Amaram's Flutes

[Smye]

Anybody else get the heeby-jeebies when Shallan heard about Amaram's collection of flutes within just a few pages of Wit bringing up the flute Kaladin lost?

 

All I can think of is that either:
A) Wit's flute will end up among Amaram's collection to resurface later

or

In his work with the Sons of Honor, Amaram or his fellows have stumbled across some flute-related magic or splinterization and his flutes are the brethren and sistren of Wit's flute.

 

Thoughts?

[Seloun]

Huh, I completely missed that connection. I remember thinking it was just another indication of how un-Alethi Amaram was (i.e. the stormwarden script). Given where Amaram's been hanging out during WoR, I can definitely see Amaram ending up with Hoid's flute. I would be surprised if this is anything more than serendipity though (i.e. option A). Don't think anyone else has brought this up; nice catch.

[Smye]

In thinking more about recent WoB regarding non-magic users accessing Shadesmar here, here, here, and, most imporantly here:

 

 

 

mycoltbug
Is there a magic system that best allows people to world hop between worlds?

Brandon Sanderson
Yes, but it isn't needed. Some do help more with understanding how to traverse the Cognitive Realm.

 

I keep coming back to the flutes. Given everything we know about investiture being deposited into non-living objects (Nalthis, etc), I'm guessing Hoid's flute in Amaram's hands is going to prove very ill for all. Thoughts?

Edited December 12, 2014 by Smye

[RawToast225]

I think it's a flute.

[Secret Ardent Man]

That's interesting to have a music-themed way of travelling to Shadesmar, but it makes some sense, since we know that humming is part of how to make Soulcasters work. Humming and music? We're starting to see the pattern here....

[Smye]

Not to mention the apparent merging of the physical, spiritual, and cognitive realms when Hoid played the flute for Kaladin that seems to go beyond simply lightweaving. I wonder if it's connected to the merging that takes place in WOR when Kaladin speaks the third oath "Behind Kaladin, frost crystalized on the ground, growing backward away from him. A glyph formed in the frost, almost in the shape of wings."

[Blaze1616]

In thinking more about recent WoB regarding non-magic users accessing Shadesmar, I keep coming back to the flutes. Given everything we know about investiture being deposited into non-living objects (Nalthis, etc), I'm guessing Hoid's flute in Amaram's hands is going to prove very ill for all. Thoughts?

 

Can you link the WoB you are talking about?

[Lord Tavash Shar]

I wonder if a Flute thinks of itself cognitively as a flute or as a stick.........

[Smye]

Blaze - fixed.

 

I also suppose that even if you're right and magic is, in fact, required for access to Shadesmar, the flute itself could be invested by Hoid or others and thus be a tool for non-uber-invested types.

 

I know Blaze that you believe the WOB above decribes superior vs inferior ways of reaching Shadesmar, but I disagree.

 

OR it's not related to bringing its holder to Shadesmar at all, but somehow still resting in Amaram's collection for later significance.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Smye

[Moogle]

I think the flutes are just there to show Amaram is someone who chafes against Vorin gender customs. He wants to write like a woman, he probably just wants to play music as well.

 

I mean, I guess it's possible they're magical, but I'm not really seeing it.

[Oudeis]

I do find it interesting... Amaram is shocked to learn that any Herald could look unAlethi, and literally refuses to believe a Herald could be darkeyed. He buys into Vorinism so greatly, he'll break the world trying to restore it to prominence. Why would he chafe against the gender restrictions that are such a part of Vorinism? An interesting dichotomy. Does he not think the Arts are integral to Vorinism? Why not? How do we reconcile the indisputable fact of the flutes with the seeming contradiction of Amaram's obsession with Vorinism?

[Blaze1616]

I do find it interesting... Amaram is shocked to learn that any Herald could look unAlethi, and literally refuses to believe a Herald could be darkeyed. He buys into Vorinism so greatly, he'll break the world trying to restore it to prominence. Why would he chafe against the gender restrictions that are such a part of Vorinism? An interesting dichotomy. Does he not think the Arts are integral to Vorinism? Why not? How do we reconcile the indisputable fact of the flutes with the seeming contradiction of Amaram's obsession with Vorinism?

 

Perhaps it is merely a means of hiding his involvement with the Sons of Honor. Who would expect it of him, given his lifestyle indicates his opinions do not align with them? After all, who would suspect the person who owns three dogs of being a cat person?

[Oudeis]

Perhaps it is merely a means of hiding his involvement with the Sons of Honor. Who would expect it of him, given his lifestyle indicates his opinions do not align with them? After all, who would suspect the person who owns three dogs of being a cat person?

