I'd like to know the resons why people don't ship Kalladin and Shallen

[kaellok he/him]

 

Hey, thanks for responding to my response.  Allow me to respond again in turn 

 

1. Ultimately, I don't think any relationship involving Kaladin will have much of a shelf life.  I am currently under the belief that Kaladin is Fleet (and not just in the sense of how he ran as far as he could to protect Elhokar, but still survived), but more in the sense that he will, ultimately, be dead by the end of the first 5 books.

 

2. You bring up a great point that Shallan seems very eager to continue fighting for her relationship with Adolin.  I, however, would ask why?  Why fight so hard for this relationship?  I certainly don't know why she does, and I doubt she does either.  She certainly has demonstrated trouble knowing her own heart at times.  She does find many qualities that she likes in Adolin ("He's kind, noble, and genuine"), and of course very attractive.  Certainly a good start for potential lovers, but will it grow into something more, something deeper?  It could, but I do not believe so.  Shallan's passions have always seem to lie in her pursuit of her scholarship and knowledge, and after WoK, her quest to help stop the voidbringers from returning.  Ensuring her betrothal to Adolin only seemed to me like a means to her being able to pursue those ends, a means that is no longer necessary by the end of WoR.  So again, why fight so hard for it?  Does she feel so committed to the idea of a betrothal to Adolin that she can't even contemplate choosing something different for herself (like being single even)?

 

 

Snipped out bits I'm not responding to (and I added numbers for easy responding)!  Sadly, I don't have my book with me right now for quotes or accuracy, but I'm pretty sure I'm right.  Like, 87% sure.

 

1. We at least agree on Kaladin not being long for the world, huzzah! (I mean huzzah at agreeing, not his impending death.  That's actually quite sad.)  I don't think that he's literally Fleet, but that's a different discussion.

 

2.  Have you ever been forced to do something that you weren't really sure about and it turned out to be the absolute best thing ever??!  Sure, she went along with the marriage betrothal thing to help her family, secure finances, get assassins off her back, etc.  Maybe not the best of reasons, but she never once lied about it or hid the truth; she was, in fact, brutally honest and up front about the reasons.  These reasons are, by and large, moot by the end of WoR--but she is fighting for the relationship because it actually means something more to her.  Adolin knows why it started, and he knows that circumstances changed, and so he really wasn't sure if she was still interested in him or not, if what he had to offer was something she still wanted (and I mean beyond wealth or fame or whatever; the intangible things that are so necessary for a good relationship to work.  Like making her laugh when she's sad.)  Maybe we don't know why Shallan wants the relationship so much, but we do know that she does want it--and they seem to work very, very well together from what I'v seen.

 

3.  Ok, I don't know really where to begin...so I guess I'll start with Kaladin not catching on to the purpose of the bridgemen.  Again, we as the reader have the benefit of knowing the big picture as painted for us by Brandon.  Heck, while bridge 4 is practicing the side carry, we have the whole Gaz/Lamaril scene in which they discuss the purpose of bridgemen: "Bridgement aren't supposed to survive.  They are bait."  I don't really blame Kaladin for not picking up on it sooner because unlike us, the reader, he is not equipped with all the facts, only his perspective guides him.

 

Again, I politely disagree about Kaladin finding it difficult to understand the motives of others.  

 

 

 

4.  Good points.  My counterargument would be that why tell Kaladin if she is so afraid of Adolin finding out?  She and Kaladin are as safe as they can be at this point, and Shallan has had this powerful confidence that she is going to survive this chasm, and even has to force a bit of that optimism into him in order to get him off the back of the chasmfiend and climbing the cliffside to the alcove.  And Kaladin is the captain of Dalinar's personal guard!  Wouldn't she consider the possibility that he may take it very seriously that there is someone who murdered her own father close to the family he is sworn to protect?  Telling him could potentially be as risky as telling Adolin himself.  How can she be sure that Kaladin won't take it to the Kholins as is his duty.  We know he wouldn't but she doesn't.

 

5.  Also not sure what the "terrible consequences" would have been had she not shared, could you elaborate?  I'll certainly agree that the measure of danger accelerated Kaladin and Shallan to the point that they could share such things, a point at which Adolin and Shallan may take a longer time to reach, but I disagree that Shallan would have shared with just anybody.  I mean, put some other male character in Kaladin's place, would she still have felt comfortable enough to share?  Would she still share if it had been say...Gaz she was clutching to?  Renarin?  Dalinar?  Lopen? (ok, maybe Lopen).  During this scene, she has no intention initially of sharing, but it is Kaladin himself, and his story she insisted on hearing from him that drew her own demons out into the open.  

 

3.  Kaladin is good at reading people's motivations and seeing who they are as long as they are not lighteyes.  I believe that every time he seriously misjudges someone, or misinterprets something, or just gets it all wrong--is because lighteyes were involved.  As he slowly (so very, very, excruciatingly slowly) gets over his (justifiable) prejudice against them, his blinders will slowly be removed. 

 

4.  I absolutely, vehemently disagree that Shallan is powerfully convinced that they will survive the chasm.  Not for real.  It is as faked and forced as is her confidence when she convinced the deserters to join her and save the caravan, as when she faced the Ghostbloods, or when she met with the Highprinces just after arriving, and made Selabriel take her in.  It's a false confidence that you must maintain absolutely--and if you let one pessimistic, angsty bodyguard wear it down even a little, then it may shatter completely and leave you a quivering, weeping wreck until you die.  At least, that's how it is for me, and so that's how I read it; given some of the strong similarities between myself and Shallan, it just felt right

 

5.  Some secrets are toxic and poison to keep inside, and demand to be shared--but also demand to be kept secret.  So you're faced with a battle in your own head, about wanting to tell someone, and being too terrified to do so at the same time.  Knowing that you're going to die is a great way to win that battle (or lose, depending on how you look at it) and tell someone.  Assuming that the person or people you tell aren't utterly heartless, usually there's some kind of release that follows (catharsis); it may last, or it may build up again until you are fighting the battle once more.  I would say the "terrible consequences" would have been to die with this completely unresolved.

 

And a further argument on the "Kaladin and Shallan? No way!" ship!

