Dalinar the politician and the Vorin church

[Mah'alleinir he/him]

10 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

Again, Vorinism does not define who the "Voidbringers" are. Jasnah learns after a lot of research that the Parsh were the Voidbringers. People do not know that.

Also Odium was probably leading the Humans during the first Desolation. So he could say that there was only one true desolation instead of 99. Then Humans betrayed the Almighty and created the traiterous Knights Radiant to fight against their God. But now they have time to right their wrongs by joining him.

 

 

Yeah, but don't you see how all of this is dependant of focusing on the letter rather than the spirit of the claims?

[Diomedes]

14 minutes ago, Mah'alleinir said:

Yeah, but don't you see how all of this is dependant of focusing on the letter rather than the spirit of the claims?

But Odium probably did lead humans during the first Desolation, the spirit is intact.

You think there is some mystical bond binding Humans and Ardents to the real Honor, but there is none. He could tell them that there are some details of the story that people got wrong over the millenia, but the spirit: Knights Radiants are the traitors, Odium is the "good" god, is intact.      

[Mah'alleinir he/him]

4 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

But Odium probably did lead humans during the first Desolation, the spirit is intact.

You think there is some mystical bond binding Humans and Ardents to the real Honor, but there is none. He could tell them that there are some details of the story that people got wrong over the millenia, but the spirit: Knights Radiants are the traitors, Odium is the "good" god, is intact.      

In favor of keeping a civil discussion I will simply point out that you don't know what I think.That if that's what you get from what I'm saying you're simply wrong and I'm gonna ask you to not be so arrogant as to believe your reasoning leads inevitable to the truth of what I think. Don't stay on that track.

What I'm saying is that Vorinism teaches that the desolations were terrible wars between humankind and voidbringers. From what you can get humans≠voidbringers according to Vorinism, doesn't matter if it's true or not. Is what they believe. SO the god humans call Almighty in Vorinism can't be the same god the voibringers have and thus it's irrelevant to the point the fact that they've changed gods and sides. Claiming he is the Almighty through such technicality when it's against Vorinism teachings would be breaking the spirit while sticking to the letter

[Diomedes]

1 hour ago, Mah'alleinir said:

In favor of keeping a civil discussion I will simply point out that you don't know what I think.That if that's what you get from what I'm saying you're simply wrong and I'm gonna ask you to not be so arrogant as to believe your reasoning leads inevitable to the truth of what I think. Don't stay on that track.

I am sorry, if I offended you somehow, that was not my intention.

I am not saying you are simply wrong, I offer arguments to you. Arguments you can disagree with. 

 

1 hour ago, Mah'alleinir said:

What I'm saying is that Vorinism teaches that the desolations were terrible wars between humankind and voidbringers. From what you can get humans≠voidbringers according to Vorinism, doesn't matter if it's true or not. Is what they believe. SO the god humans call Almighty in Vorinism can't be the same god the voibringers have and thus it's irrelevant to the point the fact that they've changed gods and sides. Claiming he is the Almighty through such technicality when it's against Vorinism teachings would be breaking the spirit while sticking to the letter

I think we are talking past each other here.

There was a terrible war called the first Desolation, in which Odium was leading the Humans against Voidbringers. That part is TRUE (probably), and is in line with the teachings of Vorinism. An Almighty God leading Humanity against a vicious foe. It matters that it is true because  this way Odium is not lying, when he says he was leading them during the desolation. What is true and what the Ardents believe matches up. Thus, the spirit of the letter is not broken. 

Now Vorinism does not define who the Voidbringers are. It could be anyone, literally. It could be Dalinar, it could be the Parshendi, or some type of spren. What the Vorins believe to be voidbringers is not defined.  Because there is no definition, everything could fit. The only definition existing is that they are the enemies of the Almighty. 

Vorins believe that the voidbringers do not have a god. So if a god shows up, it has to be the Almighty. 

What Odium would claim is that he truly is the Almighty, they have been praying to him all those millenia. They felt close to him when they prayed. Because this guy called Honor is dead, but your God the Almighty is alive. Thus, I, Odium have to be the Almighty. 

