Highstorm and spren?

[insert_anagram_here]

So the Highstorm dies down the further it progresses through the land of Roshar right?

Could this be linked to the fact that on the Shadesmar side it's part of the sea and spren can't easily traverse it?

Also, if the moons are causing tidal waves in the oceans of the Physical Realm, would that cause land changes on the Cognitive side?

Thoughts? Please share any links to similar or relevant threads

[Quantus he/him]

Regarding the Highstorm, I doubt it, but mostly because I entirely expect there to be unrevealed Shenanigans happening at The Origin.  But regardless, there are a lot of spren in that part of shadesmar as just about every spren that comes to the physical realm in response to people would be doing so from the bead-seas. 

 

As far as the Moons affecting the land, Id go with a Qualified Yes, in that the Moons would still have normal effects on things and the shadesmar side is a reflection of whatever they are (possibly with some amount of Time Delay as with things getting broken int he real world but remembering themselves in the Cognitive realm). However, there are shenanigans with the shape of the continent that, I think, would be overriding most if not all of the normal tidal processes:  The Continent is moving, but also managing to maintain a very specific fractal shape (a 4D Julia Set Quaternion fractal, to be specific) and since that's a 4D thing, it's changes are presumably following that transform over time even in light of the effects of tides, Continental drift, and the weathering of the storms.  Personally, I think the continent itself is the Sibling (ie the third Bondsmith spren) and is something akin to a giant Cryptic.

[Scion of the Mists]

I don't think that the lessening of the highstorms needs to have anything to do with Shadesmar, or anything magical at all.  Hurricanes (which highstorms are based on) naturally die down as the make landfall and continue on land (due to lack of moisture to sustain them).  

 

As far as the ocean->land dynamic of Shadesmar: Shadesmar represents the Cognitive beliefs of beings in the Physical Realm.  People's perception of where "the ocean" is and where "the land" is doesn't change due to minor, temporary things like waves.  It also doesn't change quickly (similar to the concept of hysteresis).  

However, if there was some sort of cataclysmic event that flooded a city, say, then yes, over time Shadesmar would change to reflect that portion becoming "water" instead of "land."

Edited January 10, 2019 by Scion of the Mists

[RShara she/her]

5 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Also, if the moons are causing tidal waves in the oceans of the Physical Realm, would that cause land changes on the Cognitive side?

To add to what Scion said, the moons are very small, along the lines of Mar's moons, Phobos and Deimos, and move very fast, in a retrograde orbit, so I don't think they'd have nearly as much of an impact as our singular, large, moon does.

[insert_anagram_here]

On 10/01/2019 at 2:47 PM, Quantus said:

unrevealed Shenanigans happening at The Origin.

Thank you for this, I went back and re-read the whole story with Wandersail which I've clearly completely forgotten. It also brought a new question. Would a huge whirlpool in the Physical Realm appear as a huge mountain in Shadesmar? (or could a tidal wave appear as a huge wall?)

On 10/01/2019 at 2:47 PM, Quantus said:

The Continent is moving, but also managing to maintain a very specific fractal shape (a 4D Julia Set Quaternion fractal, to be specific) and since that's a 4D thing, it's changes are presumably following that transform over time even in light of the effects of tides, Continental drift, and the weathering of the storms.  Personally, I think the continent itself is the Sibling (ie the third Bondsmith spren) and is something akin to a giant Cryptic.

What an interesting thought, that would be epic if it turns out true! I personally think that the third Sibling had something to do with stone. (" For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind " Nightwatcher - Sibling - Stormfather) but I have no serious arguments for it really.

On 10/01/2019 at 4:14 PM, Scion of the Mists said:

I don't think that the lessening of the highstorms needs to have anything to do with Shadesmar, or anything magical at all.  Hurricanes (which highstorms are based on) naturally die down as the make landfall and continue on land (due to lack of moisture to sustain them).  

4

Yes, I know that based on real-life examples it doesn't necessarily have to be like this but Roshar is a fictional world there could be a fictional parameter added to the hurricane phenomenon. Also, based on Eila Stele, the Highstorms have changed since the Voidbringers(humans) arrived on Roshar. I'd thought that it could possibly be from the changes they brought to the spren, and since they live in Shadesmar, that the Cognitive Realm might as well played a role into it.

On 10/01/2019 at 4:14 PM, Scion of the Mists said:

"the land" is doesn't change due to minor, temporary things like waves.  It also doesn't change quickly (similar to the concept of hysteresis)

Do we know that this phenomenon applies between Physical and Cognitive Realm or it that a guess?

On 10/01/2019 at 6:48 PM, RShara said:

To add to what Scion said, the moons are very small, along the lines of Mar's moons, Phobos and Deimos, and move very fast, in a retrograde orbit, so I don't think they'd have nearly as much of an impact as our singular, large, moon does.

1

Phobos and Deimos, however small they are they still cause tidal forces on Mars.

[WindrunnerRadiant he/him]

On 1/10/2019 at 5:47 AM, Quantus said:

The Continent is moving, but also managing to maintain a very specific fractal shape (a 4D Julia Set Quaternion fractal, to be specific) and since that's a 4D thing, it's changes are presumably following that transform over time even in light of the effects of tides, Continental drift, and the weathering of the storms.  Personally, I think the continent itself is the Sibling (ie the third Bondsmith spren) and is something akin to a giant Cryptic.

This is a really cool idea, but I find it unlikely.