 

Kaladin is almost positive he killed Shallan's beloved brother.  He had the chance to tell her, and he didn't.  In a time when they were sharing close memories, scarring tragedies that had affected them.  She may have been able to forgive him then, had he explained all of it, but I doubt she would find it easy to get past that.

[kari-no-sugata]

Going back to the original question: the most common reason I see cited against Kaladin + Shallan is that they're the main male/female characters (currently). Now, I would complain about this argument being shallow... but what it's really saying is "we don't want the predictable, boring and all-too-common choice yet again, thank you very much", which I can certainly agree with.

 

I don't think the fact that Kaladin killed Shallan's brother will be a "deal breaker" by itself. Shallan has kinda half-forgiven Amaran, though there's certainly some anger/resentment left. If this does become a problem I think it would be most likely because either Kaladin feels guilty about it and makes some bad choices because of it and/or Shallan is angry with Kaladin for obviously knowing about it but not telling her. It may come to light (to Shallan) with the worst possible timing but I think this would be a short lived issue between them.

 

So, what about their spren? Rather frustratingly we never get to see Pattern and Syl meet. Could their spren make a relationship impossible? We just don't have enough info here but I do have an interesting observation - Shallan and Syl have fairly similar personalities (though with significant differences too). They both contrast very strongly with Kaladin and they do so in quite similar ways. Pattern contrasts with Shallan too but in a very different way to Kaladin and not nearly so strongly. I've seen a few posters hoping that Shallan and Kaladin could end up friends - I can quite easily see Shallan and Syl having a sister like relationship.

 

I think if Shallan and Kaladin were marooned alone on an island I could see them having a strong long term relationship. However, what they're facing is rather the opposite - they're going to be deluged by events. Difficult events. Painful events. Even if it doesn't directly involve them or people they know they've effectively taken up the task to try to save the world. They're going to have to make many decisions with no obviously correct answer. They might share very similar goals but their approach may just be too dissimilar and they would have strong opinions as well. I don't know for certain that this will be the case but their personalities and outlook on life are very different. I suspect the same thing would prevent them from being close friends too.

 

I certainly don't think any possible romantic relationship between them is doomed. If future books do explore this possibility seriously then I think they would make a very interesting couple - I highly enjoyed nearly all the scenes they had together so far (though I don't quite like the "boots" scene - felt a bit forced/unnecessary). I'm not against them being a couple but I think it quite a long shot as things stand.

 

[Guest]

Also not sure what the "terrible consequences" would have been had she not shared, could you elaborate?  I'll certainly agree that the measure of danger accelerated Kaladin and Shallan to the point that they could share such things, a point at which Adolin and Shallan may take a longer time to reach, but I disagree that Shallan would have shared with just anybody.  I mean, put some other male character in Kaladin's place, would she still have felt comfortable enough to share?  Would she still share if it had been say...Gaz she was clutching to?  Renarin?  Dalinar?  Lopen? (ok, maybe Lopen).  During this scene, she has no intention initially of sharing, but it is Kaladin himself, and his story she insisted on hearing from him that drew her own demons out into the open.  

 

 

OK I responded to this earlier, but I must have deleted the whole thing by accident

 

By "terrible consequences", I meant hat hiding her abilities down in the chasm would have endangered their lifes. She did not want to tell Kaladin, but she was forced to do so as they struggled to survive. When she told him the whole story, they were trapped into this hole while a powerful highstorm was ragging outside: nobody survives being outside a highstorm, especially down in a chasm! She probably got taken away by the moment, she probably did not know if they would survive or if Kaladin would survive as he was quite injured. Yes, they shared, but I felt that sharing was triggered more by the circumstances than by the persons themselves. The thought of Kal potentially telling Adolin probably did not even crossed her mind.

 

I would also like to add that she never had any similar occasion to share with Adolin. We don't know how she would have behaved had she been stuck with him down in the chasm. So far, they had dates, they started to get to know each other, they are to the point where they start telling each others their dark secrets, but it does not mean they won't get there, in time. So far, Adolin and Shallan do have an interesting chemistry: she makes him laugh, he does not care she is smarter than him (he is attracted by just that), she does not care he is not as learned as she as long as he is willing to give it a try, he loves her wittiness, he loves how different she is than other woman, he is more himself with her than with any others, she is being pretty much herself with him, but we just can't expect her to spill all her secrets just now!

 

Besides, even now she is a Radiant, she clearly still wants a relationship with him.

[SmurfAquamarineBodies he/him]

@maxel: what DeployParachutes said we are fighting the same fight, though you mentioned kids so i understand, they make doing things... challenging. ( learnt that the hard way, looking after my sisters 6 children. ) Adolin is her best bet for happiness at the moment.

 

@DeployParachute: I'm sorry I completely forgot about what was discussed in that scene, probably should have fact checked, meh. Still don't think Shallan and Kaladin would work though, Kaladin is looking for someone he can protect and Shallan is looking for someone to provide stability and emotional support Not protection. Adolin IMO is her best bet for that so far, she would also be able to keep him on track through the next couple of books because it's going to get very rough very fast for him which is something he is not quite ready for. Renarin may be able to help him but not i think to the extent Shallan can, and Dalinar would fail miserably at providing support, he is going to have his hands full trying to unite everyone.

[king of nowhere]

Hmm, interesting thoughts on Kaladin and his lack of exposure to women during his soldiering days as well as his hormone levels, but I would have to disagree on a few points.  

(snip cause it was really, really long)

I never wanted to imply kaladin is not in control of his emotions. If he was, he'd have tried to woo shallan instead of realizing they are not for each other. Just like bravery do not mean "feel no fear" but "feel fear and shove it aside", so being in control of one's hormones don't mean "is not attacted by specific members of the appropriate sex", but "is attracted but do not lose the ability to think rationally because of it".

So, as for kaladin's exposure to women: yes, he certainly saw many, but most of them were no more than business relations. With how many did he have some kind of real connection? true, we don't know much, but I see kaladin as the lone wolf kind of guy. notice how all his friends are also his military subordinates, which makes things a bit awkward as far as friendship goes. He also never showed much inclination to seek women. as far as we know, it is likely tarah was unique, not one of many girlfriends he had. We don't even know how much their relation progressed; he mention "failing" her, so she probably left him after a while.

