing is confusing.

They should appear as a flame in the Cognitive, and be present in the Physical, even if they aren't in a corporeal form. Just like how windspren aren't "Physical" but are rare in the Cognitive Realm. They transition, and that's what causes they're mental degradation, even if my reasoning as to why is incorrect. I believe Syl mentions it, and this is what Wyndle says "The Ring" did things to try to mitigate with him. 

As to Deadeyes Cognitive presence, I have a lot of questions there. It makes sense when they're dismissed, but I don't understand why the would be present at all if the blade is summoned. 

[galendo]

I mostly like this theory.  It's similar to what I thought was happening, but it fails to explain:

1) Why Syl's memories don't return while she's entirely in Shadesmar.  Her mind should have been fully restored at that point, but it wasn't.

2) As @Brightness Jencee mentioned, when fully summoned into the Physical, the presence of the deadeyes in the Cognitive seems strange.  The cognitive portion of the dead spren seem to be almost entirely destroyed, while the damage to their forms in Shadesmar seems comparatively minor.

On the other hand,

18 hours ago, Calderis said:

My only real question in regards to all this is what happens with the spren of radiants of lesser oaths when the oaths break? They should still be effected, as they clearly improve Cognitively after the point of bonding and well before the ability to become a blade. But if this is correct, they should be "less dead" than spren of Radiants who had attained their blades. We have no evidence that that is the case, but we've also only seen two dead spren in the Cognitive, both of which were bonded to people as shardblades.

We do kind of have evidence of this.  If I remember correctly, after Kaladin "killed" Syl, she wasn't completely dead.  She obviously wasn't in great shape -- Kaladin could faintly hear her weeping, and her Physical presence seems to be entirely missing -- and the Stormfather refused to allow her to be near Kaladin ("A daughter disobeys"), but the Stormfather was straight-up lying when he claimed that she was dead.  She was, at least, pretty clearly less dead that a fully dead Shardblade.

[Calderis]

10 minutes ago, galendo said:

1) Why Syl's memories don't return while she's entirely in Shadesmar.  Her mind should have been fully restored at that point, but it wasn't.

Why should it be? Even though she's in the Cognitive Realm, she's still "supposed to be" physical because if the bond. At that point, she's much more similar to the humans accompanying her than she is a spren that never entered the Physical Realm. She's already reached the point that if Kal were to break his oaths she'd be a blade in truth. 

She's limited by the bond in that respect in the same way that the Deadeyes remain broken even if the blade is dismissed. Being in the Cognitive Realm does not change how "Physical" something is. 

Mistborn spoilers 

Spoiler

It's the same way that Kelsier without a body is unable to step through a perpendicularity and enter the Physical Realm while anyone with a body could. Or why he could walk on the Mists, but Hoid needed a "boat" 

The Connection that a person has to the Physical does not go away just because you've enter the Cognitive. 

 

18 minutes ago, galendo said:

We do kind of have evidence of this.  If I remember correctly, after Kaladin "killed" Syl, she wasn't completely dead.  She obviously wasn't in great shape -- Kaladin could faintly hear her weeping, and her Physical presence seems to be entirely missing -- and the Stormfather refused to allow her to be near Kaladin ("A daughter disobeys"), but the Stormfather was straight-up lying when he claimed that she was dead.  She was, at least, pretty clearly less dead that a fully dead Shardblade.

Eh. I don't think he was lying. "Dead" means something very different to spren then it does to us. Deadeyes aren't truly "dead" either. 

Like I said, I'd like to ask Brandon about the state of spren at lower oaths, and Syl specifically. For example, if Syl had been around for Rock to see during that time, what would she have looked like? 

[Brightness Jencee]

19 hours ago, Calderis said:

When a Radiant dies, or the bond is released, the sprens Spiritual Aspect reverts to normal and they need to return to the Cognitive Realm or their mind will once again degrade... But if the bond is abruptly severed through the breaking of oaths, then the connection to their Radiant is "ripped out" leaving them in a state that they are supposed to have a Physical Aspect, but lacking the actual parts to do so.

When the blade forms, without the Connection to the Physical that allows it, that missing piece must be somehow provided, and it's taken from the only place the spren has to give it. Their mind. Just as a human in the Cognitive fully still has a Physical Aspect that allows them to transition back to the Physical Realm, the spren would still be broken while dismissed.

I’ve been scouring the Coppermind and agree with your idea here. A few things jumped out at me to go along with it....

The first is regarding the formation of the Nahel bond itself. In the Song of Spren it says:

“The spren betrayed us, it's often felt.

Our minds are too close to their realm

That gives us our forms, but more is then

Demanded by the smartest spren,

We can't provide what the humans lend,

Though broth are we, their meat is men.” 

To me this implies that the humans’ strong Connection to the physical realm is why the the Nahel bond is possible with them in a way not possible with the Singers.  “Shadesmar is the natural habitat of the spren, and is where their true form can be seen.” (Coppermind) They are fully Connected to the Cognitive and, in their natural state, appear to have only a cognitive aspect and a spiritual aspect. The “smartest spren” have such a strong Connection in Shadesmar that they have become sapient and able to interact with their world as humans do in the physical realm. I read somewhere that it is a person’s Connection to their world that enables them to understand it and function within it in a meaningful may. We see Dalinar’s Bondsmith ability manipulate Connection so he can understand other languages and the Parshmen’s Connection to their local land/people causing them to act as if they were alway from that place when their minds were returned. This Connection is what enables the “mind” to exist. I’m guessing, that when a Nahel bond is formed, this Connection, though the bond, is transferred from the cognitive to the physical realm. Both Syl and Pattern mention that the transition to the physical realm was very difficult. They enter it is a cognitive being that can now interact with the physical realm, but as a baby that has to learn and grow. Because their Connection moved out of the cognitive realm, they lost all of their memories and understanding associated with it. These are still part of their Identity, however so they would slowly regain them as they grew in their Connection and understanding of the physical realm through the Nahel bond. My personal thought is that if the bond was severed at this time, the spren would “die” in the sense that it would revert to it’s “baby” form forever in the physical realm where it's Connection now primarily resides. It would no longer exist  as a sapient being in either realm. They have slowly been regaining some Connection to the cognitive as their memories return, but not enough to return there as a sapient being.