 

An interesting theory belied somewhat by the location; he keeps the flutes locked up in his secret "I am obviously a Son of Honor" room.

[Blaze1616]

An interesting theory belied somewhat by the location; he keeps the flutes locked up in his secret "I am obviously a Son of Honor" room.

 

Mm, good point. Perhaps he is having a conflict of "faith." Or perhaps is testing his faith. Or perhaps its a requirement of all members to dabble in the opposite gender's roles (assuming women can even join the Sons of Honor). Wild conjecture is fun.

[RawToast225]

You know what it probably is? Amaram is a Nancy boy. He keeps his womanly habit of playing the flute (music being a feminine art) hidden in his secret room of mystery of wonder.

[lol_king]

The gender system was not a part of vorinism initially, and still not but it is so ingrained in the society that the two seem inseparable. Note that the ardents don't follow the gender system. And the gender system was created to control the sbardblades (there's a WoB on that somewhere), and is based on a book and does not originate from vorinism. Now Amaram seems pretty knowledgeable about the history, desolations and probably knows the reasons for the gender restrictions and probably thinks there's no reason to be bound by them.

Edited December 15, 2014 by lol_king

[Oudeis]

I don't think you're correct... Vorinism, like all religions, has grown and changed over time. For example, the Radiants were once revered, and have since been cast down. Then Vorinism turned into the Hierocracy, and thereafter into the Devotaries. Vorinism has changed, and one of those changes was the addition of the cultural belief in the Feminine versus Masculine arts. It's notable that only Vorin kingdoms follow these precepts.

 

And yes, the Ardents follow different rules. The Ardents are also property. Priests in religions typically hold to a different set of morays than followers.

[lol_king]

What i meant was that vorinism wasn't the source of division of feminine and masculine arts so Amaram is not actually going against his vorinism. for example if vorinism had a source book like Bible or quran, it wouldn't say that men and women should have exclusive duties.

The main point being that Amaram is knowledgeable enough to know that by following what are known as feminine arts he's not going against his belief in vorinism. Jasnah too didn't like the gender restrictions.

The ardents let the people follow their beliefs of feminine arts & masculine arts and changed their system of devotaries and callings accordingly, but they didn't want to restrict themselves so they said ardents don't have gender, or that's how i imagine it went in the beginning, I mean there's no one to question ardents on right or wrong is there. All speculation of course.

[Edgedancer]

I don't think you're correct... Vorinism, like all religions, has grown and changed over time. For example, the Radiants were once revered, and have since been cast down. Then Vorinism turned into the Hierocracy, and thereafter into the Devotaries. Vorinism has changed, and one of those changes was the addition of the cultural belief in the Feminine versus Masculine arts. It's notable that only Vorin kingdoms follow these precepts.

 

And yes, the Ardents follow different rules. The Ardents are also property. Priests in religions typically hold to a different set of morays than followers.

The Sons of Honor want to restore Vorinism to its strenght, you know when the Heralds were still around and woman could be Radiants, it seems logical that they dislike changes in the religion they connect with its decline. As such they might even view getting rid of gender roles to be their duty and necessary in their quest to restore Vorinism´s rule.

[Oudeis]

Jasnah too didn't like the gender restrictions.

 

...Jasnah is maybe not the best example of a strict Vorin.

[RawToast225]

I'm going to hold to my Nancy boy theory. Amaram soft like a woman deep down.

[lol_king]

...Jasnah is maybe not the best example of a strict Vorin.

I know, i was just going for another character who doesn't like gender restrictions, but you're right, thinking back on it as she is an atheist it is kind of like against the point i was trying to make. So never mind, ignore that line.

[AerionBFII]

I'm going to hold to my Nancy boy theory. Amaram soft like a woman deep down.

Hahaha he'll be playing depressing music on his flute in a dark room in SA3 now he knows nobody likes him

[Smye]

HA! From the AMA

 

Mr. Sanderson,

Thank you so much for your marvelous work and for your prolific nature. I'm so grateful that you report loving what you do so deeply as it means I get to read what I love so often. And thank you for regularly returning to the AMA!

My question for you is this - I got the heeby-jeebies when Shallan heard about Amaram's collection of flutes within just a few pages of Wit bringing up the flute Kaladin lost?

All I can think of is that either: A) Wit's flute will end up among Amaram's collection to resurface later or In his work with the Sons of Honor, Amaram or his fellows have stumbled across some flute-related magic or splinterization and his flutes are the brethren and sistren of Wit's flute.

Is either of these the case? Or is there some other significance to Amaram's collection of nigh forbidden flutes?

 

[–]mistborn[S] 1 point

6 days ago  

It is significant. It is not a huge deal, but it is significant.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Smye