Of course there are plenty of prostitutes in the military, but we never see kaladin being intersted in them, and he used all his money in bribes anyway. But, most compelling, this is brandon sanderson writing the book; can you imagine him writing a main character who went with prostitutes regularly?

So yes, kaladin had certainly many women around, but he probably never bonded much with them (except tarah). Then he get stuck with shallan in the chasm, and learns to go over her light eyes. they have the kind of experience that really make people bond, they are forced to hug each other because the alcove was small and they were freezing anyway, they share some deep confessions (they were the right people to do so, but they were also strongly influenced by the situation; can you imagine them opening up to each other under any other circumstance?). As a result, kaladin get a hormonal rush from shallan. as he is in control of his hormones, he recognizes they are not right for each other and that shallan fits better with adolin. But while the bond they formed in the chasm was genuine, the atttraction he felt for her seemed more like the result of the situation.

[Kogiopsis she/her]

Somewhat tangential to the current debate, but I wanted to bring up a specific part of the chasm scene since DeployParachute quoted it above and no one's brought up a certain aspect of it...

 

 

He listened with wonder.  Storms.  Why wasn't this woman broken, truly broken?  She described herself that way, but she was no more broken than a spear with a chipped blade, and a spear like that could still be as sharp a weapon as any.

 

As readers, we know that Kaladin is completely wrong here.  He's buying into Shallan's facade, the one we've seen her put up over and over throughout the book - not the false confidence that they'll survive the chasm, as has previously been mentioned, but the way she resolutely and internally refuses to acknowledge and work through her past.  Short of Pattern forcing her to confront it she barely even acknowledges some of the most traumatic parts of her life, and even then she's never gone through a healing process, moving as she did straight from her mother's death to trying to hold the rest of her family together (and her mother's death was caused by her Radiant abilities, not the cause of them, so there must have been something even earlier in her life that 'broke' her initially).

 

Shallan is not a psychologically healthy person, nor is she guaranteed to be a stable one, for all she pretends to be both, and Kaladin's awe of her is based on the same pretense that keeps her from progressing by dealing with her past.  That's not healthy for either of them.

[Guest]

@maxel: what DeployParachutes said we are fighting the same fight, though you mentioned kids so i understand, they make doing things... challenging. ( learnt that the hard way, looking after my sisters 6 children. ) Adolin is her best bet for happiness at the moment.

 

Your sister has 6 kids? Wow, I admired her. I have two and they are a hand full.... This morning, as I was trying to simply drink my coffee while losing some time on the Internet, my 15 months old son wouldn't stop pressing the Blu-Ray button which kept on stopping the Saturday morning cartoon my 3 and half years old daughter was trying to watch. What a dramatic event. She clearly overstated the importance of Dora. *Sight*

 

 

 

@DeployParachute: I'm sorry I completely forgot about what was discussed in that scene, probably should have fact checked, meh. Still don't think Shallan and Kaladin would work though, Kaladin is looking for someone he can protect and Shallan is looking for someone to provide stability and emotional support Not protection. Adolin IMO is her best bet for that so far, she would also be able to keep him on track through the next couple of books because it's going to get very rough very fast for him which is something he is not quite ready for. Renarin may be able to help him but not i think to the extent Shallan can, and Dalinar would fail miserably at providing support, he is going to have his hands full trying to unite everyone.

 

I agree although I wonder at how much involved Shallan will be in the trauma Adolin will most likely endure. I suspect their relationship will, temporarily end, in book 3 as I suspect Adolin will believe it has ended... He so much expects every single girl to break with him, as soon as Shallan will become more distant due to her other obligations, he will take that as a sign the relationship is ending. He won't be in a good mind state and may be overreacting slightly. However, I sincerely hope Shallan will come to realize what is happening and will promptly batch up things.

 

I agree Shallan may be able to provide support. I agree Renarin won't be so good as he will be caught up with Glys. I agree Dalinar will not provide any support at all. In fact, I am suspecting Dalinar won't even notice something is wrong with Adolin: he won't notice he is not feeling the Thrill anymore (and thus will keep on sending him doing butchery out there), he won't notice something is seriously bothering his son, he won't notice he is having a heart break, basically he'll just get angry at finding Adolin killed Sadeas, but he won't see all else that is going on. By the time he understands, it will be too late.

[Chrono she/her]

 Still don't think Shallan and Kaladin would work though, Kaladin is looking for someone he can protect and Shallan is looking for someone to provide stability and emotional support Not protection.

 

I suggest you take a long hard look at the Second Ideal of the Windrunners:

 

I will protect those who cannot protect themselves. (Emphasis mine)

 

A lot of people bring this bit up as evidence of the Shalladin ship not working, but I highly disagree. As noted by the bold point up there, the crucial part of that Ideal (besides protecting people, obviously) is that the people they protect cannot protect themselves. Shallan is perfectly capable of protecting herself, as noted in numerous scenes where she is in mortal danger (after TWoK). 

 

Also, if you have further doubt, Kaladin's tone while listening to Shallan's story is not one of pity or protection, but of awe. He never once thinks "This poor girl has been through too much. I think I'll just protect her and keep her safe from this cruel, cruel world." Instead, it's more along the lines of, "Damnation! She's been through so much and she can still smile after all of that? She's tough! I want to be like her!" Perhaps I've overly simplified that, but that's my interpretation of the scene. 

 

Off the top of my head, I've never seen Kaladin express one iota of desire for protecting Shallan except in one scene, and that was in passing along with an entire list of people who were going out to face an army of Parshendi. And it was more of a "Come back safe, okay? Please?" 

 

If this trend continues, Shallan and Kaladin will not be kept apart because he's too protecting. That's more of Adolin's problem, as expressed by the famous scene in WoR. 

[Guest]

That's more of Adolin's problem, as expressed by the famous scene in WoR. 

 

To Adolin's defense, he could not know about Shallan feared of being over-sheltered... He does not know about her past, about her father. He just said what EVERY girl would want to hear after being forced to spend a highstorm down in the chasm! Most people would not look back at the experience as if it was trivial, they would be slightly unnerved and yes they would appreciated Adolin's strong arms for comforting. Shallan just seemed happy it prompted Adolin to kiss her.............. She even seemed thrilled about the whole experience when she talked to him, which must have been something Adolin did not expect...

