recreance reader reactions (spoilers)

[Ripheus23]

14 hours ago, Braizier said:

He did say “these were the first” not “this is when it happened” 

Actually he's melodramatic and says, "These were the first," and then, "These were the last," so who knows what he meant!

[Braizier]

Just now, Ripheus23 said:

Actually he's melodramatic and says, "These were the first," and then, "These were the last," so who knows what he meant!

What!? come on Tanervast! 

[Ripheus23]

Quote

"They are the first," the Radiant said, turning to Dalinar. Dalinar recognized the depth of that voice. It was the voice that always spoke to him in these visions. "They were the first, and they were also the last."

~The Way of Kings, pg. 733 [hardcover edition]

[Rasarr she/her]

3 hours ago, Ripheus23 said:

Actually he's melodramatic and says, "These were the first," and then, "These were the last," so who knows what he meant!

The only way this makes sense to me is "they were the first to Recreance (recreant?), and they were the last Knights Radiant".

[What's a Seawolf?]

This is my biggest and only concern/pet peeve with SA so far, so this may turn into a mini-rant.

Because the Recreance still makes no sense.

Every single Knight Radiant deliberately goes out and kills their spren.  Their constant companion, the one who knows all their secrets, the one who-as the Stormfather explained-holds a closer and more intimate bond than many a spouse.

The KRs killed this-relationships like Kaladin and Syl-because of something that happened multiple MILLENNIA ago?

How in damnation does that make sense?

The last desolation happened over 4,000 years ago.  The first desolation (when humans came to Roshar) was well, well, before that.  Why in creation did the Knights Radiant give a flying cremling of a damnation about that?

Because they not only gave it a thought, but they gave up their powers and killed their dearest companion spren.

The the Stormfather does imply there is more.

“It is more than that.  My memory of all this is … strange.  First, I was not fully awake; I was but the spren of a storm.  Then I was like a child.  Changed and shaped during the frantic last days of a dying god.   But I do remember.  It was not only the truth of humankind’s origin that caused the Recreance.  It was the distinct, powerful fear that they would destroy this world, as men like them had destroyed the one before.  The Radiants abandoned their vows for that reason, as will you.”

But why would even the fear of destroying Roshar cause the KRs to mass murder their spren?  Can't you just stop surgebinding?  We haven't seen any (to my knowledge) overly addicting effects of Surgebinding, where Surgebinders HAVE to use their powers like an addiction.  Can't you-with the massive amount of minds and powers, including an entirely different realm-come up with a different plan?

Even the mass enslavement of the parsh doesn't seem like it would be enough, even coupled with the other possibilities.  I can see it causing significant infighting amongst the KRs, but not mass spren murder and abandonment of duties.

 

The only thing I can think of that makes some sense has to do with bonds.  Specifically, we know Honor was going crazy towards the end.  Maybe somewhere along the line the KRs gave an oath to fight the voidbringers.  But because Honor went crazy and cared only (according to Odium) about the words of the oath and not the meaning behind it, suddenly the KRs were 'Honor bound' to kill humans instead of Odium's forces (mostly parsh.)  I know there are many issues with that train of thought but it's really the only thing I can come up with.

It still doesn't really explain Dalinar's vision of Feverstone Keep.  The KRs lined up, stared the humans there down, and broke their bonds/abandoned their shards.  The way that scene is presented, I always thought it was the KRs way of saying 'screw you guys, you're on your own.'  If my brief theory above is correct at all, I can't see how that scene makes sense.

 

Anyway, rant over.  I really, really hope there is a LOT more to the Recreance then we've been told.

[Braizier]

15 minutes ago, What's a Seawolf? said:

This is my biggest and only concern/pet peeve with SA so far, so this may turn into a mini-rant.

Because the Recreance still makes no sense.

Every single Knight Radiant deliberately goes out and kills their spren.  Their constant companion, the one who knows all their secrets, the one who-as the Stormfather explained-holds a closer and more intimate bond than many a spouse.

The KRs killed this-relationships like Kaladin and Syl-because of something that happened multiple MILLENNIA ago?

How in damnation does that make sense?

The last desolation happened over 4,000 years ago.  The first desolation (when humans came to Roshar) was well, well, before that.  Why in creation did the Knights Radiant give a flying cremling of a damnation about that?

Because they not only gave it a thought, but they gave up their powers and killed their dearest companion spren.

The the Stormfather does imply there is more.

“It is more than that.  My memory of all this is … strange.  First, I was not fully awake; I was but the spren of a storm.  Then I was like a child.  Changed and shaped during the frantic last days of a dying god.   But I do remember.  It was not only the truth of humankind’s origin that caused the Recreance.  It was the distinct, powerful fear that they would destroy this world, as men like them had destroyed the one before.  The Radiants abandoned their vows for that reason, as will you.”

