The lack of proper "on screen" wedding ceremonies in cosmere books

[Messydesk]

Sooo since the small note I made on my latest Brandon meme post sparked an interesting conversation about wedding ceremonies and how they go wrong so often in the cosmere books I thought starting its own thread would be appropriate.

So far I think only Raoden and Sarene's final wedding in Elantris has been the only wedding ceremony we've seen "on screen" without getting interrupted or shortened to "we have this person here to witness us saying yes". At first I thought it funny how something always happened to interrupt the ceremony (and even though I felt bad for Sarene in the beginning of the book I did chuckle at the fact we skipped her wedding because her husband had "died"). After getting invested to the characters, especially Adolin and Shallan, through multiple books and see their relationship develop and build up little by little I do wish to see a proper wedding ceremony where the characters can have one day of happiness together without fights or embarrasment...

@Elandera brought up a good point (in the meme thread) about wedding ceremonies being boring to read if they follow the same formula we see in real life and thus they are skipped to save pages for more important and interesting events in the books. Personally I would still consider the wedding ceremonies interesting content since they are happening in a different culture and the inner thoughts of characters we are used to seeing in trouble or battles are interesting to read in this kind of life changing situation. I liked the description of a Survivorist wedding ceremony. And of course, the other characters' reactions and interactions with the couple would be fun to read about.

Of course, I don't think making the wedding ceremony short is always bad, I really liked how Dalinar and Navani did it in their circumstances. But I guess I'm just still salty about Adolin and Shallan's wedding getting cut off right when it was getting good:'D I know Oathbringer was already a mammoth-of-a-book but still;_; (I was going to write "to fit it in we can throw away--" but couldn't find anything to end the sentence with since I love the whole book>_>)

Anyway, what do you think? Will we ever see a proper on screen wedding ceremony with detailed descriptions and that won't go wrong or otherwise get interrupted in the cosmere again:D? Or maybe we could get a wedding ceremony on screen and the after party would get absolutely destroyed?

(Also sorry for any typos, I'll fix stuff later if needed, I'm writing this in a hurry>_>)

[Calderis he/him]

Honestly? I hope not. You can have fun at the reception. You can have fun in the lead up. The ceremony itself is just... A formality. 

I'm perfectly alright with "it happened, let's move on" 

[goody153]

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Anyway, what do you think? Will we ever see a proper on screen wedding ceremony with detailed descriptions and that won't go wrong or otherwise get interrupted in the cosmere again:D? Or maybe we could get a wedding ceremony on screen and the after party would get absolutely destroyed?

Probably No. It is like how Sanderson does not write the actual sex scenes(only the kissing that leads to it or the aftermath) and just leave us to our imaginations. Besides significance of weddings even in fiction are about putting all the cards in the table with that person. The ceremony is not that important.

Besides i don't actually commonly read weddings in fantasy tbh (except maybe red wedding from you know where lol). It is much more common in visual medium of story telling 

[Mailnaise she/her]

I think if Brandon really made cultural changes to the weddings we all know it would be a great addition to any book. I love his worldbuilding, and a twist on a wedding would be great. If he wasn't planning on something different for it, I don't know I could take it or leave it. 

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

2 hours ago, goody153 said:

Probably No. It is like how Sanderson does not write the actual sex scenes(only the kissing that leads to it or the aftermath) and just leave us to our imaginations. Besides significance of weddings even in fiction are about putting all the cards in the table with that person. The ceremony is not that important.

Besides i don't actually commonly read weddings in fantasy tbh (except maybe red wedding from you know where lol). It is much more common in visual medium of story telling 

I tend to disagree. I think the ceremony is important, or at least, it reveals important things about the culture in which the book takes place.

For instance, years ago I read a series set in the late Roman Empire. During the course of the series, a major character is married twice, and each time she opts for a different type of marriage contract. The first ceremony is for the most binding type of marriage, and the ceremony itself includes promises of love and devotion for life. The second is far less binding, can be easily dissolved with divorce, and the ceremony’s vows are more about dowry obligations than promises of love. By showing the ceremony—even if not every line of dialogue is repeated—we learn a lot about Roman society and the characters. 

[Ripheus23]

Sanderson is just saving his ultimate-marriage-scene for a later book.

[theCrossoverManiac]

8 hours ago, goody153 said:

Probably No. It is like how Sanderson does not write the actual sex scenes(only the kissing that leads to it or the aftermath) and just leave us to our imaginations. Besides significance of weddings even in fiction are about putting all the cards in the table with that person. The ceremony is not that important.

Besides i don't actually commonly read weddings in fantasy tbh (except maybe red wedding from you know where lol). It is much more common in visual medium of story telling 

Actually, I always thought that Brandy Sand didn't write sex scenes because of his religion (which I share). Also, if we could read something like a short story detailing a Rosharan/Scadrian/Sel/Nalthis wedding, that would be a wonderful tidbit of world building.

[Elandera she/her]

It all depends on the relevance to the story. In the meme forum, someone brought up the Parks and Rec wedding. While I don't watch the show, I feel there's some difference between on-screen weddings and book weddings, especially when world-building an explanation has to be included. It's fairly easy to breeze over the details of a ceremony in movies/TV/books when it's a ceremony that most people already understand. That allows you to focus more on the emotion and funny bits without it becoming unnecessarily long. I feel that going through the what and why of a fantasy culture's wedding ceremony (especially if it's long and intricate) can be a bit much when you're also trying to include the emotion. It could get long or boring pretty quickly.