It does not matter, if some teachings appear to be wrong. Odium will tell them that the Heralds were actually agents of Honor, not of him, the "Almighty". That Humans betrayed him, that there was only one desolation, not 99. That Humans fought against him  long wars that later generations called "desolations". These are all facts, just told from Odiums`s perspective. Odium is not lying. It is just a matter of definition, what is defined as Voidbringer, Desolation, God. This change of definitions will lead in a revolution in the Vorin beliefs. 

But  the center of the beliefsystem is the existence of god and him leading humanity. Everything else is secondary. And that center is matching up with the reality of the first Desolation.  

I hope I explained myself better. 

 

 

Edited October 30, 2018 by Diomedes

[Mah'alleinir he/him]

34 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

I am sorry, if I offended you somehow, that was not my intention.

I am not saying you are simply wrong, I offer arguments to you. Arguments you can disagree with. 

None taken, it just seemed you were arguing against what you thought I thought instead of what I was argumenting. I shouldn't have answered that roughly, sorry for that. I just hate people saying "this is what you think" when I know for a fact it isn't.

Spoiler

I think we are talking past each other here.

There was a terrible war called the first Desolation, in which Odium was leading the Humans against Voidbringers. That part is TRUE (probably), and is in line with what Vorinism teaches. An Almighty God leading Humanity against a vicious foe. It matters that it is true because  this way Odium is not lying, when he says he was leading them during the desolation. What is true and what the Ardents believe matches up. Thus, the spirit of the letter is not broken. 

Now Vorinism does not define who the Voidbringers are. It could be anyone, literally. It could be Dalinar, it could be the Parshendi, or some type of spren. What the Vorins believe to be voidbringers is not defined.  Because there is no definition, everything could fit. The only definition existing is that they are the enemies of the Almighty. 

Vorins believe that the voidbringers do not have a god. So if a god shows up, it has to be the Almighty. 

What Odium would claim is that he truly is the Almighty, they have been praying to him all those millenia. They felt close to him when they prayed. Because this guy called Honor is dead, but your God the Almighty is alive. Thus, I, Odium have to be the Almighty. 

It does not matter, if some teachings appear to be wrong. Odium will tell them that the Heralds were actually agents of Honor, not of him, the "Almighty". That Humans betrayed him, that there was only one "desolation", not 99. These are all facts, just told from Odiums`s perspective. Odium is not lying. This will lead in a revolution in the Vorin beliefs. 

But  the center of the beliefsystem is the existence of god and him leading humanity. Everything else is secondary. And that center is matching up with the reality of the first Desolation.  

I hope I explained myself better. 

Spoiler tags for length's sake.

Spoiler

Some things I believe might be relevant to your reasoning.
Although it is true that the first desolation (and maybe more, not sure if we have a specific number) was between humans led by Odium vs Singers led by Honor & Cultivation (probably, we don't know for certain if the whole thing wasn't more mixed from the begining, I think), the word voibringer was created by the Singers to refer to those who fought (and have brought with them) the Void (as they assume Humans brought the Void=Odium).
So up until things reversed Desolations were a fight between Singers and Voidbringers(humans). I believe only the first one might have been that well delineated. maybe not even that one. We have evidence that at least in the "last one" (I think it was) there were humans still fighting for Odium.
As you point out Vorinism doesn't provide a definition for voidbringer but it's a term they hijacked from the Singers and was still used to refer to who followed Odium, at least inittially.
I'm not sure we can claim Vorinism doesn't believe Voibringers had a god for sure but I do think we can garantee that they don't know humans once were the voidbringers. 

Anyway I'm devating because even if you were right about everything you say, I just fail to see how exploiting such technicalities isn't going against the spirit of the letter.
Yes, he could dance around a lot of facts and such to make the Ardents believe he is the god they based their religion on but the fact is that's not true at all. Ardents may not know it and he could use such thing but that would be being dishonest.
I mean exploting loopholes, letting people assume things that are not true or partially true while not lying directly is exactly what breaking the spirit while keeping the letter means to me.
And I think that that's where we seem to disagree.
What would you say that would mean to break the spirit whilst keeping the letter intact?