 

She snaps at him, yes, and he lays back. Later on, when Dalinar tried to protect Shallan by preventing her to go on the Shattered Plains because it is too dangerous, especially after what she's bee through, who comes to her defense and plead to let her come? Adolin. So yes, he is capable of understanding.

[king of nowhere]

I think most men have an instinct to protecct their loved ones. not sure how much is cultural and how much genetic, but it's a normal reaction for most. the difference between being protective and patronizing is that a healty protective instinct do not try to shackle the girl or force her to stay away from harm, while patronizing will boss the girl around. it's different the message conveyed: "i'm here if you need" in the first case, "you can't look for yourself" in the second.  i don't have the book here, but i really got the impression adolin has mostly the first kind with shallan.

[SmurfAquamarineBodies he/him]

I think most men have an instinct to protecct their loved ones. not sure how much is cultural and how much genetic, but it's a normal reaction for most. the difference between being protective and patronizing is that a healty protective instinct do not try to shackle the girl or force her to stay away from harm, while patronizing will boss the girl around. it's different the message conveyed: "i'm here if you need" in the first case, "you can't look for yourself" in the second.  i don't have the book here, but i really got the impression adolin has mostly the first kind with shallan.

 

I agree that Adolin has that with Shallan. Which is IMO what she needs, someone who can provide emotional support. I don't think Kaladin is ready for that yet, he is still damaged by his past.

What I was trying to say before, but obviously failing ( All aboard the struggle bus. Destination, struggle city. Population, me ) was that Kaladin is not looking for a person who is unable to look after themselves but someone who he can succeed at protecting and teach to defend themselves. ( someone who is not a Knight, someone 'normal' who will come into their own as a strong character. Without being 'magical' )

This is definitely not Shallan, but I would bet that Tarah fits the bill.

[DeployParachute]

 

2.  Have you ever been forced to do something that you weren't really sure about and it turned out to be the absolute best thing ever??!  Sure, she went along with the marriage betrothal thing to help her family, secure finances, get assassins off her back, etc.  Maybe not the best of reasons, but she never once lied about it or hid the truth; she was, in fact, brutally honest and up front about the reasons.  These reasons are, by and large, moot by the end of WoR--but she is fighting for the relationship because it actually means something more to her.  Adolin knows why it started, and he knows that circumstances changed, and so he really wasn't sure if she was still interested in him or not, if what he had to offer was something she still wanted (and I mean beyond wealth or fame or whatever; the intangible things that are so necessary for a good relationship to work.  Like making her laugh when she's sad.)  Maybe we don't know why Shallan wants the relationship so much, but we do know that she does want it--and they seem to work very, very well together from what I'v seen.

 

3.  Kaladin is good at reading people's motivations and seeing who they are as long as they are not lighteyes.  I believe that every time he seriously misjudges someone, or misinterprets something, or just gets it all wrong--is because lighteyes were involved.  As he slowly (so very, very, excruciatingly slowly) gets over his (justifiable) prejudice against them, his blinders will slowly be removed. 

 

4.  I absolutely, vehemently disagree that Shallan is powerfully convinced that they will survive the chasm.  Not for real.  It is as faked and forced as is her confidence when she convinced the deserters to join her and save the caravan, as when she faced the Ghostbloods, or when she met with the Highprinces just after arriving, and made Selabriel take her in.  It's a false confidence that you must maintain absolutely--and if you let one pessimistic, angsty bodyguard wear it down even a little, then it may shatter completely and leave you a quivering, weeping wreck until you die.  At least, that's how it is for me, and so that's how I read it; given some of the strong similarities between myself and Shallan, it just felt right

 

5.  Some secrets are toxic and poison to keep inside, and demand to be shared--but also demand to be kept secret.  So you're faced with a battle in your own head, about wanting to tell someone, and being too terrified to do so at the same time.  Knowing that you're going to die is a great way to win that battle (or lose, depending on how you look at it) and tell someone.  Assuming that the person or people you tell aren't utterly heartless, usually there's some kind of release that follows (catharsis); it may last, or it may build up again until you are fighting the battle once more.  I would say the "terrible consequences" would have been to die with this completely unresolved.

 

And a further argument on the "Kaladin and Shallan? No way!" ship!

 

Kaladin is almost positive he killed Shallan's beloved brother.  He had the chance to tell her, and he didn't.  In a time when they were sharing close memories, scarring tragedies that had affected them.  She may have been able to forgive him then, had he explained all of it, but I doubt she would find it easy to get past that.

 

Hey, thanks for adding the numbers, you must have done this before 

 

2. Yes, the first time I tried sushi.  I certainly agree with your point that Shallan was very upfront about her motivations, not going to deny that.  I would just restate my point is the jury is still out on whether Adolin still offers what Shallan wants.  Brandon does not spend a whole lot of time after their "changed circumstances" exploring what is running through Shallan's head concerning her and Adolin.  We have the scene just after she meets Mraize in Urithuru where she and Adolin share some good dialogue, and a very passionate (if painful for Adolin) kiss, but no time is spent inside her head exploring how her feelings may have changed regarding their new situation.  Let's just say her actions certainly indicate there are things she still wants that Adolin is offering.  I am just of the opinion that those particular things will become less important as she begins to understand herself more.  Much like my ever growing palate with food, Shallan's tastes for romantic relationships will grow and mature.  Will Adolin measure up to her new expectations, we shall see.  Also, I could not seem to find text in the book in which Shallan was feeling particularly sad when Adolin made her laugh.  I actually don't seem to recall a single scene in which she has been sad or mopey or depressed around him.  Did I miss one?