On 12/19/2018 at 8:20 AM, TwiLyghtSansSparkles said:

For instance, years ago I read a series set in the late Roman Empire. During the course of the series, a major character is married twice, and each time she opts for a different type of marriage contract. The first ceremony is for the most binding type of marriage, and the ceremony itself includes promises of love and devotion for life. The second is far less binding, can be easily dissolved with divorce, and the ceremony’s vows are more about dowry obligations than promises of love. By showing the ceremony—even if not every line of dialogue is repeated—we learn a lot about Roman society and the characters.

In this instance, it sounds like having the ceremonies represented and explained is a little more important to the plot. It's the same with the Dalinar/Navani wedding. Since it broke with tradition and then became part of the problems Dalinar faced, it had a reason to be there. However, I don't think (aside from appeasing the romantic side of the readers) there was much of a purpose in including the Shallan/Adolin wedding.

Learning the cultural aspect of true Vorin ceremonies would be interesting for the worldbuilding aspect, but what other purpose is there?

However, this is also my own opinion. I tend to shy away from romance in general in my own writing since I don't think it's usually that interesting.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

1 hour ago, Elandera said:

On 12/19/2018 at 9:20 AM, TwiLyghtSansSparkles said:

 

In this instance, it sounds like having the ceremonies represented and explained is a little more important to the plot. It's the same with the Dalinar/Navani wedding. Since it broke with tradition and then became part of the problems Dalinar faced, it had a reason to be there. However, I don't think (aside from appeasing the romantic side of the readers) there was much of a purpose in including the Shallan/Adolin wedding.

Learning the cultural aspect of true Vorin ceremonies would be interesting for the worldbuilding aspect, but what other purpose is there?

However, this is also my own opinion. I tend to shy away from romance in general in my own writing since I don't think it's usually that interesting.

Roshar has been heavy on—and praised for—the worldbuilding thus far, which is why the fact we didn’t get to see a traditional Vorin wedding disappointed me. We know what it looks like when a couple breaks tradition, thanks to Dalinar and Navani; Shallan and Adolin could have showed us what keeping traditions looks like. 

As for the series I referenced, the two Roman weddings were more included for character development and worldbuilding purposes. The fact the second marriage could be easily dissolved doesn’t really come into play; it was suggested by the woman’s father as he didn’t trust the man she married. Showing Adolin and Shallan’s wedding would have been a fantastic opportunity to show us if and how the Vorin Church responds to Dalinar’s son keeping with religious tradition even as Dalinar installs a heretic on the throne. It could have set the tone for the next book and even foreshadowed some of the conflict. 

[Ripheus23]

23 hours ago, theCrossoverManiac said:

Actually, I always thought that Brandy Sand didn't write sex scenes because of his religion

That and he would have to go into 2000+ centuries of worldbuilding detail to explain the positions, names, systems of magic than are based on/accessible in the act, internal philosophical monologues and plot twists revealed during the interlude, etc. and each scene would be 100 pages long, which would be the most awkward thing in history perhaps.

Edited December 20, 2018 by Ripheus23

[theCrossoverManiac]

On 12/20/2018 at 2:14 PM, Ripheus23 said:

That and he would have to go into 2000+ centuries of worldbuilding detail to explain the positions, names, systems of magic than are based on/accessible in the act, internal philosophical monologues and plot twists revealed during the interlude, etc. and each scene would be 100 pages long, which would be the most awkward thing in history perhaps.

Wait. There are systems of magic out there based on sex? But what of Adonalsium and the Shards? Is there a Shard called Voyeurism out there? (And what's its opposite? Chastity? Control? Self-Discipline?)

[Ripheus23]

4 minutes ago, theCrossoverManiac said:

Wait. There are systems of magic out there based on sex? But what of Adonalsium and the Shards? Is there a Shard called Voyeurism out there? (And what's its opposite? Chastity? Control? Self-Discipline?)

I hope not, but if there were explicit scenes of this character in the Cosmere books, I suppose t'would be so.

[Kureshi Ironclaw]

I think Brandon will show a wedding ceremony when it reveals something or foreshadows something that cannot be shown anywhere else in the story. He talks a lot in his writing lectures about scenes serving multiple functions and I doubt a marriage scene which only does a bit of worldbuilding around marriages, and shows some characters' internal reactions, would satisfy that for him. There would have to be something important in the ceremony, like a clue that foreshadows a later reveal, to make it worthwhile. I don't want to speak too much on Brandon's behalf but I understand how he puts together his stories. If we know the wedding is going to go ahead without a hitch, we don't need to be shown it because the wedding scene won't advance any plotlines. We only need to be shown a wedding scene if something goes wrong, like with Wax and Steris, because that actually moves the plot forward.

Don't get me wrong though. I would have liked to see Shallan and Adolin's wedding. It would have been a nice denouement to wind down at the end of Oathbringer. But the book was simply too big to fit it (though at the size it was, what would another 3000 word scene do eh?).