Edited October 30, 2018 by Mah'alleinir
Space cleaning for better formating

[Diomedes]

47 minutes ago, Mah'alleinir said:

Anyway I'm devating because even if you were right about everything you say, I just fail to see how exploiting such technicalities isn't going against the spirit of the letter

It does not matter, where the term "voidbringer" originated from. It only matters that Odium`s definition and the Ardent`s definition align. That definition would be for "Voidbringer": Everyone who fights against me the Almighty. Therefore Odium is not fooling the Ardents, since they agree on that definition. The same goes for the definition of "Desolation". Odium tells them: Only the first one was a proper desolation, a time when everyone else called you falsly "voidbringers". Because I, the Almighty, was leading you. If Ardents and Odium agree on that definition, the spirit is not broken. The same again for the term "the Almighty". Both parties agree that they mean Odium, thus nobody is deceived.  

47 minutes ago, Mah'alleinir said:

Yes, he could dance around a lot of facts and such to make the Ardents believe he is the god they based their religion on but the fact is that's not true at all. Ardents may not know it and he could use such thing but that would be being dishonest.

Well what is the basis of any religion? Is it really historical events? If that would be the case later generations would not know, what religion is right or wrong. No, the basis for any religion is a feeling of revelation, the feeling of the presence of a god. That is how you are supposed to know that your religion is truthful. Odium would argue that their religion was indeed based historically on a guy called Honor and his heralds, who deceived people into revering him and twisted a lot of facts. But their religious feeling for a god leading humanity was justified. It just happened to be that the guy who initiated the religion was not actually god, he, Odium, was the cause for their religious feelings.    

 If tomorrow a literal god would come down to planet earth in a ray of light, who can break the laws of physics, would tell christians (or muslims or jews): "I am your lord, your creator. It just happens that 60% of the stuff in the bible is not actually true. But 40% are totally true." Would Christians be dismayed or believe that they had been wrong all this time? No! they would celebrate, congratulate themselves and think that all this time there was actually a guy hearing their prayers, even if some of the stuff in the bible is not true; Same would go for the Ardents.  

Edited October 30, 2018 by Diomedes

[Mah'alleinir he/him]

2 hours ago, Diomedes said:

It does not matter, where the term "voidbringer" originated from. It only matters that Odium`s definition and the Ardent`s definition align. That definition would be for "Voidbringer": Everyone who fights against me the Almighty. Therefore Odium is not fooling the Ardents, since they agree on that definition. The same goes for the definition of "Desolation". Odium tells them: Only the first one was a proper desolation, a time when everyone else called you falsly "voidbringers". Because I, the Almighty, was leading you. If Ardents and Odium agree on that definition, the spirit is not broken. The same again for the term "the Almighty". Both parties agree that they mean Odium, thus nobody is deceived.  

Well what is the basis of any religion? Is it really historical events? If that would be the case later generations would not know, what religion is right or wrong. No, the basis for any religion is a feeling of revelation, the feeling of the presence of a god. That is how you are supposed to know that your religion is truthful. Odium would argue that their religion was indeed based historically on a guy called Honor and his heralds, who deceived people into revering him and twisted a lot of facts. But their religious feeling for a god leading humanity was justified. It just happened to be that the guy who initiated the religion was not actually god, he, Odium, was the cause for their religious feelings.    

 If tomorrow a literal god would come down to planet earth in a ray of light, who can break the laws of physics, would tell christians (or muslims or jews): "I am your lord, your creator. It just happens that 60% of the stuff in the bible is not actually true. But 40% are totally true." Would Christians be dismayed or believe that they had been wrong all this time? No! they would celebrate, congratulate themselves and think that all this time there was actually a guy hearing their prayers, even if some of the stuff in the bible is not true; Same would go for the Ardents.  

I was on the same track you are about the importance of where the term originated and that's why I said "...even if all that is right.." and proceeded to my actual point.
But know we seem to be on different tracks again. You even ignored the question I made that was fundamental to my point.

I conceed that he could, theoretically, make most of those claims without beeing untruthful.
Assume that he could tell all those things and based on the ignorance of the ardents, the vagueness of their terms and little knowledge of the actual events, he could get them to his side. Now answer this:
Would you agree that the fact is Vorinism is a religion that begun worshipping Honor and it's him who they mean by the Almighty? I mean, they worshiped the Heralds and those are of Honor, they had, for a time, the Radiants in high esteem, and those are his too. How on damnation saying the things you claim that he needs to say would not be breaking the spirit while keeping the letter?
If the real origin of Vorinism is aligned with Honor, Odium would need to outright lie in the claims you say he'd use!
Why do you understand by break the spirit whilst keeping the letter?