The two spren that can bond a Bondsmith that we know of are Stormfather in the Highstorm (Physical) and his opposite in Shadesmar's Highstorm (Cognitive). It is most likely that the third spren os reflectes on the third realm we have yet to get a peak onto, the Spiritual.

[Dalakaar he/him]

1 hour ago, WindrunnerRadiant said:

The two spren that can bond a Bondsmith that we know of are Stormfather in the Highstorm (Physical) and his opposite in Shadesmar's Highstorm (Cognitive).

Uh you sure about that and if so where’d you find that out?

[Kon-Tiki he/him]

I think "his opposeite" in Shadesmar is just what's left of him in Shadesmar. Like Windspren, I expect the Stormfather manifests most fully in the Physical Realm, not the Cognitive Realm. Kind of a reverse of only seeing the tongues of Anticipationspren in the Physical Realm or the drool of Angerspren

[Scion of the Mists]

1 hour ago, WindrunnerRadiant said:

The two spren that can bond a Bondsmith that we know of are Stormfather in the Highstorm (Physical) and his opposite in Shadesmar's Highstorm (Cognitive). It is most likely that the third spren os reflectes on the third realm we have yet to get a peak onto, the Spiritual.

What is this about the Stormfather's "opposite in Shadesmar"?  

We know what the three "godspren" are: the Stormfather, the Nightwatcher, the Sibling.  This is confirmed by many WoBs.  

[RShara she/her]

3 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Phobos and Deimos, however small they are they still cause tidal forces on Mars.

Absolutely they do. I was saying, they wouldn't have nearly as much impact as our single large moon does. There'd be a slight tidal shift with each moon, but it'd be pretty small.

[WindrunnerRadiant he/him]

2 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

What is this about the Stormfather's "opposite in Shadesmar"?  

We know what the three "godspren" are: the Stormfather, the Nightwatcher, the Sibling.  This is confirmed by many WoBs.  

I've extensively checked WoB and every mention of the "godspren" in the books and found nothing to suggest that the other "godspren" are necessarliy the ones Bondsmiths bond.

It seems the most likely option though.

2 hours ago, Dalakaar said:

Uh you sure about that and if so where’d you find that out?

You're right, I missunderstood a part from OB

In Ch. 64, Stormfather talks about how Honor's power pierces all three realms. I have no idea how, but ended up underatanding that as Bondsmiths bond a version of the Stormfather reflected across each of the realms.

Thanks for correcting me!

[insert_anagram_here]

14 hours ago, RShara said:

Absolutely they do. I was saying, they wouldn't have nearly as much impact as our single large moon does. There'd be a slight tidal shift with each moon, but it'd be pretty small.

Maybe I should've used 'tides' instead of 'tidal waves' in my original post, something got lost in translation I guess.

This is one thread that I didn't read before ( and the other important one is linked in there).

I've only started going through that but just based on the fact that the moons have an elliptical orbit and the fact that they are 'much much' closer than our Moon (as Peter said) it seems to me that their impact could surely be felt in tidal strength. More so if there is a direct effect on spren (like all the other phenomena fire/rain do to them) and even more so if Shademar landscape gets affected by the tides.

 

Edit:

Following the lead from the thread, from various observations, it seems that the moons have an elliptical orbit, with their periapsis happening at a specific hour every night. Also, Cusicesh appears at exactly seven forty-six in the morning every day, in Kasitor Bay in Iri, looking towards the Origin. After going back and reading that chapter Axies says that the locals even use the sighting to set up their clocks correctly.

If we assume that Axies is using a 10 hour clock, where sunrise and sunset happen at 5, and noon/midnight at 0/10, if Axies was considering timezones (which I would expect him to), this means that 7:46 is his measuring of the local time (CRT-2 = central Rosharan time minus 2 hours)  and not that of the locals. (isn't it weird to reset your clock at 7:46? probably the locals are setting their clocks to 10 even if it's morning for them because they are all using the same centralised time all over the Continent)

If we assume (from the longitude lines on the Coppermind map of Iri) that Kasitor is on a +2 timezone, it would mean that it would be 9:46 at the center of the Continent (and Urithiru right?), which is exactly 4 minutes before noon. The phenomenon lasts for about 10 minutes so it means that Cusiech is gone by 8:05 local time (CRT-2), 10:05 CRT (central rosharan time).

So, what's happening on the dark side of Roshar at this moment? It's midnight, of course, we are in the middle of the ocean and I'm assuming that Nomon is at his apoapsis, the furthest away from Roshar. Since he is the middle and the largest moon, now probably looks the same size as the other two, Salas on the east and Mishim on the west. (it's just that they are all moving a lot slower on this side of the planet when you are looking at the night sky because their elliptical orbit is longer)

Now think of tidal forces, dynamics in Physics, even if three separate forces are minuscule to cause a severe tide, their combination at this hour of the day would cause a force counter to Roshar's gravitational pull. Normally this would create a high tide on the dark side, meaning a low tide on the Continent, as the sea level would drop considerably. 

So, going into complete theory now, either Cusiech is what's canceling the tide, or whatever is canceling the tide makes Cusiech appear on Iri. There are gravityspren on Roshar, recorded by Zen-daughter-Vath (WoR-ch3), so maybe whatever gravitational force happens at the center on the dark side of Roshar at noon, (a huge whirlpool maybe?), has such a great gravitational pull that attracts Cusiech on the other side of the planet.

Thoughts?

 

 

 

Edited January 12, 2019 by insert_anagram_here