 

3.  Eh, I would say he gets the measure of most lighteyes as well.  Consider that we are spoiled by our time with our main POV lighteyed characters, who certainly don't meet with Kaladin's expectations.  Again, his interactions with these certain characters all contribute in part to his character arc for the book: acknowledging his own prejudices, and how they should not impact his actions to protect.  Also, I feel compelled to point out that some of our favorite lighteyed characters also indulge in their own prejudices.  Let's take Adolin for example:  yes, he treats his darkeyed subordinates with respect.  He'll lead them effectively, show compassion for them, let some of the younger soldier boys try on his armor.  But all these interactions are done with a social barrier still effectively in place.  Adolin deals with them knowing that ultimately, they have their place and he has his, and as long as that is not upset in any way, it doesn't bother him.  Enter Kaladin, who didn't give Adolin his due respect according to his birth, and is now stepping outside the bounds of what Adolin considers appropriate for his station.  So how how does Adolin react to this?  By treating Kaladin with derision and contempt for the beginning third of the book.  It took Adolin getting a measure of Kaladin for his prejudices to change, just like Kaladin needed to do the same, though it took Kaladin much longer to come to that point.  I'll give Kaladin a pass on this, since his last major misjudgment of a lighteyes sent him into slavery for almost a year.    

 

4/5.  Ok, I'll agree that Shallan is not completely certain of her own survival.  But I'll also point out that she is playing some of her other secrets pretty close to her chest under the expectation that she may survive (her surgebinding for one).  Looking at it this way, I feel it is a bit unfair to say that her whole motivation in divulging this secret was due to her possible impending death.  I understand others read this whole scene differently than I, but I still choose to believe that Brandon wrote it to convey something unique about Kaladin that brought out such a dark secret from Shallan.  Again, I try my exercise of plugging any other character in that scene with her and imagine the same result coming out, and I can't, though according to the "she was afraid of dying with no one knowing" argument, anyone should do.

 

OK I responded to this earlier, but I must have deleted the whole thing by accident

 

By "terrible consequences", I meant hat hiding her abilities down in the chasm would have endangered their lifes. She did not want to tell Kaladin, but she was forced to do so as they struggled to survive. When she told him the whole story, they were trapped into this hole while a powerful highstorm was ragging outside: nobody survives being outside a highstorm, especially down in a chasm! She probably got taken away by the moment, she probably did not know if they would survive or if Kaladin would survive as he was quite injured. Yes, they shared, but I felt that sharing was triggered more by the circumstances than by the persons themselves. The thought of Kal potentially telling Adolin probably did not even crossed her mind.

 

I would also like to add that she never had any similar occasion to share with Adolin. We don't know how she would have behaved had she been stuck with him down in the chasm. So far, they had dates, they started to get to know each other, they are to the point where they start telling each others their dark secrets, but it does not mean they won't get there, in time. So far, Adolin and Shallan do have an interesting chemistry: she makes him laugh, he does not care she is smarter than him (he is attracted by just that), she does not care he is not as learned as she as long as he is willing to give it a try, he loves her wittiness, he loves how different she is than other woman, he is more himself with her than with any others, she is being pretty much herself with him, but we just can't expect her to spill all her secrets just now!

 

Besides, even now she is a Radiant, she clearly still wants a relationship with him.

 

Cool, thanks for clarifying, see my response (4/5) to kaellok above.  For the record, I will acknowledge that it is entirely possible that she would have divulged the same information to Adolin as she did Kaladin.  I just don't know how he would have put himself in an emotionally vulnerable enough position to where she felt like she could share.

 

 

@DeployParachute: I'm sorry I completely forgot about what was discussed in that scene, probably should have fact checked, meh. Still don't think Shallan and Kaladin would work though, Kaladin is looking for someone he can protect and Shallan is looking for someone to provide stability and emotional support Not protection. Adolin IMO is her best bet for that so far, she would also be able to keep him on track through the next couple of books because it's going to get very rough very fast for him which is something he is not quite ready for. Renarin may be able to help him but not i think to the extent Shallan can, and Dalinar would fail miserably at providing support, he is going to have his hands full trying to unite everyone.

 

Also cool, I respect your opinion.  Would also add to be careful about stating with certainty what Kaladin or Shallan is looking for.  At this point, we really don't know what Kaladin is looking for in a romantic relationship.  Actually, scratch that, we have lots of textual evidence indicating that Shallan has many qualities and attributes he finds appealing.  However, none of those involve him finding her someone who is in need of "protection".  As for Shallan, I always read her desire for financial and political security as being centered around caring for her family and it's future, not necessarily for her own benefit.  It also was a means for her to be secure in pursuing her scholarship.  I never took it for what she actually desires, because she seems to be written as a character who does not know or is only just discovering what she wants (and not just romantically).  As for the emotional support, we can't say that she is actually "looking" for it.  This is more likely our understanding of her as a character and what we as readers think would be best for her at this point.  Shallan's opinion on the matter may be entirely different.

 

I never wanted to imply kaladin is not in control of his emotions. If he was, he'd have tried to woo shallan instead of realizing they are not for each other. Just like bravery do not mean "feel no fear" but "feel fear and shove it aside", so being in control of one's hormones don't mean "is not attacted by specific members of the appropriate sex", but "is attracted but do not lose the ability to think rationally because of it".

So, as for kaladin's exposure to women: yes, he certainly saw many, but most of them were no more than business relations. With how many did he have some kind of real connection? true, we don't know much, but I see kaladin as the lone wolf kind of guy. notice how all his friends are also his military subordinates, which makes things a bit awkward as far as friendship goes. He also never showed much inclination to seek women. as far as we know, it is likely tarah was unique, not one of many girlfriends he had. We don't even know how much their relation progressed; he mention "failing" her, so she probably left him after a while.

Of course there are plenty of prostitutes in the military, but we never see kaladin being intersted in them, and he used all his money in bribes anyway. But, most compelling, this is brandon sanderson writing the book; can you imagine him writing a main character who went with prostitutes regularly?

So yes, kaladin had certainly many women around, but he probably never bonded much with them (except tarah). Then he get stuck with shallan in the chasm, and learns to go over her light eyes. they have the kind of experience that really make people bond, they are forced to hug each other because the alcove was small and they were freezing anyway, they share some deep confessions (they were the right people to do so, but they were also strongly influenced by the situation; can you imagine them opening up to each other under any other circumstance?). As a result, kaladin get a hormonal rush from shallan. as he is in control of his hormones, he recognizes they are not right for each other and that shallan fits better with adolin. But while the bond they formed in the chasm was genuine, the atttraction he felt for her seemed more like the result of the situation.