I guess the only why you could still have a point is by proving that Vorinism actually originated with Odium and the claims he would have to make about Honor, his Heralds and Knights are all factually true... but remember that the desolations where usually so destructive prior to the Radiants that almost all info was lost, I guess they could survive a couple but... from the first and then be hijacked by Honor as you would have Odium claim? To twisted, man.

Lastly, I don't think your parallel with Earths religions works as Vorinism could (and rather seems to) actually be factually based

[Diomedes]

9 hours ago, Mah'alleinir said:

Would you agree that the fact is Vorinism is a religion that begun worshipping Honor and it's him who they mean by the Almighty? I mean, they worshiped the Heralds and those are of Honor, they had, for a time, the Radiants in high esteem, and those are his too. How on damnation saying the things you claim that he needs to say would not be breaking the spirit while keeping the letter?
If the real origin of Vorinism is aligned with Honor, Odium would need to outright lie in the claims you say he'd use!
Why do you understand by break the spirit whilst keeping the letter?

Now, it is you who is ignoring my points ,

I argued that the historical origin of a religion is different from the reason people belive in it.

Vorinism, historically, was based on the worship of Honor. But it does not need to be in future. Odium can say that  indeed a lot of the stuff you, the Ardents, thought was true is not. (The Heralds etc.). Point is the "new" religion based on Odium looks a lot like old Vorinism, with some alterations. This is important because it makes it easy for the Ardents to switch to the new religion. 

9 hours ago, Mah'alleinir said:

Lastly, I don't think your parallel with Earths religions works as Vorinism could (and rather seems to) actually be factually based

Well, then pretend christianity would be facts based.

Then,  tomorrow on the 1.11.2018 literal Jesus Christ comes down to Earth, telling the people that St. Paul twisted his message and some major parts of the doctrin are not true.  Would christians believe in him? (Yes, they would, because he can break the laws of physics and stuff) And they would go on to pretend that they had known it all along that certain parts of their religions were wrong.

Odium does not need to inhibit people`s ability to lie to themselves.      

Edited October 31, 2018 by Diomedes

[StrikerEZ he/him]

30 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

Now, it is you who is ignoring my points

Actually, you’re the one missing their point:

10 hours ago, Mah'alleinir said:

How on damnation saying the things you claim that he needs to say would not be breaking the spirit while keeping the letter?
If the real origin of Vorinism is aligned with Honor, Odium would need to outright lie in the claims you say he'd use!
Why do you understand by break the spirit whilst keeping the letter?

This is the main point of their argument: How can you think that Odium could be keeping the spirit of the religion while leaving out most of the facts on purpose?

To Mah’alleinir: I think you are mixing two things together. Shards only have to stick to the spirit of a PACT, something that was an agreement between two people (but even that is open to loopholes if either party sees something as sticking to the spirit, even though the other party doesn’t see it that way). Odium never made a pact with the Vorin church, so he’s not breaking it and can lie all he wants.

[Diomedes]

4 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

This is the main point of their argument: How can you think that Odium could be keeping the spirit of the religion while leaving out most of the facts on purpose?

Because he is not doing this. He is laying down ALL the facts.

He is creating a "new" religion based on Odium. Let`s call it Odiumism. And the Ardents join this new religion, because the old religion seems to be almost the same as old Vorinsm.

The Ethics are the same (big deal), the guy in charge of Humanity is called the Almighty, there was a Desolation. He is essentially selling a new spin on the same facts, by redifining all religious terms. 

Point is his story is as much true as is Vorinism`s story.

Actually his story has more facts to it because there weren`t 99 desolations, Honor died and so on.     

Then being converted to Odiumism the Ardents will lie by telling themselves that they felt the presence of Odium all along for millenia. This is fine by Odium, because he is not telling a single lie.   

Edit: Now that I think about it, not even the Ardents are actually lying to themselves. During present times the Ardents are Odium worshippers. Because their ethics are all about Odium and not at all about Honor. Their religion morphed over the millenia from a Honor worshipping religion to an Odium worshipping one. Because their ethics changed. 

Edit 2: I think our misunderstandig is a result on what is defined as a "religion". For you guys the facts of it`s historical inception is key, which determine the understanding of religious doctrin in present times, 

For me it`s all about what a religion has become, and what their code of ethics is, what they want to say with their stories.  