When the Spren’s Connection to the Physical realm has developed enough through the progression of oaths, they will gain a physical aspect and manifest as a Shardblade. The spren now, for the first time, has 3 aspects: Cognitive (their natural state with some Connection to Shadesmar regained), Physical (the Shardblade), and Spiritual (Connection, Identity, etc.). They have essentially become a totally new kind of spren.

This brings us to the second part, what happens when the Radiant breaks his oath. Well, if (emphasize “if”) the above is correct, then, @Calderis, your “ripping out of the mind” makes total sense because the Connection gained through the Radiant that enabled the spren to gain sapience in the physical realm would be ripped away leaving them mindless. The Connection part of their spiritweb would be in tatters causing them to “shatter,” in a way into their three aspects. Their physical aspect would become a Shardblade (because of it’s Identity), stuck in the physical realm by whatever remnants of Connection are left to it, but essentially dead because there is no longer a mind or anything with it. The cognitive aspect would become a deadeye in Shadesmar due to a remnant of Connection that it had regained there, but not enough to truly exist there. It maintains a similar appearance to its original form there because of Identity. And finally, the tattered remnants of the spiritweb gives each of the other aspects it’s Identity and somehow manages to keep them just enough Connected that the cognitive aspect can find its physical aspect’s correlating location in the physical realm.The later discovery of adding a gemstone strengthened that Connection just enough to enable the blade to transport to the cognitive realm when not in use. The 10 heartbeats is the time to Connect and make the transition back to the physical realm when summoned. 

Lastly, to heal a deadeye, having the original Radiant would be ideal because he has the “exact” missing piece of the puzzle. However, since that isn’t possible, here is my best guess. First, a couple of quotes from the Coppermind:

“A female Stoneward possessed what appears to be a fabrial constructed from a large topaz and heliodor that was able to "regrow" and repair injuries.[16] It manipulated the Surge of Growth.”

“The Surgebinder can even reverse death with Regrowth; a body that has bled out or a soul that has been severed with a Shardblade can be healed with Regrowth and continue to function as if it has never been damaged.[38] However, once the soul leaves the body and reaches the afterlife, it is impossible for the Surgebinder to revive the person.[40]”

“Gold healing works by aligning an individual's Physical aspect to their ideal self as recorded in their Spiritual aspect. This does not prevent them from aging or certain genetic diseases as those are considered part of the ideal.[6]”

“Damage to the soul, such as that caused by Hemalurgy, can be healed by Bloodmakers.[9] A Bloodmaker would also be able to heal a wound from a Shardblade,[10] or being withered by a shade.[11]”

My thinking is that either a Lightweaver, Truthwatcher, or fabrial like the one in the above quote, possibly with a gold framework, along with a Bondsmith, the deadeye, and the person who will form the new Nahel Bond.  The first to use progression Regrowth to heal the tattered spiritweb of the deadeye to its original ideal stored in Identity and the Bondsmith to aid that healing in such a way that it reunites the three aspects and enables the new Nahel Bond with the new future Radiant.

 

Ok, I quit now.

[hoidanalsium]

On 4/6/2019 at 7:51 PM, Calderis said:

In order to heal a Deadeyes, if I'm correct, would require a new bond to be established. This would allow the Investiture that makes up the spren to be redistributed properly, restoring their mind by returning a Physical Aspect that doesn't require the sacrifice of their own mind. With their previous Radiant this is simple. You just have to restore your oaths and the Connection of the bond is restored, because it never fully died anyway due to the Time independent nature of the Spiritual. But for someone building a new bond... How exactly do you achieve that with an entity that has basically been lobotomized? 

 

On 4/7/2019 at 3:25 PM, Brightness Jencee said:

My thinking is that either a Lightweaver, Truthwatcher, or fabrial like the one in the above quote, possibly with a gold framework, along with a Bondsmith, the deadeye, and the person who will form the new Nahel Bond.  The first to use progression Regrowth to heal the tattered spiritweb of the deadeye to its original ideal stored in Identity and the Bondsmith to aid that healing in such a way that it reunites the three aspects and enables the new Nahel Bond with the new future Radiant.

I never thought Adolin would become a radiant but if all this is true then I think he is the best candidate for creating a bond with a deadeye given his connection to his 

[Calderis]

8 minutes ago, hoidanalsium said:

I never thought Adolin would become a radiant but if all this is true then I think he is the best candidate for creating a bond with a deadeye given his connection to his 

Considering the events of OB, I think it's already happening. We have the blades name, and she's begun to communicate with him, in a rudimentary form at least. 

With everything I wrote above, I don't think any of that would be possible unless she's beginning to form a bond and rely on his Physical Aspect, restoring her mind to her similar to a radiants spren. 

I don't think he'll have a true bond until she heals fully... Which means, in my opinion, he'll have to reach the point of a third ideal Edgedancer without many (if any) of the perks a Radiant gets. And I think this is going to be a slow process. 

But I absolutely think it's started. 

Edited April 9, 2019 by Calderis