But why would even the fear of destroying Roshar cause the KRs to mass murder their spren?  Can't you just stop surgebinding?  We haven't seen any (to my knowledge) overly addicting effects of Surgebinding, where Surgebinders HAVE to use their powers like an addiction.  Can't you-with the massive amount of minds and powers, including an entirely different realm-come up with a different plan?

Even the mass enslavement of the parsh doesn't seem like it would be enough, even coupled with the other possibilities.  I can see it causing significant infighting amongst the KRs, but not mass spren murder and abandonment of duties.

 

The only thing I can think of that makes some sense has to do with bonds.  Specifically, we know Honor was going crazy towards the end.  Maybe somewhere along the line the KRs gave an oath to fight the voidbringers.  But because Honor went crazy and cared only (according to Odium) about the words of the oath and not the meaning behind it, suddenly the KRs were 'Honor bound' to kill humans instead of Odium's forces (mostly parsh.)  I know there are many issues with that train of thought but it's really the only thing I can come up with.

It still doesn't really explain Dalinar's vision of Feverstone Keep.  The KRs lined up, stared the humans there down, and broke their bonds/abandoned their shards.  The way that scene is presented, I always thought it was the KRs way of saying 'screw you guys, you're on your own.'  If my brief theory above is correct at all, I can't see how that scene makes sense.

 

Anyway, rant over.  I really, really hope there is a LOT more to the Recreance then we've been told.

Very interesting theory. If you’re right and the radients had to suicide their spren to save humanity Maybe Feverstone Keep makes even more sense in that context. The radients charged like they were going to attack then stopped and broke their bonds. Perhaps right up until that moment they were being compelled to go through with violent oaths they couldn’t possibly live with. 

[Ripheus23]

After reflecting on the trajectory of Cultivation and Honor, versus humanity with the Dawnshards on Ashyn, I have started to disbelieve that the Dawnshards are Cultivation's equivalent of the Honorblades. It seems as if Cultivation was not on Ashyn, that is. So there goes that embryo of a theory, I guess...

[TequilaJack]

@What's a Seawolf? My thoughts exactly. The KR abandoning the world due to knowledge of recreance is really dumb at so many levels. 

In modern terms, I'd equate this to European occupation if Asia and Africa. They destroyed local culture and used local populace as slaves or near to that for their own benefit. Now decades later, the emotions have softened and a changed society operates as new structure. I'd assume same applies in Roshar. 

Even if humans we're the Invaders, the KR sould have offered some sort olive branch and found what went wrong in old planet and try to finally way to cooperatively survive. They now don't want to kill Parshmen....but at same time allowing Humans to die for something they we're not even aware of is even more dumbass thing to do. 

Perhaps the Spren committed suicide due to overload of dumbassery. 

Rlain come back to bridge 4 after spying for opposition and this would be the norm. 

You can argue that Odium manipulated stuff but still the actions of KR is just escapism at it's best. 

 

 

[Jace21 he/him]

On 12/27/2018 at 9:21 AM, What's a Seawolf? said:

Anyway, rant over.  I really, really hope there is a LOT more to the Recreance then we've been told.

This is my assumption. As you say, the recreance as it is currently explained to us doesn't make sense on multiple levels.

Knowing how much Brandon plans his books and how logically everything else in the cosmere is, it's a fairly safe bet that we simply don't know the truth yet.

[StrikerEZ he/him]

15 hours ago, Jace21 said:

This is my assumption. As you say, the recreance as it is currently explained to us doesn't make sense on multiple levels.

Knowing how much Brandon plans his books and how logically everything else in the cosmere is, it's a fairly safe bet that we simply don't know the truth yet.

I think the Recreance as explained makes sense, though I do agree there are plenty of layers and nuances to it that we don’t quite understand yet.

[Dalakaar he/him]

The Recreance as it stands doesn’t make sense for a 100% loss of knights. Knowing it isn’t your world and you’re arguably on the bad guy team could and would wreck morale as a whole but not wholesale. There would be many I’d argue that would look to alternatives beyond “I’m getting some cigs don’t wait up” and never coming back. It makes some sense but the impact it has as presented doesn’t match up with the expected results given human behaviour. 

[Calderis he/him]

4 minutes ago, Dalakaar said:

The Recreance as it stands doesn’t make sense for a 100% loss of knights. Knowing it isn’t your world and you’re arguably on the bad guy team could and would wreck morale as a whole but not wholesale. There would be many I’d argue that would look to alternatives beyond “I’m getting some cigs don’t wait up” and never coming back. It makes some sense but the impact it has as presented doesn’t match up with the expected results given human behaviour. 

Which is why I think the recreance was actually the spren's idea. 

It makes a lot more sense for the knights to have followed through if their spren were the ones convincing them to do it.