Edited October 31, 2018 by Diomedes

[Mah'alleinir he/him]

11 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

To Mah’alleinir: I think you are mixing two things together. Shards only have to stick to the spirit of a PACT, something that was an agreement between two people (but even that is open to loopholes if either party sees something as sticking to the spirit, even though the other party doesn’t see it that way). Odium never made a pact with the Vorin church, so he’s not breaking it and can lie all he wants.

I think you might be right about this but just to be certain, I seem to recall that in his conversations with Dalinar Odium claims to be (always) sincere and, at least gave me the impression, that he insinuates he doesn't/can't lie. Maybe he is intentionally mixing this things with the fact that he would keep the spirit of a pact in order to trick humans into believing he can't lie. And if he can lie how do we know if it's true what he says about the spirit of a pact (there may be a WoB, I haven't looked)

To Diomedes: 
Spoiler tagg contains arguments against you before reading your last edit

Spoiler

 

Quote

Now, it is you who is ignoring my points ,

You say that but did not answer what you understand by breaking or keeping the spirit of what one says, still.

It doesn't matter what Ardents know, ignore or believe that happened, all it matters is that they factualy worship Honor and Vorinism started as His religion.
If this is true then whatever Odium says to convince them is breaking the spirit of what the religion is funded on.

Your Christianity comparission fails. To make it accuarate you would need to have some god that christianity doesn't mention and he would need to have been the first leader of humankind and you would need Yahveh to be absolutly dead, and this other god coming and LYING about the orginins of CHRISTIANITY by twisting it's origin and merging it with the fact that he was human's first god.

The point being that if Vorinism was funded as a religion that worshiped Honor he would know it. And exploiting ignorance from the ardents and mixing what little they know about the past with some facts that play in his favor, would be LYING, not by the letter but yes by the spirit.

 

I'm still leaving them because till this point I don't think you where actually making that argument at all. I think either I didn't get it, you failed to present it that way, or you changed your argument.
So as I see them as different argument I think my answers till this point are still valid against what you were previously saying

For the point you make on your last edit I could buy that way of keeping the spirit and winning the ardents over (or some at least,) if you can make the case that modern Vorinism is more aligned with Odium than Honor. And Odium would only be keeping the spirit if he would explain that, although they started as Honor's religion, they've been following his way for "x" time now. And he could use the fact that humanity started on his side in his favor.

I mean, if he lies by omitting the bit of Vorinism begining with Honor (if this is actually true), I'd still think he would be breaking the spirit.
I say this 'cause, imagine we both lived in USA, and imagine we sign a contract in wich you provide some service for me and in exchange I'll pay you a million dollars. Suppose it's written exactly like that and that there are no laws about the default currency of exchange inside USA (I don't know if there actually are).
Now, when I pay you I do so in NZD, that are worth around 0,6 USD. I would technically be keeping the letter but if I knew you were thinking USD when signing, I'd be breaking the spirit

Edited October 31, 2018 by Mah'alleinir
Corrections

[Calderis he/him]

4 minutes ago, Mah'alleinir said:

I think you might be right about this but just to be certain, I seem to recall that in his conversations with Dalinar Odium claims to be (always) sincere and, at least gave me the impression, that he insinuates he doesn't/can't lie. Maybe he is intentionally mixing this things with the fact that he would keep the spirit of a pact in order to trick humans into believing he can't lie. And if he can lie how do we know if it's true what he says about the spirit of a pact (there may be a WoB, I haven't looked)

Shards, can absolutely lie. And from what we've seen they are very much bound specifically by what they believe their promise to mean. If the agreement is not made explicit, and they believe that what they have agreed to is different than what the other party thinks the agreement means... 

Mistborn spoilers. 

Spoiler

This is precisely how Ruins Betrayal of Ati was possible at all. Per Leras. 

Quote

’m so sorry,” Kelsier whispered.

  “Oh, Senna . . .” Preservation whispered. “I’m losing this place. Losing them all . . .”

  “We are going to stop it,” Kelsier said, pulling back.

  “It can’t be stopped. The deal . . .”

  “Deals can be broken.”

  “Not these kinds of deals, Kelsier. I was able to trick Ruin before, lock him away, by fooling him with our agreement. But that wasn’t a breach of contract, more leaving a hole in the agreement to be exploited. This time there are no holes.”

 

They are also capable of lying to themselves. 