 

Okay, maybe I misunderstood what you were trying to convey.  Your previous posts indicated to me you were arguing that it was only Kaladin's libido (and his lack of experience dealing with it) that made him respond to Shallan in a romantic sense, and I disagree strongly with that.  If that wasn't your argument, sorry my mistake.  Concerning the exposure Kaladin has to women previous to Shallan, I certainly wasn't indicating it was likely he visited whores.  I was highlighting that he has seen women, and he has most likely seen attractive women, and as a young man, that certainly is going to set things off for him.  I don't know about anyone else, but when I was younger, it didn't matter if they were a friend, a coworker, a stranger, or a "business associate".  If I saw someone who I found attractive, sometimes that was all it took to trigger a physiological reaction.  I assume it was the same for Kaladin, and thus I conclude he certainly had plenty of times dealing with hormones well before he and Shallan ended up in that alcove.  Again, nothing in the text indicates to me that it is his hormones or libido that have triggered such positive thoughts towards Shallan, but instead the qualities that Shallan herself has presented.

 

Somewhat tangential to the current debate, but I wanted to bring up a specific part of the chasm scene since DeployParachute quoted it above and no one's brought up a certain aspect of it...

 

As readers, we know that Kaladin is completely wrong here.  He's buying into Shallan's facade, the one we've seen her put up over and over throughout the book - not the false confidence that they'll survive the chasm, as has previously been mentioned, but the way she resolutely and internally refuses to acknowledge and work through her past.  Short of Pattern forcing her to confront it she barely even acknowledges some of the most traumatic parts of her life, and even then she's never gone through a healing process, moving as she did straight from her mother's death to trying to hold the rest of her family together (and her mother's death was caused by her Radiant abilities, not the cause of them, so there must have been something even earlier in her life that 'broke' her initially).

 

Shallan is not a psychologically healthy person, nor is she guaranteed to be a stable one, for all she pretends to be both, and Kaladin's awe of her is based on the same pretense that keeps her from progressing by dealing with her past.  That's not healthy for either of them.

 

Thanks for sharing, and to be honest, this post actually had me thinking quite a bit about that scene again, so thank you so much for showing me this, as it is the reason I took so long to respond to other comments in general.

 

Having said that, however, I have still come to the conclusion that I disagree.  I do not think Kaladin is completely wrong here for what he sees.  First, the text in the previous Kaladin Shallan chapters marks Kaladin as an excellent Shallan BS detector.  Ok, maybe not "excellent", but he is certainly a lot better at it than a lot of other characters.  Second, I honestly believe that this scene was written as an honest moment for both of them, which is why it was one of my favorites in the book.  I believe that Shallan has lowered her facade for this one moment, not so much for Kaladin's benefit, but for her own.  I read this scene as Shallan finally taking a moment to reach back and look at her past, something she had not really done much of to this point.  I also read this as being a moment of healing (or catharsis as others have put it) for Shallan.  Certainly not all of the healing that is going to get her to a mentally healthy state, but it is a start.  Kind of like a first trip to a therapist: you have to start with knocking down at least one wall, and then hopefully upon successive visits, others will start to follow.  I read this scene as a moment in which Kaladin's honesty, sincerity, and vulnerability about his own past triggered in Shallan a desire to dig into her own.  

 

Now, whether this leads to romantic feelings between the two is anyone's guess.  But there is something here, and I believe that it will at least be explored.

 

TL;DR - I have too much time on my hands this holiday weekend...

Edited May 25, 2014 by DeployParachute

[DeployParachute]

Also,

 

 As a result, kaladin get a hormonal rush from shallan. as he is in control of his hormones, he recognizes they are not right for each other and that shallan fits better with adolin. But while the bond they formed in the chasm was genuine, the atttraction he felt for her seemed more like the result of the situation.

 

The scene:

 

 

Words of Radiance, ch 76 "The Hidden Blade", p 929, U.S. Hardback

 

He waited , hoping that she'd look toward him, meet his eyes across the short distance.

She didn't.  She rode on, and Kaladin felt like an utter fool.  A part of him wanted to hate Adolin for holding her attention, but he found that he couldn't.  The truth was, he liked Adolin.  And those two were good for one another.  They fit.

Perhaps Kaladin could hate that. 

 

Come on.  Have you never seen the woman you like, care about, love with someone else, and then lied to yourself about how things were better this way?  I have, and I am like, 99.9994% certain that is what is going on here.  

 

Also, if his feelings for her were simply the result of the situation...then why is he still feeling them well after the danger has passed?

 

Regardless of where Shallan and Adolin go, Kaladin certainly isn't done dealing with his feelings for her.

[Sun]

Somewhat tangential to the current debate, but I wanted to bring up a specific part of the chasm scene since DeployParachute quoted it above and no one's brought up a certain aspect of it...

 

As readers, we know that Kaladin is completely wrong here.  He's buying into Shallan's facade, the one we've seen her put up over and over throughout the book - not the false confidence that they'll survive the chasm, as has previously been mentioned, but the way she resolutely and internally refuses to acknowledge and work through her past.  Short of Pattern forcing her to confront it she barely even acknowledges some of the most traumatic parts of her life, and even then she's never gone through a healing process, moving as she did straight from her mother's death to trying to hold the rest of her family together (and her mother's death was caused by her Radiant abilities, not the cause of them, so there must have been something even earlier in her life that 'broke' her initially).

 

Shallan is not a psychologically healthy person, nor is she guaranteed to be a stable one, for all she pretends to be both, and Kaladin's awe of her is based on the same pretense that keeps her from progressing by dealing with her past.  That's not healthy for either of them.

 

Going to have to disagree with you here. I cannot recall the exact passages, but there were 2 occassions where Pattern declares she "cracked" where others would have completely broken. She is fractured and damaged but not broken in the way she believes. At least, that's how I interpreted it.

Edited May 25, 2014 by Sun

[Guest]

Cool, thanks for clarifying, see my response (4/5) to kaellok above.  For the record, I will acknowledge that it is entirely possible that she would have divulged the same information to Adolin as she did Kaladin.  I just don't know how he would have put himself in an emotionally vulnerable enough position to where she felt like she could share.

 

 

Post-WoR Adolin will probably reach an emotionally vulnerable enough position at some point. Kaladin has been broken and has started to recover, with scars yes, but still, he has recovered when Shallan made the confession. Post-WoR Adolin will most probably break down in a a very bad way. He'll be at his lowest, lower than Shallan ever saw Kal. We'll see plenty of angst there so Shallan may find plenty of opportunities to share. We will see then if she is willing to do so with him or if she will just brush him aside in favor of Kal. As far as I know, both could happen, but I am routing for a Shallan/Adolin pairing.

