Greywatch she/her Posted February 26, 2019 Posted February 26, 2019 Just now, Sedside said: Because she needs to face her truths and fears to progress, not to run from them. I think it's like what whole her arc is about. And not only hers. Facing her fears does not mean needing to be scared of them all the time, that'd be so cruel. People can't work through anything when they're living in terror. Moving past the fear is a great sign that she's truly conquering that Truth.
Sedside she/her Posted February 26, 2019 Posted February 26, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Greywatch said: Facing her fears does not mean needing to be scared of them all the time, that'd be so cruel. People can't work through anything when they're living in terror. Moving past the fear is a great sign that she's truly conquering that Truth. See, there is a sequence of how it works: There is something you fear. You face it, feeling terrified. You deal with your fear and adapt. ... PROFIT! You don't fear anymore. The sequence you offer is: There is something you fear. You run from it and wait, until you stop fearing. You face it and you still fear, because why in the Damnation you shouldn't fear, if you didn't face it? I mean, you need practice. You can't sit on the couch and grow muscles, you have to go to the gym and excercise. Edited February 26, 2019 by Sedside 2
Greywatch she/her Posted February 26, 2019 Posted February 26, 2019 Yes, and that has already happened. Shallan is terrified that she is a monster and that everyone who really gets to know her will see this. She was scared of letting Adolin in for this reason, but facing her fear, she did it anyway. Adolin accepted her, Shallan conquered this fear, and now Adolin is a safe place for her, hence, no more need for fear with him. I agree, there were steps, and they were followed. 3
Sedside she/her Posted February 26, 2019 Posted February 26, 2019 (edited) She is not scared of Adolin, she is scared of her truths. That's why they are thruths. If her thruth was "I love Adolin" I would understand you, but no, her truth is "I killed my mother", and she definitely couldn't face it. She created multiple personas for it. And she married Adolin to stick to that particular one, which doesn't have these issues. Anyway, it's running in circles again. So many of you like to keep telling, how much Brandon likes subverting readers' expectations, but when it comes to Adolin, you read it all at the face value. She said he knows her - then he knows. She said, she controls her state now - then she does. No subvertion. Everything as planned. All right, fine. So be it. I'm still gonna analyze text, search for hints, morale and philosophy in all of this. I'm going to make my own conslusions, taking into account everything I read in three books, not only on the couple of last pages of the last book. I don't buy it, especially not in a 3rd book of 5-book arc. And I am going to be ready, when Brandon subverts the expectations of 90% readers. Edited February 26, 2019 by Sedside 2
Calderis he/him Posted February 26, 2019 Posted February 26, 2019 The entire point of the Truth, like the oaths they take the place of, is progression. They are about self awareness and acceptance... But that doesn't mean that they are eternal and insurmountable. She may be fear driven, but she doesn't have to stay locked in a cycle of reactions to that fear. For a person so emotionally damaged that fear is their default state, a person or place who provides a respite from that fear does so for a reason. That isn't something that just happens. Adolin isn't some pacifier that's stifling her. Whether you think it was shown properly on screen or not, for him to have that effect on her, it has to be something he's proven to her and earned. I'll gladly let her have the respite, because being trapped in a cycle of fear is being trapped on a place that you cannot take the time to search yourself and heal. To face her fears she needs some semblance of peace, because her fears are internal. 3
Greywatch she/her Posted February 26, 2019 Posted February 26, 2019 I think we fundamentally disagree on the truths and what they mean, and it's really late, so I'm going to leave this here. Needless to say, being scared of the truth that she is scared is a tautology and I would find that to be so meaningless, it would ruin the Ideal system. 1
CrazyRioter she/her Posted February 26, 2019 Posted February 26, 2019 (edited) Nobody said she is or was scared of Adolin in particular. She's scared of what would happen if she let people in general see the real her, and if they knew about how she killed her parents. Adolin has begun to convince her that she can show at least some of her real self, behind the masks, and he will accept her. She's still not fully convinced she can be totally open with him, but I think she's moving in that direction. Edited February 26, 2019 by CrazyRioter 3
insert_anagram_here Posted February 26, 2019 Posted February 26, 2019 I think these are some very interesting WoBs about Shallan pointing out that her path isn't necessarily as straightforward as it may seem. You can interpret them however you like, but either way I think they are important to better understand Shallan as a character. Quote polaristar Not sure about my favorite scene in OB, but one I'd like to see drawn is Shallan when she's in the midst of her "experiment" to find out what Shamespren look like after occupied Kholinar. P.S Brandon was that scene inspired by an "fan-service comedic" moments in anime? Brandon Sanderson Not specifically, but perhaps unconsciously. I was simply looking for a way to make the conversation more interesting, and to remind readers that Shallan's way of seeing the world is not always...healthy. General Reddit 2018 (Aug. 27, 2018) 2 Quote (...) Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] How could Shallan or Lightweavers go back on the Truths they make? And did Shallan do any of that in Oathbringer? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] No, the Cryptics... remember, how the spren is viewing this is very important. The Cryptics have an interesting relationship with truth. Harder to break your Oaths in that direction with a Cryptic. Harder to move forward, also, if you're not facing some of these things and interacting with them in the right way. But, while I can conceive a world that it could happen, it'd be really hard to for a Lightweaver to do some of the stuff. Particularly the ones close to Honor, you're gonna end up with more trouble along those lines, let's say. (...) The Great American Read: Other Worlds with Brandon Sanderson (Oct. 25, 2018) Quote Brandon Sanderson (...) Shallan is coping with her pain in (best I've been able to do) a very realistic way, by boxing off and retreating and putting on a mask of humor and false "everything is okay" attitudes. But she has magical abilities that nobody in this world has, including the ability to put on masks that change the way everyone perceives her. She's playing roles as she puts them on, but I make it very clear (with deliberate slip-ups of self-reference in the prose) that it's always Shallan in there, and she's specifically playing this role because it lets her ignore the things she doesn't want to face. She's losing control of what is real and what isn't--partially because she can't decide who she wants to be, who she should be, and what the world wants her to be. But it's not like other personalities are creeping in from a fractured psyche. She's hiding behind masks, and creates each role for herself to act in an attempt to solve a perceived shortcoming in herself. She literally sketched out Veil and thought, "Yup, I'm going to become that person now." Because Veil would have never been tricked into caring about her father; she would have been too wise for that. I feel it's as close as I can get to realism, while the same time acknowledging that as a fantasy author, one of my primary goals is to explore the human interaction with the supernatural. The "What ifs" of magic. What if a person who had suffered a great deal of abuse as a child COULD create a mask for themselves, changing themselves into someone stronger (or more street-smart who wouldn't have been betrayed that way. Would they do it, and hide behind that mask? What would that do to them and the world around them? (...) General Reddit 2018 (Jan. 12, 2018) 1
Greywatch she/her Posted February 26, 2019 Posted February 26, 2019 Yes, I definitely agree that she's hard to pin down, and with the Truths being the only ones that are different from Oaths (ie. Lightweavers evidently are free to change, possibly making their past Truths no longer true without ruining their progression - because they're not Oaths) - it just means she's not straightforward. To me, she is the most unreliable narrator in the whole series.
Guest Posted February 26, 2019 Posted February 26, 2019 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Greywatch said: To me, she is the most unreliable narrator in the whole series. And that is why I find it so weird, that people tend to take everything she says at face value. Edited February 26, 2019 by SLNC
Greywatch she/her Posted February 26, 2019 Posted February 26, 2019 Just now, SLNC said: And that why I find it so weird, that people tend to take everything she says at face value. I don't think her being unreliable means that we have to assume it's always false. That's not how reading unreliable narrators works.
Guest Posted February 26, 2019 Posted February 26, 2019 1 minute ago, Greywatch said: I don't think her being unreliable means that we have to assume it's always false. That's not how reading unreliable narrators works. Not what I'm insinuating. Simply questioning is enough. It's not black and white.
Greywatch she/her Posted February 26, 2019 Posted February 26, 2019 1 minute ago, SLNC said: Not what I'm insinuating. Simply questioning is enough. It's not black and white. Ah, then I'll consider myself exempt from the rest of this, then.
Thorn Posted February 26, 2019 Posted February 26, 2019 Speaking Truth is imperative to living Truth. The full resolution of internal struggle is not a necessity for personal growth or the Ideal. It's a journey. In many ways, Shallan is the magnifying glass for everyone else. Kaladin irrationally believes he can save/must everyone to the point of depression. Dalinar hides from his past via alcohol. Teft uses drugs to escape his cowardice. They all have masks. They all have lies. Shallan has exponential masks/lies. And with Shallan, she has the greatest power to escape and subvert reality as a Lightweaver. Thus, the Cryptic requires direct confrontation of Truths to bind her to confront reality. She's honestly one of the best written characters by Sanderson, though I can understand and see why some grow frustrated with her. We all want her to have peace of mind, but it's good to remember that it is journey before destination. 6
galendo Posted March 1, 2019 Author Posted March 1, 2019 Thanks to all who responded! (And sorry for the slightly delayed reply. Power and Internet have been sporadic here of late.) There are far too many nice responses here for me to respond to them all individually, but I read through them all and appreciate everyone's thoughts. It's given me some things to think about as I reread WoR and OB. I'm still in the early part or WoR, when Shallan was still my second-favorite character. I'll try to keep some of this in mind as I venture onward and see if it doesn't make Shallan's later chapters somewhat more bearable.
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