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

In universe, all the intents and charts and names, who names them? Do they name themselves?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

I have kind of imagined this is one of those things that they certainly have influence over. But obviously Odium thinks that he's named something other than what he is, and I feel like these are intrinsic things that the sixteen all knew. Like, "I am missing this part of me, it is this." And it was less we went around the names more like this is just what it is. And various shards are resisting that, but the others are all like this is what you represent. 

Billy Todd, Moderator [PENDING REVIEW]

Follow-up question there. Would the entity that we call Odium refer to itself as Odium when it's honest with itself?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Ehhh, I don't think Odium is capable of being honest with himself. [laughter] There are times where Odium has called himself Odium. That is more out of convenience and the fact that everyone calls you by a name. But Odium is determined to change that perception. 

Billy Todd, Moderator [PENDING REVIEW]

So, does he genuinely believe in characterizing himself as Passion?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes. Part of him does.

Billy Todd, Moderator [PENDING REVIEW]

Has he always ever been Odium since the Shattering?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

source

Trusting a shard to hold to the spirit of an agreement is trusting them to interpret that agreement in exactly the same way you do. 

[Mah'alleinir he/him]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Shards, can absolutely lie. And from what we've seen they are very much bound specifically by what they believe their promise to mean. If the agreement is not made explicit, and they believe that what they have agreed to is different than what the other party thinks the agreement means... 

Mistborn spoilers. 

  Hide contents

This is precisely how Ruins Betrayal of Ati was possible at all. Per Leras. 

 

They are also capable of lying to themselves. 

Trusting a shard to hold to the spirit of an agreement is trusting them to interpret that agreement in exactly the same way you do. 

I'm sorry but I disagree. Exploiting loopholes in a contract is what breaking the spirit means. Nevermind if it's a loophole you were specifically aware when making it or one you found later.

Have you (not just Calderis, you people) read Dresden Files? Interactions with the Fae dance around this kind of things all the time.

The only way I can see to get a situation in wich either side would think the other broke the spirit while said one would think he didn't, would be if both sides genuinely had different ideas of what the contract meant and also was oblivious to the other's side idea of the contract. And I don't see that happening with any shard but I guess time will tell.

Also, Leras never claims he sticks to the spirit of his agreements, Odium does (don't know if it applies to the spirit of his claims too) but if ge CAN lie we don't really know if he trully keeps the spirit of his words/agreements.

[Calderis he/him]

36 minutes ago, Mah'alleinir said:

'm sorry but I disagree. Exploiting loopholes in a contract is what breaking the spirit means. Nevermind if it's a loophole you were specifically aware when making it or one you found later.

Have you (not just Calderis, you people) read Dresden Files? Interactions with the Fae dance around this kind of things all the time.

That's exactly my point. Taravangian was a fool to take Odium at his word.

Edit: another example. Odium uses the pact that the Vessels swore (which we don't know the wording of) to target Shards that have settled together for breaking it, as a justification. In the letters, Endowment seems to imply that it's a non-interference pact. 

Quote

Paladin Brewer [PENDING REVIEW]

Out of all the Shards, why does Odium go for Devotion and Dominion?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

He targets people with two kinds of ideas. Number one, he can argue they're breaking the rules they set out. And two, people he thinks are a good match for him, or a challenge, or a danger.

source

But then we have this about Honor 

Quote

Mason Wheeler [PENDING REVIEW]

One of the Letters in Oathbringer suggests that the Shards had a pact to all go their separate ways. And some of them held to it and some of them didn't?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

Mason Wheeler [PENDING REVIEW]

Out of all of them, how is it possible that one of the ones that didn't is the one whose nature is to obsessively keep your word at all costs?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

He would argue that he kept his word.

Mason Wheeler [PENDING REVIEW]

Okay, so loophole.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

He wouldn't even call it a loophole.

source

 

Edited November 1, 2018 by Calderis

[Mah'alleinir he/him]

10 minutes ago, Calderis said:

That's exactly my point. Taravangian was a fool to take Odium at his word. 

I don't know how but I totally got it backwards, sorry! HAHA

[Calderis he/him]

4 minutes ago, Mah'alleinir said:

I don't know how but I totally got it backwards, sorry! HAHA

Nah, I wasn't as clear as I could have been. You also posted as I was in the middle of editing in another argument .