Edited May 25, 2014 by maxal

[Kogiopsis she/her]

Going to have to disagree with you here. I cannot recall the exact passages, but there were 2 occassions where Pattern declares she "cracked" where others would have completely broken. She is fractured and damaged but not broken in the way she believes. At least, that's how I interpreted it.

 

I'd agree that she's not broken in the way that she believes, buuut I still don't think that makes her stable - witness the times when she effectively blanked out when Pattern brought up her past.  Shallan's estimate of her own brokenness is based on the parts of her background that she chooses to acknowledge, and may not incorporate the parts that she's still in deep denial over.

 

I also think that part of the contradiction of Shallan's character is that her unhealthy coping mechanisms are what have made her survival possible thus far.  She  managed, to a great degree, to hold her family together - at the cost of not dealing with her own psychological burdens.  It's a case of trading long-term gain for short-term benefit, and I firmly expect to see it come back to bite her.  (Actually, at this point Shallan is my pick for the 'destroyer' mentioned on the back cover of WoK - she's the  most ambiguously positioned, and it would be more narratively interesting than, say, Szeth.)

[kaellok he/him]

 (Actually, at this point Shallan is my pick for the 'destroyer' mentioned on the back cover of WoK - she's the  most ambiguously positioned, and it would be more narratively interesting than, say, Szeth.)

I thought that it was pretty blatantly clear that Eshonai was the 'destroyer.'  You know, summoning the Everstorm and all of that.

[Kogiopsis she/her]

I thought that it was pretty blatantly clear that Eshonai was the 'destroyer.'  You know, summoning the Everstorm and all of that.

 

Can't be; she's not among the listed characters in that text.  The destroyer has to be one of the core 4 POV characters:  Kaladin, Dalinar, Shallan, or Szeth.

 

Granted, the rationale that leads me to think Shallan is a good option is founded on the idea that whoever wrote that is aligned with the protagonists - it could just as easily be someone with goals counter to Our Heroes, in which case their perspective on redeemers and destroyers would be completely different.

[Guest]

 

I thought that it was pretty blatantly clear that Eshonai was the 'destroyer.'  You know, summoning the Everstorm and all of that.

We didn't know of Eshonai in WoK.... It would be indeed wicked if Shallan ends up being the Destroyer. I do not know how I feel about this. I

am not a huge fan of Shallan, but I do care enough about her to not want to see fall to the evil side.

[kaellok he/him]

Can't be; she's not among the listed characters in that text.  The destroyer has to be one of the core 4 POV characters:  Kaladin, Dalinar, Shallan, or Szeth.

 

Granted, the rationale that leads me to think Shallan is a good option is founded on the idea that whoever wrote that is aligned with the protagonists - it could just as easily be someone with goals counter to Our Heroes, in which case their perspective on redeemers and destroyers would be completely different.

 

Hmm, I'm at work so don't have my books now...but I thought that the "destroyer" was from the back of WoR?

 

Edit: Apparently not.  So, I will ret-con my previous post to say that Szeth is obviously the destroyer!  He slices, he dices, he kills without hesitation!  And he can be yours for the low-low price of obtaining his Oathstone!  That's all it takes, folks; he's thrown kingdoms into anarchy, his actions have destabilized the world, and now you can have him for your very own...but only if you act now!

 

_{Supplies are limited. Limit one per customer.  No refunds. Not responsible for world being destroyed.  Buyer assumes all responsibility for the results of Szeth's actions.  As the wielder of Nightblood, he may no longer be bound to the Oathstone, and may instead kill you if you order him around.  Buyer assumes all risk for this regard.  Void where prohibited by law, and in the state of Massachusetts.  Employees of Nalan may not participate in this one-time limited offer.}

Edited May 26, 2014 by kaellok

[Kogiopsis she/her]

Hmm, I'm at work so don't have my books now...but I thought that the "destroyer" was from the back of WoR?

 

Nope!  You may be thinking of the Explorer, which did refer to Eshonai.  Here's the dust jacket text from WoR.

[FeatherWriter she/her]

I, unsurprisingly, agree with Kogi. Shallan has a lot of psychological issues that she is only just now starting to work through. Shallan's brokenness is very different from Kaladin's brokenness, which he misinterprets as a lack of brokeness, when it is not. Whenever Shallan's past is mentioned, she blanks, even when we're in her point of view. We don't know how much time has passed, but we get the impression that there certainly is time passing.

 

There are points where Pattern will mention her past and the next paragraph is a narrative elipsis, before the narration then continues as though Pattern hadn't spoken at all. The things that Shallan has done have scarred her deeply and while she has managed to cope and present a façade of a healthy mental state, she has achieved that in very unhealthy ways, which Pattern is seeking to help her break down and heal from. 

 

Sometimes I feel as though Shallan and her brothers believe that she's the one who "escaped" the abuse of the family. They think that she made it out unscathed, just because she wasn't physically abused the way the rest of them were. But the way Shallan was emotionally abused has left her indescribably damaged and with a lot of really terrible coping mechanisms.

[king of nowhere]

 

Come on.  Have you never seen the woman you like, care about, love with someone else, and then lied to yourself about how things were better this way?  I have, and I am like, 99.9994% certain that is what is going on here.  

 

You never felt attracted to a girl recently met after having some fun/meaningful experience together, fancied her a bit, and then realized as you get to know her better that she wouldn't really make a good fit for you?

 

I assure you, in my life the kind of situation I described is much more common than the kind of situation you described.

[kari-no-sugata]

Until this thread I hadn't wondered why Shallan told Kaladin all that she did during the highstorm. As I've said previously in this thread I don't think she had any particular "need" to do it. We don't see her reflect on it later. My reading of the scene is that she mostly wanted a distraction from the terror of the storm - if she really thought she was going to die she would try to do something about it. Of course, that doesn't explain why Shallan chose to tell Kaladin that she killed her own father. I would guess that it was a combination of factors rather than any one big factor. I suspect if we could ask Shallan she might not give a big long explanation and could just simply say "it felt right".

 

Regarding the discussion on Kaladin's thought that Shallan is "stronger" than him, this was something I started wondering about some weeks ago. It's very hard to quantify such a thing. It's also highly dependant on the situation. Kaladin's reaction seems to be more like "I could never have handled her situation without breaking". He doesn't seem to consider if the reverse would be true - if we imagine a male version of Shallan, would such a person have been able to handle Kaladin's situation without breaking? My guess would be "yes" but I don't think she would necessarily have handled it better.

 

There's also many different kinds of strength - the mental resilience to be able to handle a terrible situation without breaking is just one kind. Due to their focus on the inner self, I could imagine that Lightweavers would be mentally stronger than most Radiants but that's just an average and it certainly doesn't mean that Shallan is automatically the strongest mentally. My feeling is that Szeth is the strongest mentally, at least of the characters we've seen viewpoints of.

 

But this is not to say that Szeth or Shallan have true mental strength yet - Dalinar seems closest to that. Shallan has a very clear fault-line (as it were) running through WoR - that simply being reminded of her mother's death can cause her to completely freeze. This was happening several times a day (it seems) shortly after the event and there's one definite case of it happening outside the flashbacks (maybe more). It's never spelled out explicitly but it's clear that she learned to cope with it by avoiding it as much as possible - focus on the future not the past, focus on what she can do, etc. She doesn't actually erase the memory though - she's aware of what she did in a hazy way - which is why it can still freeze her.

 

Shallan certainly has an interesting collection of coping mechanisms: distracting herself, using humour, forcing herself to keep a positive mindset and hope for the future, finding things to enjoy, avoiding things that trouble her (particularly regarding her mother), trying to help her family and allowing herself to be insane. She also seems to get some solace from religion - makes me wonder how she will react to finding that The Almighty is dead. She did all this with practically no help or support so it's hardly surprising she's messed up still. She did get a bit of help from Helaran for a while and once from Wit/Hoid (she remembers him well because she got some real help, if only briefly).

 

Allow my to expand on my "allowing herself to be insane" line. This is really based on this scene from chapter 60 that starts with this (I'm not going to quote the whole thing):

"Would you have me unable to laugh?" she demanded, suddenly holding back tears. "Would you have me crippled? That is what those memories would do to me. I can be what I am because I cut them off."

 

She's clearly thought about this. I doubt she planned it to turn out that way but this combined with some other comments makes me think she'd rather be "insane but useful" than "sane but useless" - Pattern asks her if she's "mad" (ie insane) at one point and she says yes. She jokingly refers to herself as insane to Kaladin but it's also based on how she sees herself, I think. It might be better to say that she's "relaxed about whether she is sane or not" rather than that truly considers herself to be insane (it's not like she wants to be insane).

 

I think this scene is about her real fear with Pattern forcing her to remember her mother - it's not the knowledge itself but the fear that she will be crippled by the memories, like they did in the past. A quite reasonable fear. It could also be argued that Pattern is quite brave (or foolhardy) to take the risk - he had a lot to lose by getting it wrong. It's not entirely clear but it seems that Shallan could cope with the memories well enough (we only see her briefly from Dalinar's point of view afterwards).

 

So, one coping mechanism down, several to go? Actually, I suspect she'll keep some - particularly her sense of humour - and others will shift a in a healthier direction.

[DeployParachute]

You never felt attracted to a girl recently met after having some fun/meaningful experience together, fancied her a bit, and then realized as you get to know her better that she wouldn't really make a good fit for you?

 

I assure you, in my life the kind of situation I described is much more common than the kind of situation you described.

 

Well sure, but I don't see how that situation applies to the discussion at hand, or supports your argument.  I would highly suggest you go read the pre-plains marching scene again.  Regardless of whether your described situation is more common than my described situation or vice versa, it doesn't change the text of what is going on in the book.  There is no scene in the book where Kaladin realizes Shallan isn't right for him (unless you can provide me with one?).  Instead, the closest thing we have is a scene where he is standing upon a rock among his bridgemen watching her pass, and hoping hoping hoping that she looks his way, to recognize and acknowledge him they way he seems to be doing with her, and when she doesn't, he pouts a little bit, gets mopey, and then tells himself he's being foolish and perhaps things are better the way they are.  That's not the thought process of someone who has realized a girl doesn't fit him, that is the thought process of someone who has decided he'd rather not deal with feelings of rejection at the time, so he'll tuck it far away where it can't bother him.

 

Perhaps if Brandon had only written "The truth was, he liked Adolin.  And those two were good for one another.  They fit."  I would be more inclined to agree with you.  But that is not the end of it.  Brandon added one more sentence, in its own paragraph after:  "Perhaps Kaladin could hate that.".  You see, that one sentence changes the entire tone of of Kaladin's thought process from "oh, but they are so good together, good for them" to "yeah, they may be good together, but I'm not happy about it."  Kaladin may try to fool himself into thinking she doesn't fit him, but he certainly doesn't believe it.

 

To add another argument against the idea that Kaladin has decided "Well, she doesn't really fit me, so I've let her go already" is that he also spends more time after the aforementioned scene thinking, positively I might add, about her.  

 

 

Words of Radiance, ch 80 To Fight the Rain, p964 U.S. Hardback

He fought the rain.  Did that make any sense? It seemed that the rain wanted him to stay inside, so he went out.  The rain wanted him to give in to the despair, so he forced himself to think.  Gorwing up, he'd had Tient to help lighten the gloom.  Now, even thinking of Tien increased that gloom instead--though he couldn't avoid it.

...

...

He splashed through puddles of water, and found himself smiling because he wore the boots Shallan had stolen from him.

I never did believe she was a Horneater, he thought.  I need to make sure she knows that.

 

 

Here he is, depressed, fighting his SAD (Seasonal Affect Disorder) in the riddens, and the only thing that makes him smile is thoughts of Shallan.  Come on, this dude is so obviously lovesick.  It's all tucked into these pages!  At the very least, I'm confident saying that Kaladin has not yet dismissed Shallan as not being right for him.  Maybe he'll come to that point in a future book, but he is certainly not there yet.  There is no textual evidence to support that.  To state that Kaladin has done something which we know he hasn't is a little disingenuous at this point.